Shinji Kagawa

[Irwinwastheking]

Who's calling who a twat? No need for that!

I don't care who is a twat or not per se. What I care about is people who play for the club and not themselves. Rooney has been sulking because there wasn't enough ambitions at the club - then buy RVP and he sulks about not being the main man. I would rather have new players get that slot as I don't think he's indispensiable. Not sure why I'm a twat for saying that.

You're a twat for calling me a 'Rooney Fan Boy' despite not knowing the first thing about my feelings for Rooney and just using the basis that I called you out for making a fecking retarded statement about Rooney needing to currently 'sort his head out' when quite clearly he's committed on the pitch. If you want to play Kagawa over Rooney and want to give reasons for it then go ahead, I wouldn't entirely disagree. It's the fact you gave a bollocks reason then got on a high horse for being told so that makes you a twat.

Is that clear enough?

 

[Rossa]

You're a twat for calling me a 'Rooney Fan Boy' despite not knowing the first thing about my feelings for Rooney and just using the basis that I called you out for making a fecking retarded statement about Rooney needing to currently 'sort his head out' when quite clearly he's committed on the pitch. If you want to play Kagawa over Rooney and want to give reasons for it then go ahead, I wouldn't entirely disagree. It's the fact you gave a bollocks reason then got on a high horse for being told so that makes you a twat.

Is that clear enough?

Wow, on a bit of a rant are we? It was you who said my arguments were more or less purely based on my dislike for Rooney, which simply isn't true. Yes, I'm not his biggest fan, but I still acknowledge that he's a great footballer. My argument is that there are plenty of players who would give their all EVERY match to play, whereas Rooney just does that when he is arsed. His reason for doing it now seems to be his ambitions for the world cup, if I'm to guess.

What's starting to bug me ever so slightly about you is that you randomly called me a twat and talk down and interpret my posts whichever way you see fit. When I then call you something, which was quite harmless, you get all sore. He needs to sort his head and make up his mind whether or not he is committed to the club or just himself. Is that so strange?

What was so retarded about the statement? That I don't think Rooney will keep committed and that there is plenty of historical evidence to back that up? That he has in fact disrespected the club. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't play him solely because of what may happen in the future, but history is there to teach us. I don't think he's better than Kagawa in that position anyways.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Wow, on a bit of a rant are we? It was you who said my arguments were more or less purely based on my dislike for Rooney, which simply isn't true. Yes, I'm not his biggest fan, but I still acknowledge that he's a great footballer. My argument is that there are plenty of players who would give their all EVERY match to play, whereas Rooney just does that when he is arsed. His reason for doing it now seems to be his ambitions for the world cup, if I'm to guess.

What's starting to bug me ever so slightly about you is that you randomly called me a twat and talk down and interpret my posts whichever way you see fit. When I then call you something, which was quite harmless, you get all sore. He needs to sort his head and make up his mind whether or not he is committed to the club or just himself. Is that so strange?

What was so retarded about the statement? That I don't think Rooney will keep committed and that there is plenty of historical evidence to back that up? That he has in fact disrespected the club. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't play him solely because of what may happen in the future, but history is there to teach us. I don't think he's better than Kagawa in that position anyways.

You really should start to read posts before replying. Start with your own.

 

[Rossa]

You really should start to read posts before replying. Start with your own.

Again with the assumptions. Are you on a different planet or something? Good night to you, sir.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Again with the assumptions. Are you on a different planet or something? Good night to you, sir.

That last post you made had precisely five inaccuracies in it as to how this brief discussion has gone. Five in three short paragraphs is quite an achievement.

 

[Rossa]

That last post you made had precisely five inaccuracies in it as to how this brief discussion has gone. Five in three short paragraphs is quite an achievement.

That must be in your opinion then.

You did say my arguments against Rooney were based on my dislike, right? - which wasn't true (although admittedly I'm not a huge fan)

You called me a twat for saying something similar to what I called you - or is that incorrect?

