I tend to agree. Like him as a player and he had issues last year so its not fair to judge him yet - hopefully he kicks on this year. If he wants to be a regular he needs to. Was anonymous in a fair few games - understandable perhaps given he's moved to a new league and a new system - although his form picked up at the end of the season.
Shinji Kagawa
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I tend to agree. Like him as a player and he had issues last year so its not fair to judge him yet - hopefully he kicks on this year. If he wants to be a regular he needs to. Was anonymous in a fair few games - understandable perhaps given he's moved to a new league and a new system - although his form picked up at the end of the season.
Kagawa isn't better then Rooney - I think a lot of people just seem has as the best untapped potential we have in our squad - especially after a Summer in which we saw him be quite brilliant for Japan. Because of this, there is an (understandable) eagerness for us to use him in his favoured position and give him the chance to reach a very high level when playing there.
It is also fair to say that Kagawa (or the idea of Kagawa) would bring a totally different style/attributes to that position then Rooney does. Rooney is excellent at finding space for himself (and a shot) and spreading the play wide, as well as making the good runs at the right time. Kagawa would, in theory, offer us a bit more creativity and a vision of pass in tight areas that Rooney isn't quite as good at - which is why I was really hoping he would be brought on against Chelsea - as it's those types of scenarios that you would hope a player like Kagawa could influence, as there are very few players in our squad (probably him and maybe Nani?) who are capable of producing something extremely creative in tight games.
It is also fair to say that Kagawa (or the idea of Kagawa) would bring a totally different style/attributes to that position then Rooney does. Rooney is excellent at finding space for himself (and a shot) and spreading the play wide, as well as making the good runs at the right time. Kagawa would, in theory, offer us a bit more creativity and a vision of pass in tight areas that Rooney isn't quite as good at - which is why I was really hoping he would be brought on against Chelsea - as it's those types of scenarios that you would hope a player like Kagawa could influence, as there are very few players in our squad (probably him and maybe Nani?) who are capable of producing something extremely creative in tight games.
Whether these posters are eager for him to play his natural position or not, doing so means dropping Rooney or shifting him out of position which if we accept Rooney is the better player is not going to happen, so the point remains. We are stuck with trying to fit him in some other way unless he's happy being a rotation player or an impact sub. Hence the majority wanting him deployed wide left tucked in which means he is in competition with Nani, Valencia, Young and Zaha. This raises separate issues on fitting everyone in and what is the best selection for the team.
I think that sums up the sentiments of many of Kagawa's advocates perfectly, good post.
Sadly their whole logic is flawed plainly because they want him played there ahead of a better footballer.
There's no reason why both can't play in the same team. Play Kagawa on the left and Rooney in the centre and I am sure they are both intelligent enough players to interchange and supply RVP
Rooney is the better player, but that doesn't mean he's better in the number 10 role.
What does this even mean? Rooney is a #10! What other role would he play?
Which is probably where the Rooney transfer nonsense comes into play... ultimately, Kagawa has done nothing to justify starting ahead of Rooney at the moment (he's probably not even match-fit yet), and Wayne himself has made a good start to the season.
However, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting - for example in the game on Monday - us to utilise the bloke when we're struggling to break things down. For instance, taking Welbeck off for Kagawa and putting Rooney out wide would have given us a change in approach that I think we could have used.
Unless Kagawa proves through his chances that he is a better option to play behind RVP, then Rooney should play there - however, we should also be using him as an option there, or indeed an option from the wing perhaps, when games aren't going our way - as he offers a different skill-set to the rest of our current squad.
It's pointless debating this mind... it'll be Fellaini who is going to be starting there fairly soon anyway.
Are we still allowed to make that joke?
Are we still allowed to make that joke?
Indeed, I was quite baffled by the introduction of Giggs.
Kagawa hasnt shown anything close to what he's capable of here at United. His performances for Dortmund were on another level. He'l take time getting used to the system so I think its unfair to him to simply brand Rooney the much better footballer specially when we're discussing who'd be better in the role to play behind RVP.. I understand where you're coming from though as Rooney's done it for much longer but I see no reason why Kagawa cannot better Rooney as a No 10 for us. But as with any player, he'l need to earn that spot and its a long tough road ahead.
As Akash said though, I dont see why they need to compete anyways. With the kind of left winger Moyes likes, both Kagawa and Nani are ideally suited. Really think both of them and Rooney should play behind RVP in a fluid system.
If they brought the same skill set and approach to the team's football then your reply might not itself by flawed, as it is however the matter remains a subjective one.
It shall be a damned waste of £17m and two years if Kagawa is never able to prove his worth here.
A forward.
I agree with Cina with regard to Rooney being the better player, but I also agree with gza. Rooney's best form came in the second half of 10/11, where he showed incredible vision and play, playing as a #10. I think that Kagawa, however, is a better #10. His vision is superior, he's more agile, and more importantly, his weight of pass is visibly better.
Rooney and Kagawa play the same position. You can't say "he's better than him at this very particular role", because it's still the same fecking position that they're competing to play in!
I don't think Rooney is better than Kagawa as a number 10, I think Rooney is the better player though. Rooney's shown before that he's world class and Kagawa hasn't yet. It isn't a very complicated viewpoint.
Rooney is a better player than kagawa. Can't put it simpler than that.
