Shinji Kagawa

Status
Not open for further replies.
Explain the horrible tactical approach and how it varied so differently to what we've seen over the last couple of years.

In the last couple of years, we have decent wingers. Rooney can spread those passes diagonally and you can bet on your life one of our wingers would deliver a good cross for the strikers to connect with. These days, the wingers are so poor at playing wide and when they actually manage to put in a cross, the strikers fail to connect with it.

Rooney is a poisoned chalice - granted, he's scoring goals but those goals are via setpieces. Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him. In Rooney's last 5 league games, he's clocked 34 long passes and a miserable 4 through passes. Mesut Ozil had as many as that number of through passes in his first league game alone.

Kagawa should be given a run of games in that position to see what he can do. Yes, he's a bit small to be physically imposing or track back to win tackles. However, Rooney hasn't been doing any of that either. So we are losing a chunk of creativity going forward & Rooney isn't doing much defensively. Pathetic display is inevitable. Until our wingers start to find a bit of form, Rooney should play elsewhere or sit on the bench.
 
In the last couple of years, we have decent wingers. Rooney can spread those passes diagonally and you can bet on your life one of our wingers would deliver a good cross for the strikers to connect with. These days, the wingers are so poor at playing wide and when they actually manage to put in a cross, the strikers fail to connect with it.

Rooney is a poisoned chalice - granted, he's scoring goals but those goals are via setpieces. Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him. In Rooney's last 5 league games, he's clocked 34 long passes and a miserable 4 through passes. Mesut Ozil had as many as that number of through passes in his first league game alone.

Kagawa should be given a run of games in that position to see what he can do. Yes, he's a bit small to be physically imposing or track back to win tackles. However, Rooney hasn't been doing any of that either. So we are losing a chunk of creativity going forward & Rooney isn't doing much defensively. Pathetic display is inevitable. Until our wingers start to find a bit of form, Rooney should play elsewhere or sit on the bench.

That's all well and good, but when do we have runners from deep going in behind defences to slide in those players?.

RVP/Hernandez is usually the only target, but when he is being marked by 2 players its pretty much impossible.
 
He's looking more and more like a square peg in a round hole. Much like Berbatov was. It's disappointing. I wanted Kagawa on United for a couple of years before he got here and now it seems he's being wasted. Once we signed RVP he because superfluous. Now he's just waiting to see if Rooney leaves, which is unfair on such a talented player.

He should step up and adapt. We all criticised Rooney for not stepping up last season and fighting for his position. Kagawa gets defended far too much. He has played numerous times on the left and should be able to adapt. Good players can play in a number of positions.
 
I definitely agree with these two observations.


I've always thought a fit and firing Rooney in a possession-orientated side would be even better and renowned than he has for United. He'd have developed differently and honed his first touch/creative passing a tad better.
 
In the last couple of years, we have decent wingers. Rooney can spread those passes diagonally and you can bet on your life one of our wingers would deliver a good cross for the strikers to connect with. These days, the wingers are so poor at playing wide and when they actually manage to put in a cross, the strikers fail to connect with it.

Rooney is a poisoned chalice - granted, he's scoring goals but those goals are via setpieces. Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him. In Rooney's last 5 league games, he's clocked 34 long passes and a miserable 4 through passes. Mesut Ozil had as many as that number of through passes in his first league game alone.

Kagawa should be given a run of games in that position to see what he can do. Yes, he's a bit small to be physically imposing or track back to win tackles. However, Rooney hasn't been doing any of that either. So we are losing a chunk of creativity going forward & Rooney isn't doing much defensively. Pathetic display is inevitable. Until our wingers start to find a bit of form, Rooney should play elsewhere or sit on the bench.

Gotcha. So the movement of our front players is actually good enough, it's just Rooney who's incapable of taking advantage?

The goalposts have moved again. That's one of the many excuses for Kagawa's underwhelming performances blown away...
 
In the last couple of years, we have decent wingers. Rooney can spread those passes diagonally and you can bet on your life one of our wingers would deliver a good cross for the strikers to connect with. These days, the wingers are so poor at playing wide and when they actually manage to put in a cross, the strikers fail to connect with it.

Rooney is a poisoned chalice - granted, he's scoring goals but those goals are via setpieces. Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him. In Rooney's last 5 league games, he's clocked 34 long passes and a miserable 4 through passes. Mesut Ozil had as many as that number of through passes in his first league game alone.

Kagawa should be given a run of games in that position to see what he can do. Yes, he's a bit small to be physically imposing or track back to win tackles. However, Rooney hasn't been doing any of that either. So we are losing a chunk of creativity going forward & Rooney isn't doing much defensively. Pathetic display is inevitable. Until our wingers start to find a bit of form, Rooney should play elsewhere or sit on the bench.