I still think that he isn't committed to the club, even if you are after watching him chase the ball very well against Chelsea - a committed player sometimes smiles a bit and celebrates goals.

He has disrespected the club - not sure that I can say much else about that.

Maybe you had some other controversies, but if you're not somehow all-knowing, I think it's more a matter of opinion and perception than pure knowledge.

 

[Rowem]

For feck's sake guys, thanks for having handbags and knocking my post back to the last page. Now I won't get any biters.

 

[Rossa]

For feck's sake guys, thanks for having handbags and knocking my post back to the last page. Now I won't get any biters.

I do apologize - feel free to bump it

 

[Irwinwastheking]

It was you who said my arguments were more or less purely based on my dislike for Rooney, which simply isn't true.

No I didn't, I asked if it was influenced. That's inaccuracy No1.

Right then. And you don't think there's a chance that any of this may be influenced by your dislike for Rooney?

My argument is that there are plenty of players who would give their all EVERY match to play, whereas Rooney just does that when he is arsed. His reason for doing it now seems to be his ambitions for the world cup, if I'm to guess.

You're argument that I was debating initially was that he had to get his head right, not what you subsequently said to justify this bollocks below. No2.

It is - with Rooney's antics he should be behind quality players like Kagawa in the pecking order until he sorts his head. Playing Rooney as pleading him to stay is cowardly, imo. He was quite good against Chelsea, I'll agree to that.

What's starting to bug me ever so slightly about you is that you randomly called me a twat and talk down and interpret my posts whichever way you see fit. When I then call you something, which was quite harmless, you get all sore. He needs to sort his head and make up his mind whether or not he is committed to the club or just himself. Is that so strange?

This is Innacuracy 3 & 4. 3 was that you called me a Rooney FanBoy and took offence at my so you got the order wrong, and 4 was that I misinterpreted your posts. As can be seen I'm reading them thoroughly.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't play him solely because of what may happen in the future,

And for No5 - Yes that's exactly what you are doing.

That must be in your opinion then.

You did say my arguments against Rooney were based on my dislike, right? - which wasn't true (although admittedly I'm not a huge fan)

You called me a twat for saying something similar to what I called you - or is that incorrect?

I still think that he isn't committed to the club, even if you are after watching him chase the ball very well against Chelsea - a committed player sometimes smiles a bit and celebrates goals.

He has disrespected the club - not sure that I can say much else about that.

Maybe you had some other controversies, but if you're not somehow all-knowing, I think it's more a matter of opinion and perception than pure knowledge.

 

[711]

This is the stuff skim-reading was invented for. I'll just point out that usually with these arguments whoever has posted the most laughing smilies is wrong.
I don't know why, it's some sort of law of the internet, but it's nearly always right.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

This is the stuff skim-reading was invented for. I'll just point out that usually with these arguments whoever has posted the most laughing smilies is wrong.
I don't know why, it's some sort of law of the internet, but it's nearly always right.

There's only been one and it was justified.

 

[711]

There's only been one and it was justified.

On the other hand I hate the term fanboy. When I read fanboi I actually want to kill someone. I'm a grumpy old git, sorry, carry on.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Or we could all poke fun at Cunto. He actually called Kagawa a disloyal cnut a few pages back.

 

[711]

There's no chance I'll read that far back, but your word's good enough for me.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Once said it's as good as the truth.

 

[manusteve]

It should be possible to play Rooney and Kagawa in the same team in a 4-2-3-1. Doesn't Kagawa play left side for Japan? He doesn't have to be a "winger". Then, Nani or Valencia can be the other one of the three. And yes, I am aware this omits Welbeck.

 

[do.ob]

4231 or 442 are just a bunch of numbers. What system/style teams play is a completely different thing.

 

[Andrew~]

It should be possible to play Rooney and Kagawa in the same team in a 4-2-3-1. Doesn't Kagawa play left side for Japan? He doesn't have to be a "winger". Then, Nani or Valencia can be the other one of the three. And yes, I am aware this omits Welbeck.