People are desperate for Kagawa to succeed due to Rooney being an enormous cnut and the tiny little AM's are in fashion these days.
People are desperate for Kagawa to succeed due to Rooney being an enormous cnut and the tiny little AM's are in fashion these days.
Actually, I can. Rooney can play as a lone striker or #10 very well, but Kagawa excels in certain tasks that Rooney struggles in when playing as a #10...
They both play behind the striker, the same position, therefore only one of them can play there. Rooney is the better player, therefore he should play there. Kagawa being a "better #10" means feck all.
Rooney is a better overall player but in the position they both usually play in I think Kagawa is better, therefore Kagawa should play there. How does me thinking Kagawa being better in the position they're competing for mean feck all?
What's Rooney's best position?
I think it used to be as a number 10, but I'd much rather see him up top from now on.
I definitely think it's as a #10, or a #9.5 I guess in Rooney's case, either way it's behind the striker, like Kagawa.
The fact Rooney is the better player isn't the only reason why he is starting, though. He's been playing for us for a while now and is capable of protecting himself and shielding the ball against "physical players", whereas Kagawa isn't used to it. I'd have Rooney (if he stays, which is likely) playing behind Van Persie. My point is that Kagawa is a natural #10 - there is a big difference between how he plays and how Rooney plays.
I just think Rooney is far too inconsistent for that role as a #10 anymore. When on top form he's obviously great there, but recently we haven't seen that very often. I don't think in a position that is responsible for a majority of the creativity in our team that Rooney is consistent enough to demand that role. Rooney's stats are always good, and they'll stay good if we moved him up top as well. I just think a United side with Kagawa behind a striker could be more fluid and consistent than one with Rooney.
It could be - if he can do what he needs to do to play in that role.
The problem Moyes has at the moment is that even if Rooney isn't on top form 10 games out of 10, for the 6 or 7 that he is, he's a much more influential player as it stands than Kagawa appears to be.
Kagawa may me the answer, but he needs games and needs to nail down the place hwen he gets his chance with real top drawer performances. if he can do that then great, he deserves to be one of the first names on the team sheet.
Can Kagawa play to a level to his at Dortmund in a team that is surrounded with players who are generally less mobile than his former teammates ? A good passer needs movement in front of him for him to showcase his art, at Utd it's the biggest weakness of the offensive aspect, the lack of quality of movement.
You sure its the movement up front thats the problem?. RvP, Chica, Rooney, Wellbeck all move well. Im more concerned with our movement out wide being the biggest problem.
Our movement is fine. This is one thing that I don't like about this thread. Blame everything and everyone except Kagawa himself.
The problem isn't so much the position he's played an but the style the team plays. Kagawa excels in a team that plays narrow and direct offensive football. At Dortmund the 3 AMs and the striker would all push into the box and the fullbacks would be situative wingers. Thus there were always team mates making runs and options for short passes. Every bit of spaces he'd win them potentiall had a huge impact.
Here a German tactics site dissected one of Dortmund's (with Kagawa) attacks from build-up to finish.
http://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/29/die-spielzuge-des-jahres-dortmunds-herauskippender-sechser/
Most of you don't speak German and google translate probably won't help either but I think the sketches alone are enough to illustrate what I'm talking about.
Imo that's what turned Kagawa from a decent, talented player into a great player for Dortmund. United however (at least up until now) play a completely different style of football that does not emphasize Kagawa's strengths and demands skills that he's rather mediocre at, so while sticking him behind van Persie would certainly help him perform better I don't think it would turn him into the same footballer he was for Dortmund.
Here a German tactics site dissected one of Dortmund's (with Kagawa) attacks from build-up to finish.
http://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/29/die-spielzuge-des-jahres-dortmunds-herauskippender-sechser/
Most of you don't speak German and google translate probably won't help either but I think the sketches alone are enough to illustrate what I'm talking about.
Imo that's what turned Kagawa from a decent, talented player into a great player for Dortmund. United however (at least up until now) play a completely different style of football that does not emphasize Kagawa's strengths and demands skills that he's rather mediocre at, so while sticking him behind van Persie would certainly help him perform better I don't think it would turn him into the same footballer he was for Dortmund.
Our movement is fine. This is one thing that I don't like about this thread. Blame everything and everyone except Kagawa himself.
trouble is that Kouroux makes a good point
Our movement is fine. This is one thing that I don't like about this thread. Blame everything and everyone except Kagawa himself.
Where did I do such a thing
?Where did I do such a thing
You're essentially saying our lack of movement is to blame for him not replicating his Dortmund form
I didn't specially mention "up front".
Which is probably right.
You went OTT with my point, you see when you use the word "essentially" that means you're interpreting what I said. When I truly mean something I'll say it just like this previous post of mine.
I think not. Our movement is very good. Our overall play is not as direct or concentrated through the middle as Dortmund's was but the movement is not the issue. I think he's a fantastic player who needs some time to get used to the league and the style of play. If Moyes shows faith in him and I am confident he'll come good. Don't see the need to dress it up a anything else
Our movement is fine. This is one thing that I don't like about this thread. Blame everything and everyone except Kagawa himself.
Our movement isnt fine at all when you compare it with teams like Barca and Dortmund. It isnt the reason why Kagawa hasnt been as good but will definitely be a factor.
i misread "in front of him" as being upfront
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