Shinji Kagawa

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Mad Winger said:
Nah, he's just acting like a typical Japanese. Even if he won POTY, he'd still be humble as hell. It's just how their culture is.

Having said that, I do think Japanese football players in general struggle with confidence. Their national team is a perfect example of this. Despite being very skilled, they can be massive bottlers at times. If the opponent scores the first goal, then the game is almost 100% lost, even if the goal was scored in the first minute and the opponent is much weaker.
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Kind of explains his awe about our numerous comebacks earlier in the season.

Ill take your word for it on the first paragraph. I can't say I have any first hand knowledge about Japanese personalities. I'd like to see him believe in himself more on the pitch though (he doesn't necessarily have to talk himself up in interviews).
 
Walrus said:
I prefer hearing that to Antonio "I am pleased with my contribution" Valencia.
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Did he say that? :eek:

I thought he said something about a disappointing season and not being right after his injury? He had a shocker this season so I'd be surprised if he was pleased!
 
Valencia said that he was disappointed with his game, but happy to get so many minutes. Which is only natural given how shit he's performed for the majority of the season.
 
My views:
- We are going to stick with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 at least for league games.
- I still rate Rooney as more important than Kagawa to the team. So if it is a choice between then, Rooney plays.

Which brings us to the problems...
1. I don't want him to play as a winger. It is not his preferred position and we would just be spoiling his career there.
2. In the middle with Carrick might be an Option, but with Cleverly lurking closely and we also seem to be in the market for Strootman/Fabregas kind of players...which creates question mark for him in the middle.

Though I want him the succeed here, I cannot shake the small bad feeling that he will be a (skillful) misfit to our side a la Berbatov.
 
Playing wide left in a 4-2-3-1 does not mean him playing as a winger. Is this really that hard to understand?
 
Fruit Cake said:
My views:
- We are going to stick with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 at least for league games.
- I still rate Rooney as more important than Kagawa to the team. So if it is a choice between then, Rooney plays.

Which brings us to the problems...
1. I don't want him to play as a winger. It is not his preferred position and we would just be spoiling his career there.
2. In the middle with Carrick might be an Option, but with Cleverly lurking closely and we also seem to be in the market for Strootman/Fabregas kind of players...which creates question mark for him in the middle.

Though I want him the succeed here, I cannot shake the small bad feeling that he will be a (skillful) misfit to our side a la Berbatov.
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What do you mean "stick with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1"? I thought we had been playing 4-2-3-1 MOST of the matches.

I don't think Rooney is as inventive as Kagawa, nor as good at link-up play. However if you mean that Rooney is more of a talisman, then fair enough. That said, I think Rooney has burned his bridges with many fans. Personally, I think he should leave because he doesn't make ENOUGH difference on a consistent basis, and for me he is holding back the likes of Kagawa and Chicharito.
 
Fruit Cake said:
My views:
- We are going to stick with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 at least for league games.
- I still rate Rooney as more important than Kagawa to the team. So if it is a choice between then, Rooney plays.

Which brings us to the problems...
1. I don't want him to play as a winger. It is not his preferred position and we would just be spoiling his career there.
2. In the middle with Carrick might be an Option, but with Cleverly lurking closely and we also seem to be in the market for Strootman/Fabregas kind of players...which creates question mark for him in the middle.

Though I want him the succeed here, I cannot shake the small bad feeling that he will be a (skillful) misfit to our side a la Berbatov.
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He'll be a misfit if you don't allow him to shine which is what you implicitly allude to in your post. Fair enough, you see Wayne as a more integral player but if Kagawa's form as a no.10 is better than Wayne's in the same position, I think it's quite obvious who should start. It's harsh enough scoring a hat-trick but not playing the next game or be directly involved in two goals and get subbed shortly after the second. Your framework is flawed to me because you're assuming Moyes will go with the a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 setup when we have the slightest clue what he will do.

He can play on the left wing if he's allowed to operate as a wide forward/LAM rather than hugging the touchline. Ideally, we will see the best of Kagawa in the hole. However, we can still make use of him as long as our players trust his ability in tight spaces and make good runs off of him. He's the ultimate team player but you'll see him be more selfish when he's more confident. It doesn't mean we have to build the side around him but he needs to be an integral part of our attack. Playing the safe pass to him in deeper areas does little to maximise his influence in the final third.
 
manusteve said:
What do you mean "stick with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1"? I thought we had been playing 4-2-3-1 MOST of the matches.
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Platato said:
Your framework is flawed to me because you're assuming Moyes will go with the a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 setup when we have the slightest clue what he will do.
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Fair point, but I thought it was a safe assumption, considering our historical reliability on wingers. Last season all out wingers decided to take a communcal break, so we were playing 4-2-3-1. Let's say this season both Valencia and Young are on form, the chances are that we will switch back to 4-4-1-1.