Wow.
 
I've always thought a fit and firing Rooney in a possession-orientated side would be even better and renowned than he has for United. He'd have developed differently and honed his first touch/creative passing a tad better.

Indeed, there is a reason why Rooney always tries these long passes to the right winger (often Valencia), it's not that he hates playing it short. He's well capable of that but the team isn't oriented to play like that, him and Kagawa would face the same issues. In order for Rooney or Kagawa to truly shine, we have to improve the general movement of the team.
 
That's all well and good, but when do we have runners from deep going in behind defences to slide in those players?.

RVP/Hernandez is usually the only target, but when he is being marked by 2 players its pretty much impossible.

Let's be honest with ourselves - Rooney isn't just good enough to be our trequartista. His 1-2 ball movement is the worst in Europe. Look at Mata, Ozil, Silva, Nasri, Eriksen, Coutinho, etc and see how they manage to tread that killer pass from the middle. Rooney's first instinct is to spread the ball wide to Young or Valencia. That is Rooney's default 99% of the time. For how long do we continue like this?

Hernandez & Van Persie are always moving. The passes aren't just getting to them enough and when they do, it's often underhit or overhit.
 
I think your over-exaggerating a bit here Hannbial. Do I think Rooney is as good creatively as some members of the caf would have you believe? No... Whilst I'd count on him all day to knock one over the top to land on RVP's left boot, in small tight spaces in the opposition box that require intricate/quick passing, i don't think he's quite up there... but he's not dire at it or anything, and besides that, I don't think our overall movement is good enough at the moment anyway. Far too many times this season I've seen Carrick or Rooney have the ball at their feet and there is feck all going on around them.

Also, Rooney is much better at creating and scoring chances for himself then a lot of those players you just mentioned... so it really depends what type of number 10 you want in your side.
 
I think your over-exaggerating a bit here Hannbial. Do I think Rooney is as good creatively as some members of the caf would have you believe? No... Whilst I'd count on him all day to knock one over the top to land on RVP's left boot, in small tight spaces in the opposition box that require intricate/quick passing, i don't think he's quite up there... but he's not dire at it or anything, and besides that, I don't think our overall movement is good enough at the moment anyway. Far too many times this season I've seen Carrick or Rooney have the ball at their feet and there is feck all going on around them.

Also, Rooney is much better at creating and scoring chances for himself then a lot of those players you just mentioned... so it really depends what type of number 10 you want in your side.

This is the biggest pb the team has when it comes to the attacking. The best creative passers in the world would find it tough to "create" anything without much movement.
 

Has a point IMO, even though his wording is over the top.

For a long time now it's been evident that Rooney isn't good enough in the #10 in the big games. He should either be leading the line or coming in from the left. He doesn't have that cuteness to his play that all the top #10's have and, for me, is one of the contributing factors to us not performing particularly well in big games over the last few years.
 
There's this weird, self-hating thing going on with Kagawa that I just don't get. A lot of our fans seem to think we're beneath him, that somehow we need to change entirely to accommodate him. It's really odd.

Its not that hard to understand really. In a nutshell: our football has been a bit dull in recent seasons; Dortmund play really exciting football that many would like to see here; Kagawa was one of the creative forces behind a very exciting Dortmund team. Ergo, we would like to see Kagawa help us metamorphose into a really exciting, incisive, creative, potent attacking force.

I dont buy into all this business about our players being too static or whatever else. I dont know if Kagawa can or ever will recreate his form at Dortmund for us. I dont know if his "top level" is higher than Rooney's or not, and I dont advocate breaking the team up and recreating it in his image. But I think there is a case to be made for returning to the drawing board to think about how we are going to play, not to fit Kagawa in but to get the most out of everybody. And as for Kagawa specifically, I find it frustrating when we buy someone with a load of potential and then dont use him properly or give him a real chance to show what he can do. In this instance it is clear enough what happened and there is nobody to blame particularly, it is just a tough set of circumstances - for Kagawa at least. (The working theory, that RVP arrived and scuppered the intended plan, to play him at 10 and Rooney at 9.) But that doesnt make it any less frustrating.