I see people saying this a lot, but it's not like playing for Japan 'on the left' is similar to playing for United 'on the left'. Different systems require different things from different players, even if in general they are operating in the same areas. It's not like you'd expect the same kind of play from Pedro as you as expect from Valencia because they both play 'on the right'.

 

[AttackingFlair]

We played a front four of RVP, Rooney, Kagawa (left) and Welbeck (right) vs Southampton and I remember Kagawa having a good game and Rooney scoring two goals. The players interchanged well. I'm sure Kagawa on the left could work but he needs a run of games.

 

[sammsky1]

The sad thing is you just know we'll sell him for absolute peanuts and he'll go on and become a superstar.

We'll get 8 mill for him tops now that Moyes has made it clear he's completely unwanted.

And to rub salt in the wounds Moyes will play Fellaini off the striker and have us playing hoof ball stuff.

I dont think there is any substantive evidence yet that Moyes does not rate him, nor know how to use him, though I personally would have played him vs Liverpool. Like all have said, its very early season and the injured and games will pile up soon enough.

I can understand Kagawa's antsy pants especially after Rooney staying, Fellaini's signing and Nani's new contract, its hard for him to see a way into the team. Unlike SAF who knew the worth of every squad player (because he signed all of them!), Moyes has a long way to go to understand the depth and breadth this squad offers him for the many different types of matches he will face, being expected to win almost every game. Again, I think him losing Rene and Phelen was a huge mistake in this regard. That also presents Kagawa a problem in the short term, Moyes has no idea how to rotate this inherited squad.

I sympathise with Kagawa greatly in this, and dont see a short term solution. But he also needs to remain patient and fight for his place. And when given the chance, take it! Personally, Im a huge fan, was willing to lose Rooney knowing we had him and really hope a front 4 of Nani,Rooney, Kagawa, Van Persie becomes a regular battery of attacking goal scoring players. If it doesn't work out for him, I;ll be gutted, but he should then force a move, and I would not blame him.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Or we could all poke fun at Cunto. He actually called Kagawa a disloyal cnut a few pages back.

Well that's clearly not true.

 

[Dargonk]

I hope he starts this weekend, just to put to bed the moyes doesn't rate him talk.

 

[ghaliboy]

And the normal gimps on here gobble it up hook line and sinker.

But.. the mail said it! TOYS OUT OF PRAM KAGAWA NOT STARTING.

 

[mlclauhk]

We have basically the same squad as last season which won the EPL, were the squad players good enough last season?

Other teams have strengthened significantly over the summer, compared to our purchase of Fellaini.

Which brings me back to my original point, where I pointed out that you are very mistaken if you think we have the "luxury" of squad rotation. We should be playing the strongest possible team week in week out.

 

[sullydnl]

Other teams have strengthened significantly over the summer, compared to our purchase of Fellaini.

Which brings me back to my original point, where I pointed out that you are very mistaken if you think we have the "luxury" of squad rotation. We should be playing the strongest possible team week in week out.

Disagree, our strength over recent years has been the depth of our squad and the fact that we don't need to play our 1st team every week to get results. Moving away from that would be a bad idea, SAF mastered the use of rotation and I hope Moyes keeps it up.

 

[gooDevil]

I think we could stand to have a slightly smaller squad, if that allowed us to spend a bit more on the players we do have, but I agree that quality in depth is a great asset, especially in the league.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As a league winning strategy Fergie's rotation was all but perfect, as the evidence shows: He had it down to an art. Moyes would do well to learn as much as he can from the great man when it comes to rotation.