If the wankathon gets real and we do get back Ronaldo...it'll thrown things back into chaos! I love that kind of chaos!!!!
 
Fruit Cake said:
Fair point, but I thought it was a safe assumption, considering our historical reliability on wingers. Last season all out wingers decided to take a communcal break, so we were playing 4-2-3-1. Let's say this season both Valencia and Young are on form, the chances are that we will switch back to 4-4-1-1.

If the wankathon gets real and we do get back Ronaldo...it'll thrown things back into chaos! I love that kind of chaos!!!!
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Feel free to assume mate. We haven't got to pre-season yet. We'll know more then and when the season starts.
 
Fruit Cake said:
Fair point, but I thought it was a safe assumption, considering our historical reliability on wingers. Last season all out wingers decided to take a communcal break, so we were playing 4-2-3-1. Let's say this season both Valencia and Young are on form, the chances are that we will switch back to 4-4-1-1.

If the wankathon gets real and we do get back Ronaldo...it'll thrown things back into chaos! I love that kind of chaos!!!!
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If SAF was still in charge I would say to you that your "chances are that we will switch back to 4-4-1-1" is totally wrong. Do you not watch enough football to see that a 4 across the midfield will not win you the Champions League even if it may win the Premier League.

To me 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 are the same thing, you are always going to expect one striker to move around and drop anyway.

You may be right that SAF played 4-2-3-1 mostly last season because of the wingers' injuries and lack of form, but I think he realised the fullbacks give plenty of width anyway and more invention comes with having a 3 behind RVP.

All that said, it's up to Moyes and we all await his preferred formation. I just hope it's not to string 4 across midfield because that formation is extinct.
 
Do they have to shoehorn Jose into every article FFS?

-
 
Platato said:
Shinji

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...490&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Does anyone know how to grab the full text without the images? Thank you.
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Manchester United’s Japanese star Shinji Kagawa has made his first move to impress new manager David Moyes by offering to cut short his holidays to join the club on tour this summer.
Kagawa – who had a mixed debut season at Old Trafford – is due to be given extra time off in July as he is about to spend three weeks playing for his country in the Confederations Cup and hasn’t yet had a break following the conclusion of his Barclays Premier League campaign.
But Sportsmail understands that the 24-year-old has offered to join Moyes and his squad for the Japanese leg of United’s pre-season tour as a gesture of goodwill.


He follows new Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho, who claimed that he could start the pre-season campaign already.
'I don't need a holiday. I'm sorry we don't start training tomorrow!' said the Portuguese boss.
Kagawa will in all likelihood not be fit enough to play in games in Tokyo and Osaka but is keen to meet Moyes, train with the squad and help United with the promotional obligations they have to their raft of sponsors in that part of the world.
Visiting Japan without Kagawa would hamper United’s efforts to make that leg of the tour a resounding success, something the player took in to account when making his decision.

The former Borussia Dortmund forward is hugely popular in his home country and just having him on the bench or in the stands for games against Yokohama Marinos on July 23 at Nissan Stadium and Cerezo Osaka on three days later at Osaka Nagai Stadium will ensure the stadiums are full for those games.
Several years ago, for example, United’s former South Korea star Park Ji-sung sat on the bench for a United pre-season game in Seoul.
Even though he wasn’t fit enough to play he was still given the man-of-the-match award by the local sponsors just for the way he waved at the stadium cameras from the sidelines.
Kagawa scored six league goals for United last season but his efforts were hampered by a knee injury. Just last week he said he hoped to learn from United team-mates Wayne Rooney and Robin van Persie and improve his levels for Moyes next season.
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Oh ok that article answers it. Can't wait to watch him play for Japan.
 
Fruity Cake said:
Fair point, but I thought it was a safe assumption, considering our historical reliability on wingers. Last season all out wingers decided to take a communcal break, so we were playing 4-2-3-1. Let's say this season both Valencia and Young are on form, the chances are that we will switch back to 4-4-1-1.

If the wankathon gets real and we do get back Ronaldo...it'll thrown things back into chaos! I love that kind of chaos!!!!
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Valencia will have to be in a ridiculous form to be played as a winger with Moyes here. Moyes prefers using narrow wingers like Zaha/Nani/Young/Kagawa.

Moyes prefers playing 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 which means Valencia and Rooney are going to have to stay in form to get games if they stay.
 