This self flagellation thing - the "self-hating" thing - it is just people look at our football and they feel faintly dissatisfied with it. Even when we are winning things. There is a whole different philosophical debate about this, in the sense that I cant really remember a time since i joined this place when there hasnt been a vocal section of fans, even if a minority, criticising our football - even at times that are later viewed as glory days. People look back now to when Ronaldo was here and we won the CL as an era of amazing football but at the time it wasnt so unequivocal, from what I remember anyway. There is always a rose tint on hindsight. Having said that, rightly or wrongly in the here and now many people feel our football should be more attractive, and some of those people feel that Kagawa is the kind of player who can deliver that. I have no idea if this is right, but I would like to give it a go. Having said that I am well aware of the dilemma of how to fit in all our best players without compromising somewhere with people's preferred positions.

"A lot of our fans seem to think we're beneath him." I can only speak for myself, and I dont think this really applies to me, but to go back to my first para, I dont think we are beneath him, I think we are beneath ourselves, beneath our own expectations of where we should be and what we are capable of. This isnt about results, it is about styles of football. And I would like to see whether Kagawa is capable of lifting us.

Anyway, all this is rather missing the point in our current situation, arguing about sexy football is what you do when you are winning boring, at the moment we have much bigger problems than worrying about how to accommodate Kagawa or play more attractive football.
 
Gotcha. So the movement of our front players is actually good enough, it's just Rooney who's incapable of taking advantage?

The goalposts have moved again. That's one of the many excuses for Kagawa's underwhelming performances blown away...

Rooney's first touch is no where near world class. Quick & short intricate passing isn't one of his strengths. Cleverley is even better than him in this department. Majority of the time, Rooney receives the ball with his back facing the opponent's goal and when he eventually turns, the ball goes wide. What Rooney does in the final third is what Carrick & Fellaini should be doing from deep positions. An interiore should be taking on his markers, he should have the required weight of pass with an eye for the killer ball at the edge of the box. If Kagawa gets a run of games in that position, he would do better than Rooney is offering.
 
Let's be honest with ourselves - Rooney isn't just good enough to be our trequartista. His 1-2 ball movement is the worst in Europe. Look at Mata, Ozil, Silva, Nasri, Eriksen, Coutinho, etc and see how they manage to tread that killer pass from the middle. Rooney's first instinct is to spread the ball wide to Young or Valencia. That is Rooney's default 99% of the time. For how long do we continue like this?

Hernandez & Van Persie are always moving. The passes aren't just getting to them enough and when they do, it's often underhit or overhit.

Bullshit.

Lots of technicalities, but the end fact is that as of mid September Opta reports that Rooney has either scored or assisted in 40 goals in his 44 games. I cannot get to the link from office, but you can check it out yourself. Can you pull out any comparable stats for the players you list above?

Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him.

Ever heard of midfield creativity? Blame the No.10 when the players behind and around him are shit!
 
Its not that hard to understand really. In a nutshell: our football has been a bit dull in recent seasons; Dortmund play really exciting football that many would like to see here; Kagawa was one of the creative forces behind a very exciting Dortmund team. Ergo, we would like to see Kagawa help us metamorphose into a really exciting, incisive, creative, potent attacking force.

I dont buy into all this business about our players being too static or whatever else. I dont know if Kagawa can or ever will recreate his form at Dortmund for us. I dont know if his "top level" is higher than Rooney's or not, and I dont advocate breaking the team up and recreating it in his image. But I think there is a case to be made for returning to the drawing board to think about how we are going to play.

I agree with the part in bold but I still think you underrate how much a team's movement can make the better passers of it shine. Kagawa left Dortmund but they still play the same quick "one touch" football because Klopp is a coach with clear ideas. Kagawa was an element of what made Dortmund great. If Utd wants to see the best of him (his Dortmund form let's say) then a lot of things have to change with the way we're playing. Rooney could be put on the bench and Kagawa start every game behind RVP that there wouldn't be a fundamental increase of his performances when the team's general tactic is slow and static football.
SAF left a winning side to Moyes indeed but he also left him many problems in terms of play, movement, pressure off the ball. Man Utd has to reinvent its football.
 
Has a point IMO, even though his wording is over the top.

For a long time now it's been evident that Rooney isn't good enough in the #10 in the big games. He should either be leading the line or coming in from the left. He doesn't have that cuteness to his play that all the top #10's have and, for me, is one of the contributing factors to us not performing particularly well in big games over the last few years.


I agree, though don't think he's particularly great from the left. It becomes even more highlighted when he's in poor form, and literally half our attacks break down because of his dodgy ball control and short passing.
 
I think Kagawa has to improve. Said it before but if he doesn't improve I wouldn't be surprised if we sell him back to Borussia Dortmund in the summer window. If we were to do that I would like us to offer him + cash for Gundogan or Reus as unlikely as it may seem. Kagawa's faults in his play for me hasn't got to do with the position he plays. It's just general things that he's messing up. I mean some sloppy passes to lose possession or a poor control of the ball. I was delighted when we signed Kagawa and I hope he can improve.