But Moyes isn't Fergie - that's one thing. And what type of player is Kagawa capable of being for us? That's another thing. Is it possible that we need to make him just about the main man (the one who dictates play and sees a lot of the ball all the time) in order for him to perform to the best of his abilities? It's a concern, I must admit. Ideally he should be able to combine with - and interchange positions with - Rooney, but how this pans out in practice is impossible to tell before we've seen them in a run of matches. If it turns out that the two of them don't work well together, we have a bit of a problem on our hands: If, essentially, they're rivals for one spot in our best XI and do not combine well enough to justify starting them both, one of them looks more than likely to end up unhappy.

I was pleased that Rooney stayed on. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that Chelsea emerged as his only realistic destination. I think we would've been mad to ship him down there. But part of me thinks it might have made life easier for Moyes if he had buggered off - to some continental side: It would've made Kagawa the obvious choice in the No 10 role. A gamble, certainly, as we still don't know if Kagawa can become as good for us as he was for Dortmund - but perhaps a gamble worth going for. Worst case scenario: Rooney has a mediocre season, goes to Chelsea (or somewhere else, for that matter) come summer. In the meantime Kagawa still hasn't managed to establish himself, due to a shortage of minutes in his best position, and has become positively unsettled. Klopp begins tapping him up (he has said more than once that Kagawa would be very welcome should he want to return)...and there you go.

On the other hand, the best case scenario is that Kagawa and Rooney (and Nani or Welbeck) hit it off in style sooner rather than later, and become an incredible, interchanging force behind RVP...

 

[Sky1981]

Disagree, our strength over recent years has been the depth of our squad and the fact that we don't need to play our 1st team every week to get results. Moving away from that would be a bad idea, SAF mastered the use of rotation and I hope Moyes keeps it up.

Moyes is not SAF

 

[ciderman9000000]

Other teams have strengthened significantly over the summer, compared to our purchase of Fellaini.

Which brings me back to my original point, where I pointed out that you are very mistaken if you think we have the "luxury" of squad rotation. We should be playing the strongest possible team week in week out.

Which of our rivals have strengthened particularly? I see many changes, like for like and squad players, but not much outright strengthening. Ozil has strengthened Arsenal for sure, but Fellaini has strengthened United equally imo. Chelsea and City? I don't see much stronger teams therein than last season. Spurs ought to be stronger but I wouldn't say they were title rivals and so will pose just as much a threat to our actual rivals as they will to us.

 

[Rossa]

Which of our rivals have strengthened particularly? I see many changes, like for like and squad players, but not much outright strengthening. Ozil has strengthened Arsenal for sure, but Fellaini has strengthened United equally imo. Chelsea and City? I don't see much stronger teams therein than last season. Spurs ought to be stronger but I wouldn't say they were title rivals and so will pose just as much a threat to our actual rivals as they will to us.

I think the team to have strengthened the most this calendar year would be Liverpool - are they our rivals though? Otherwise I think I agree with this.

 

[Rossa]

No I didn't, I asked if it was influenced. That's inaccuracy No1.







You're argument that I was debating initially was that he had to get his head right, not what you subsequently said to justify this bollocks below. No2.











This is Innacuracy 3 & 4. 3 was that you called me a Rooney FanBoy and took offence at my so you got the order wrong, and 4 was that I misinterpreted your posts. As can be seen I'm reading them thoroughly.



And for No5 - Yes that's exactly what you are doing.

When your entire argument is based on semantics, you know your arguments are quite thin. I can read things thoroughly and still misinterpret, as I'm sure can you. I think we should just let this discussion be as we are getting nowhere.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I think the team to have strengthened the most this calendar year would be Liverpool - are they our rivals though? Otherwise I think I agree with this.

I didn't include mid-table teams as I don't think their strengthening is relevant to the title.

 

[NoLogo]

I didn't include mid-table teams as I don't think their strengthening is relevant to the title.

I know you're just having a dig at Liverpool but of course it's of importance if the smaller teams improve and we don't. We all know the title isn't won in the big games most of the time but in the games against the teams outside the top 5. The team that can beat those teams with the biggest consistency will most likely win the league.