Several years ago, for example, United’s former South Korea star Park Ji-sung sat on the bench for a United pre-season game in Seoul.
Even though he wasn’t fit enough to play he was still given the man-of-the-match award by the local sponsors just for the way he waved at the stadium cameras from the sidelines.
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Bizarre.
 
I remember that game aswell, every now and again the tv cameras would cut to Park on the bench, and the whole stadium would start cheering and blowing hooters, it was fantastic :lol: he looked so embarrased/flattered it was surreal.
 
I think that preference for playmaking narrow wingers might actually make things easier for Rooney. I've always thought he was underrated coming in from a slightly wider position. With Nani out of form, he's probably the best crosser of the ball in our squad, for one thing. In the highlights video in the Carrick thread alone, you can see four or five exceptional crosses from Rooney. And he tends to find that yard or so of extra space which he needs (compared to someone like Kagawa whose exceptional first touch lets him work best in the tighter central spaces) if he drifts just a shade wider.

So given that the dodgy form of our wingers and the fact that Moyes might not favour Valencia leaves an opening in the wide spaces, we might expect something like this:

Carrick Midfielder​
Nani Kagawa Rooney​
RVP​
​
That looks fairly Moyes-esque to me, with space for the full-backs to provide the width. It also has the advantage of playing everyone, for me, in a position that genuinely suits them. Nani is on his best wing. Kagawa is central. Rooney has a bit of space but essentially has the licence to go as far forward/deep and as wide/narrow as he wishes, which is always the best way to use him in my opinion.​
 
Brightonian, I think we're selling Nani so Valencia will probably there. Other than that, your formation looks good.
 
Platato said:
Brightonian, I think we're selling Nani so Valencia will probably there. Other than that, your formation looks good.
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Cheers. That would be fine too. It might not go entirely against Moyes' principles anyway. His preference for narrow wingers has more to do with letting the full-backs attack very wide than with the wingers themselves, and Valencia and Rafael both hugging the touch-line has actually always worked brilliantly. That's partly because of how good Valencia is (when in form) at finding the right little flick or lay-off to let Rafa burst past the defender. That little lob with the outside of his boot that he does so often is :drool:
 
Annahnomoss said:
Valencia will have to be in a ridiculous form to be played as a winger with Moyes here. Moyes prefers using narrow wingers like Zaha/Nani/Young/Kagawa.

Moyes prefers playing 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 which means Valencia and Rooney are going to have to stay in form to get games if they stay.
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Moyes played Coleman on the right wing for about half of this season and most of last season. As a winger he's very similar to Valencia. Hugs the touchline, knocks it past the defender and gets crosses in.

However in general I agree/hope that Moyes will at least be more open to a different style. SAF liked to build our style around Valencia somewhat, with him holding the width and getting crosses in. Even when Valencia was off form he was picked because he was crucial to that style. I like Valencia and he can be a great option if he can sort out his head, but yeah, we shouldn't be so regularly reliant on that style of play.
 
Brightonian said:
Cheers. That would be fine too. It might not go entirely against Moyes' principles anyway. His preference for narrow wingers has more to do with letting the full-backs attack very wide than with the wingers themselves, and Valencia and Rafael both hugging the touch-line has actually always worked brilliantly. That's partly because of how good Valencia is (when in form) at finding the right little flick or lay-off to let Rafa burst past the defender. That little lob with the outside of his boot that he does so often is :drool:
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How often have you watched everton? Are these their general tactics? It seems Moyes likes to adopt tactics based on the opposition.
 
Was completely anonymous in the 2nd half against Brazil (started watching the game then). I kept asking is he playing cause I couldn't remember him touching the ball. Hope next 2 games go better for him.
 
Shimo said:
Was completely anonymous in the 2nd half against Brazil (started watching the game then). I kept asking is he playing cause I couldn't remember him touching the ball. Hope next 2 games go better for him.
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He was anonymous throughout the game. If, however, he played in the middle, where space was to be taken advantage of, we probably would have seen a better performance. Japan also lack a great striker, so there is a lot of pressure on Honda and Kagawa to create passing angles.
 
He had a better first half but he wasn't helped by the fact some of his teammates seemed overawed by the occasion.
 
Shimo said:
Was completely anonymous in the 2nd half against Brazil (started watching the game then). I kept asking is he playing cause I couldn't remember him touching the ball. Hope next 2 games go better for him.
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I'm sure they will - opposition doesn't come much harder, after all. And as Platato said a lot of his teammates - who to be fair simply don't have the same experience of playing at this level - weren't at their best.
 