He can play from the left as he does for Japan. I think his confidence is very low at the moment and that's really effecting him. Needs to impose himself more in games and not let them pass him by. I made countless excuses for him last season but he just needs to improve. I mean he's shown good touches and moments of brilliance at certain times but not enough and with the way Rooney is playing he won't be displacing him any time soon. I hope he improves for us because he's a great player and a brilliant footballer.
 
Good to see people finally realising Rooneys limits as a player. As good as he is, you CANNOT build a team around him. Something Ferguson finally realised last summer ...



It's a travesty we haven't built the team round Kagawa yet. He's one of the most gifted players in Europe. I am even convinced Kagawa did a better job for Dortmund than Özil. His movement, vision, technical ability, passes in the final third are world class. Rooney doesn't even come close.
 
I agree with the part in bold but I still think you underrate how much a team's movement can make the better passers of it shine. Kagawa left Dortmund but they still play the same quick "one touch" football because Klopp is a coach with clear ideas. Kagawa was an element of what made Dortmund great. If Utd wants to see the best of him (his Dortmund form let's say) then a lot of things have to change with the way we're playing. Rooney could be put on the bench and Kagawa start every game behind RVP that there wouldn't be a fundamental increase of his performances when the team's general tactic is slow and static football.
SAF left a winning side to Moyes indeed but he also left him many problems in terms of play, movement, pressure off the ball. Man Utd has to reinvent its football.

You think there is a case for returning to the drawing board to think about how we pla? Why dont you agree with the "y"?
 
Bullshit.
Lots of technicalities, but the end fact is that as of mid September Opta reports that Rooney has either scored or assisted in 40 goals in his 44 games. I cannot get to the link from office, but you can check it out yourself. Can you pull out any comparable stats for the players you list above?

That statistic is fraudulent when half of those are from set-plays. Kagawa would cop as many assists if he takes corner-kicks and whips in indirect freekicks. Learn to separate open play assists from set play assists. There's a reason Lampard pad up statistics and looks better on paper than Xavi or Iniesta. If Rooney's statistics is not helping the team stay on top of the table then it's meaningless. Of what use is my double hatrick in a match if my team conceded 15 goals in the same game?

Ever heard of midfield creativity? Blame the No.10 when the players behind and around him are shit!

34 long balls & 4 through-passes and the players around Rooney suddenly became shit? If Rooney isn't English, he won't be anywhere near our first team. As a number 10, Kagawa is astronomically better than Rooney. Arguing against that fact is arguing against logic.
 
That statistic is fraudulent when half of those are from set-plays. Kagawa would cop as many assists if he takes corner-kicks and whips in indirect freekicks. Learn to separate open play assists from set play assists. There's a reason Lampard pad up statistics and looks better on paper than Xavi or Iniesta. If Rooney's statistics is not helping the team stay on top of the table then it's meaningless. Of what use is my double hatrick in a match if my team conceded 15 goals in the same game?



34 long balls & 4 through-passes and the players around Rooney suddenly became shit? If Rooney isn't English, he won't be anywhere near our first team. As a number 10, Kagawa is astronomically better than Rooney. Arguing against that fact is arguing against logic.

Wow that's utter tripe. He's been comfortably,COMFORTABLY our best player this season.
 
Wow that's utter tripe. He's been comfortably,COMFORTABLY our best player this season.


Even you could be comfortably our best player this season. That's how bad we are currently playing as a team tbh.
 
That statistic is fraudulent when half of those are from set-plays. Kagawa would cop as many assists if he takes corner-kicks and whips in indirect freekicks. Learn to separate open play assists from set play assists. There's a reason Lampard pad up statistics and looks better on paper than Xavi or Iniesta. If Rooney's statistics is not helping the team stay on top of the table then it's meaningless. Of what use is my double hatrick in a match if my team conceded 15 goals in the same game?



34 long balls & 4 through-passes and the players around Rooney suddenly became shit? If Rooney isn't English, he won't be anywhere near our first team. As a number 10, Kagawa is astronomically better than Rooney. Arguing against that fact is arguing against logic.

The point is they have helped the team stay on top and win trophies and that was for last season. This season imagine this souless Utd team without Rooney ..
 
Rooney and Kagawa are both clever footballers and there is no reason what so ever that the two of them couldn't work in the same team. Kagawa needs to start rediscovering the form shown at Dortmand. He himself knows this and I'm sure we'll see the best of him yet.
 