 

[kouroux]

As a league winning strategy Fergie's rotation was all but perfect, as the evidence shows: He had it down to an art. Moyes would do well to learn as much as he can from the great man when it comes to rotation.

But Moyes isn't Fergie - that's one thing. And what type of player is Kagawa capable of being for us? That's another thing. Is it possible that we need to make him just about the main man (the one who dictates play and sees a lot of the ball all the time) in order for him to perform to the best of his abilities? It's a concern, I must admit. Ideally he should be able to combine with - and interchange positions with - Rooney, but how this pans out in practice is impossible to tell before we've seen them in a run of matches. If it turns out that the two of them don't work well together, we have a bit of a problem on our hands: If, essentially, they're rivals for one spot in our best XI and do not combine well enough to justify starting them both, one of them looks more than likely to end up unhappy.

I was pleased that Rooney stayed on. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that Chelsea emerged as his only realistic destination. I think we would've been mad to ship him down there. But part of me thinks it might have made life easier for Moyes if he had buggered off - to some continental side: It would've made Kagawa the obvious choice in the No 10 role. A gamble, certainly, as we still don't know if Kagawa can become as good for us as he was for Dortmund - but perhaps a gamble worth going for. Worst case scenario: Rooney has a mediocre season, goes to Chelsea (or somewhere else, for that matter) come summer. In the meantime Kagawa still hasn't managed to establish himself, due to a shortage of minutes in his best position, and has become positively unsettled. Klopp begins tapping him up (he has said more than once that Kagawa would be very welcome should he want to return)...and there you go.

On the other hand, the best case scenario is that Kagawa and Rooney (and Nani or Welbeck) hit it off in style sooner rather than later, and become an incredible, interchanging force behind RVP...

I think he should earn that privilege, I hope he'll try his best at least.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I know you're just having a dig at Liverpool but of course it's of importance if the smaller teams improve and we don't. We all know the title isn't won in the big games most of the time but in the games against the teams outside the top 5. The team that can beat those teams with the biggest consistency will most likely win the league.

Yes, but mid-table teams strengthening has no relevance on where the title goes since a stronger mid-table team nevertheless poses an equal threat to every title challenger.

The title is decided upon which of the title challengers is the strongest, not on the relative strength of the mid or lower-table teams. We only need to worry about the comparative strength of our direct rivals.

I call this law The Cannon-Fodder Equilibrium.

 

[Rossa]

I didn't include mid-table teams as I don't think their strengthening is relevant to the title.

Touché

 

[B20]

People are idiots.


I could name names if you like.

go on...

 

[KM]

People looking too much into this. Kagawa played in the Rio testimonial and looked really, really unfit.

Moyes is just giving him some time to build his fitness. Won't be surprised to see him starting now as he has completed both matches for Japan.

 

[adamwest]

People looking too much into this. Kagawa played in the Rio testimonial and looked really, really unfit.

Moyes is just giving him some time to build his fitness. Won't be surprised to see him starting now as he has completed both matches for Japan.

Exactly this. This nonsense about Moyes not picking him has been blown out of proportion to the point of hilarity. He'll play at the weekend.

 

[Andrew~]

Which of our rivals have strengthened particularly? I see many changes, like for like and squad players, but not much outright strengthening. Ozil has strengthened Arsenal for sure, but Fellaini has strengthened United equally imo. Chelsea and City? I don't see much stronger teams therein than last season. Spurs ought to be stronger but I wouldn't say they were title rivals and so will pose just as much a threat to our actual rivals as they will to us.

They've upgraded their managers, which were the main reasons why both those teams were so far off from even mounting a challenge last season. City won the league on goal difference in 2011/12 with 89 points, the same team failed to even break 81 points last season while being 10 points behind United. Now we all like to talk about how Van Persie own us the league, but City didn't even compete last season. Chelsea haven't finished above 80 points since 2010/11, and that period directly coincides with the last time they had a top class manager (Carlo Ancelotti).

The most significant signings this year are the managers.