Platato said:
How often have you watched everton? Are these their general tactics? It seems Moyes likes to adopt tactics based on the opposition.
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I'm sure he will. Let's face it, with almost every coach coming to a top club everyone predicts that they'll shape their new team to look like their old team, and they never do. But his Everton side is the best evidence for his preferences that we have, so we might as well speculate based on that.

Having watched the highlights of the Brazil-Japan match, I think Kagawa actually did pretty well. He did virtually nothing wrong, and all of Japan's good attacks seemed to come from a lovely bit of play from him. Their problem, for me, is playing Honda centrally and Kagawa out wide. For me, Honda has the skill set that would look just as good from a wider position, Ronaldo-style, whilst Kagawa would be able to be so much more influential in his preferred #10 spot. But they can't do that at the moment because of their lack of a great central striker. Honda has to play centrally otherwise they have no serious goal-threat in the middle, and there's not much point in Kagawa being there if the best he has to feed balls to is Okazaki (all due respect to him - on his day he's decent, but his Stuttgard drought is translating to his national form at the moment). Find a great central striker, and you can push Honda out wider and let Kagawa pull the strings from #10.
 
I think he'll have a big season. It takes time for a player to adapt to the Premier League and everything that surrounds it, but when you add in injury problems etc, that obviously becomes more difficult. Towards the end of the season he began to show glimpses of what he is capable of - especially in the Norwich and West Ham games.

Technically he is superb, and he has all the attributes needed in my opinion. He's an intelligent player with good energy, he can spot a run and his own runs are excellent, he is tidy on the ball, he can play his way out of tight areas, and I think we will see more of a goal threat from him next season.

As for his position, I'm not to sure. Obviously his best position is in a central role. That's where he played for Dortmund, and his skill set indicates that it's his best position. That said though, when he did play there earlier on in the season, I thought he looked a bit lost there at times. Although that can be excused to some extent due to the circumstances that surrounded him at that time. Playing him on the left gave him a bit more freedom, and allowed him to learn the game that little bit more without the 'hustle and bustle' of playing centrally. In Europe he may play centrally, domestically he may start on the left, but I don't think there is really a set position for him at this moment in time.
 
Playing him wide was often the right decision when we did it, because as you say it took him a while to settle in and it was easier for him to do that out in space on the wing rather than in the middle with all the responsibility. Plus one of our best players plays there, so he was unlikely to instantly get the position.

That said, his best football in the latter third of the season when he looked more settled in came from that #10 position, and for me there's absolutely no doubt that he should be an automatic starter there next season. I actually prefer Rooney in a nominally wide position from which he can move about to his heart's content. Good #10's are quite disciplined about sticking to their position, whereas Rooney is best with the freedom to fill different roles as he sees the need develop.
 
Yeah, I agree with that. I don't think anyone is guaranteed a spot in the side next season, but he has to be in pole position for that #10 slot for me. Like I said, last season was very much a transitional one for Kagawa, and once he overcame those obstacles injury wise and got himself out on the field, he showed what he can do. He has that understanding of where the space is, and when you look at the players we have in the midfield area, I think he complaments our style of play well.

Great thing about this though is that we have options, and that was the difference between ourselves and City last season for me. We have the players to adapt to any sort of situation, depending on the opposition etc. I have made my feelings on Wayne Rooney quite clear in the past and I genuinely hope he stays at the club, but Kagawa offers us that little bit more for me in an attacking sense, and as I say, he complements what already have and how we try and play.

At the end of the day he has the attributes to play in any attacking role, and as I say, I think we will see a lot more of him this season.
 
Brightonian said:
I'm sure he will. Let's face it, with almost every coach coming to a top club everyone predicts that they'll shape their new team to look like their old team, and they never do. But his Everton side is the best evidence for his preferences that we have, so we might as well speculate based on that.

Having watched the highlights of the Brazil-Japan match, I think Kagawa actually did pretty well. He did virtually nothing wrong, and all of Japan's good attacks seemed to come from a lovely bit of play from him. Their problem, for me, is playing Honda centrally and Kagawa out wide. For me, Honda has the skill set that would look just as good from a wider position, Ronaldo-style, whilst Kagawa would be able to be so much more influential in his preferred #10 spot. But they can't do that at the moment because of their lack of a great central striker. Honda has to play centrally otherwise they have no serious goal-threat in the middle, and there's not much point in Kagawa being there if the best he has to feed balls to is Okazaki (all due respect to him - on his day he's decent, but his Stuttgard drought is translating to his national form at the moment). Find a great central striker, and you can push Honda out wider and let Kagawa pull the strings from #10.
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We are agreeing too much
 
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