It's a travesty we haven't built the team round Kagawa yet. He's one of the most gifted players in Europe. I am even convinced Kagawa did a better job for Dortmund than Özil. His movement, vision, technical ability, passes in the final third are world class. Rooney doesn't even come close.



The only travesty from watching that compilation is how reluctant we have been to commit players in the opposition box. In all the clips Dortmund seem to have at least 3 or 4 players in and around the opposition penalty area. This is what gives a team the ability to utilise the good work in the attacking third and goals. We need to rediscover how to flood the opposition penalty area with a purpose rather than just standing around and allowing space to be marked out. Shinji is a cracking player and I hope we get see him when we play with a midfield three in a manner that allows him and the other forwards the freedom to attack without the fear of losing the ball.
 
Evra says hi.

This article echoes my thoughts on this matter....

http://www.prideofalleurope.com/2013/10/is-wayne-rooney-central-to-uniteds-woes/

Evra has been no where near our best player.

You're going into hyperbole in your praise for Kagawa and your dislike towards Rooney.

Rooney has easily been our best player this season. Kagawa, a few games at the end of last season aside, has flattered to deceive. The amount of excuses made for him is cringeworthy. He has the potential to be very good, but does not deserve to upsurp a player who is performing better than he has in 3/4 years.

Lay all the excuses you want at other players feet, Kagawa has been poor this season. A few nice turns and fancy flicks do not make a great player. He has done nothing to warrant his inclusion, and seems he is unable to adapt to a new role, which borders on his natural position in an interchanging front line. A real top player would adapt.
 
In the last couple of years, we have decent wingers. Rooney can spread those passes diagonally and you can bet on your life one of our wingers would deliver a good cross for the strikers to connect with. These days, the wingers are so poor at playing wide and when they actually manage to put in a cross, the strikers fail to connect with it.

Rooney is a poisoned chalice - granted, he's scoring goals but those goals are via setpieces. Why are we finding it hard to score from open play? The answer is - Rooney is technically inept to link up play and put in a through pass for the striker ahead of him. In Rooney's last 5 league games, he's clocked 34 long passes and a miserable 4 through passes. Mesut Ozil had as many as that number of through passes in his first league game alone.

Kagawa should be given a run of games in that position to see what he can do. Yes, he's a bit small to be physically imposing or track back to win tackles. However, Rooney hasn't been doing any of that either. So we are losing a chunk of creativity going forward & Rooney isn't doing much defensively. Pathetic display is inevitable. Until our wingers start to find a bit of form, Rooney should play elsewhere or sit on the bench.

Well I do share your opinion on Rooneys limitations in general, but he has been our best player so far this season and Shinji hasn't given us a reason to play him ahead of Rooney.

That being said, I still fail to see why that has prevented us from beating West Brom.
 
Evra has been no where near our best player.

You're going into hyperbole in your praise for Kagawa and your dislike towards Rooney.

Rooney has easily been our best player this season. Kagawa, a few games at the end of last season aside, has flattered to deceive. The amount of excuses made for him is cringeworthy. He has the potential to be very good, but does not deserve to upsurp a player who is performing better than he has in 3/4 years.

Lay all the excuses you want at other players feet, Kagawa has been poor this season. A few nice turns and fancy flicks do not make a great player. He has done nothing to warrant his inclusion, and seems he is unable to adapt to a new role, which borders on his natural position in an interchanging front line. A real top player would adapt.

He has only played 45 mins in the league this season & yet he's been poor?
 
He has only played 45 mins in the league this season & yet he's been poor?

Yes. Didn't realise time on the pitch, or in this case lack of, correlated to perfomance of said player. There was a reason he was hauled off after 45 minutes for an untested 18 yo. Because he was poor. In his other appearances he's been below par, albeit showing slight glimpses of what he can do.

We all hope he finds his Dortmund form, but reality is, he's not lit the world alight in his time at United, he needs to learn to adapt in terms of position and working with his team mates and he needs to gain some form. Even Kagawa has stated he's not pleased with how he's playing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24344683

People need to stop defending him and accept, so far he hasn't been the player we hoped. I do believe he can still become that player but he is no where near yet.
 
Has Rooney been a well functioning creative No 10 fit for the elite of the game or rather a needed goalscorer predominantly from set pieces during a desperate start to the season?

Would a large degree of this contribution be lost were we to put him on the left and Kagawa centrally? If not then we really ought to see what might be gained from doing so. Others have mentioned a change in formation and i think this would be better for either Wayne or Shinji when nominally starting on the wing.
 
I'm still amazed how a player who simple hasn't shown up when played isn't blamed for his own performances instead we as a club are in the wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.