He's not the best squad player at our club, much less the league, good player though he is.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
I'm guessing the principle is it's better to have Kagawa at 100% and Rooney at 80%, than Rooney at 100% and Kagawa at 20%.
Personally I don't buy it; Kagawa needs to earn his spot. Particularly as he isn't even getting the basics right from the left.
I find it funny people seem to think if we played Kagawa behind the striker it would solve every problem..
Is that not better for us, Manchester United?
Not if Kagawa isn't playing at all and the one who's playing instead of him adds more to Rooney's 100% than Kagawa's 100% and Rooney's 80% together would bring to the team.
I agree, he needs to play better in the opportunities given to him. And I think he can if Moyes gives him a run on the left.
But no way should we stick Rooney out there for the sake of Kagawa at this stage.
He is turning into Berbatov part 2 as far as some opinions are concerned on here.
The difference is he looks likes he gives a shit and is willing to do better.
The difference is he looks likes he gives a shit and is willing to do better.
Give him a run of games on the left. And hopefully he plays like he can in tim.e
Not based on anything he's done for us. I was thrilled when we signed him and am a bit pissed off he hasn't cut it yet, but that's the truth, he hasn't cut it. Are you saying SAF and Moyes should ignore what they see in training and what we all see in games and instead watch youtube clips of him at Dortmud? I presume they saw how good he was when they signed him?
That's what I said a while back. The fanboyism is taking over.
It's more understandable to a degree though. Our wingers have been dogshit and Kagawa is a player that we'd all agree if he was still at Dortmund, we'd all be over the moon if the club made an attempt to sign him in January. It's irrelevant, because he isn't, but he looked like a player bordering on world class at one point.
It would solve nothing as the basics of Utd's general football could do with a lot of change.
B20 no annoying animated gifs in the football forums.
Nice analogy, a weird one because we are talking about an exchange between a CB and a CAM, but still...
Unless you mean the difference in quality between Hummels and Subotic, which is not that large as some may think. Hummels is the undoubtly the superior defender, but Subotic would still be strengthen United. Given Ferdinand´s decline in ability and the fact that the Serbian is way more experienced and proven as all other CB options (while only being 24 and with that in the same age bracket with the exception of the 3 years younger Jones) he would probably walk right into your starting XI.
If you want Hummels, then good luck with that. He is our future captain and the star player, which is probably the hardest to get because of his contract situation (until 2017 without clause).
I'm not sure that it is at all fair to group Fergie and Moyes together in terms of their views of Kagawa, as even with league acclimatisation and injury disruptions the former played him nearly two dozen times and centrally too.
Agreed.
We know that Rooney can be perfectly adequate in a wider attacking role and also be a great help to the full back on that side.The team would be losing the impact of his work rate or his effectiveness from set pieces either.
Equally we know that is reasonable to assume that Kagawa's performances will see noticeable improvement if started centrally. Rooney isn't offering the same sort or frequency of assists that Shinji might at present, the reluctance from the manager and some on here is puzzling i find.
As Balu says.
Also, how can a manager trust that Kagawa will bring 100% when playing in a number 10 role, given that he can't even do the basics correctly at the moment?
I was the first person last season to say drop Rooney for Kagawa in that role, as Rooney was playing so poorly. However It'd be hypocrisy now to say Kagawa should get the nod on reputation alone, after lambasting Rooney's selection on the very same basis.
Nani. Further afield, Mata, for example.
Kagawa hasn't been a wold beater on the left this season, but to say he's been shit, or not even doings the basics is just not true.
He has been mediocre at best and the only reason he has even looked mediocre is because we had to deal with Young in that position before him, who has been intolerably shit.
Against both West Brom and Liverpool Januzaj came on in his place and performed just as competently (arguably better); being an undoubtedly nervous 18 year old youngster.
And Rooney has been playing more like a No 9 or 9.5 anyway, it's not a like-for-like swap in that sense.
The Chelsea match was a good example of this, one where Rooney was commended for his performance yet we and Moyes were left bemoaning the lack of a killer pass after the match.
If following that match the team remains in a state where it is lacking those very qualities [for all of Rooney's endeavour and goals] then the status quo is not sufficient.
Do people believe that Rooney won't put in decent performances from wide, or cant?
The Chelsea match was a good example of this, one where Rooney was commended for his performance yet we and Moyes were left bemoaning the lack of a killer pass after the match.
If following that match the team remains in a state where it is lacking those very qualities [for all of Rooney's endeavour and goals] then the status quo is not sufficient.
Do people believe that Rooney won't put in decent performances from wide, or cant?
Loan him out to a Premiership side, staying on the bench is just a waste .. like a dead man walking at the moment.
Did you see the pass at 2.30 to Lewandowski? My knees buckled!!!!
He's really underwhelmed since he arrived. Obviously he should be given the rest of the season, but if he still hasn't settled then I hope we sell him back to Dortmund. Everybody wins then.
No point loaning him out, I'm not sure he'd like to ply his trade at Fulham or Newcastle even for a while when he could easily move to a top club like Atletico or Dortmund who have both expressed their interest over the Summer.
I think he'll be gone next Summer at latest and will prove very successful for his new club, he definitely has all the tools to make it big and if he can go back to Dortmund he'll make the best of it. He's still very young so 2 or 3 years down the line he could have another shot at a bigger club like Madrid, if he doesn't it cannot hurt being main man at a great Dortmund side playing for a manager who genuinely rates you.
I think he is incredibly overrated by your lot. Obviously not a good fit for you.
funnily enough, I think he'd be acing it in the current Liverpool side...
funnily enough, I think he'd be acing it in the current Liverpool side...
What would be the point, for either him or the club? The calibre of club for which he should be playing for would be a domestic rival.
For his part a permanent deal would be best IMO. I mean if Moyes is going to insist
that the left flank is the only place for him and with our current style of play to boot, why prolong matters?
Jesus Christ with this lets play Rooney on the left for the sake of Kagawa bollocks. Based on what? Rooney is our best player right now by far, on his best form for ages and probably the only player that looks dangerous on the pitch but no lets move him to left for the sakes of Kagawa who has shown nothing so far, if he is that good he should be able to produce even the basics playing out of position.
I think the only reason he got the games he did last season, and more centrally was because Rooney was either injured or coming back from injury. I think at the Bernabeu, is the only match that Fergie decided to start Kagawa centrally with Rooney in a wider role. The return leg, despite dropping Rooney, Fergie preferred Nani and Welbeck then Kagawa.
It's not unreasonable to suggest that Moyes may have the same concerns regarding Kagawa as Fergie.
Only at Manchester United is a attacking midfielder brought in, and expected to perform well on the wing.
The mind boggles.
The mind boggles.
Because attacking midfielders elsewhere never play wide at all at any other club in the world.
Aye. David Silva never played wide at all. Juan Mata definitely did not spend his time in Spain playing wide. I could almost swear Iniesta has played each and every game for Barcelona through the middle. Isco most definitely did not earn a move to Real Madrid playing from the wing. Oh and Mikel Arteta never played wide for Everton either.
Silva, Mata, Coutinho, Nasri, Ozil and even Cazorla in the Premier League for a start have and do play games on the wing.
Saying that, United put far more enthesis on wing play so it's not quite the same. Other clubs are far more willing to let players come inside and roam from the wing.
Saying that, United put far more enthesis on wing play so it's not quite the same. Other clubs are far more willing to let players come inside and roam from the wing.
In a 4-4-2? Expected to stay wide and provide width? Did they feck. Those players had the freedom to cut inside and make plays through the middle, something we've proven incapable of doing.
And Kagawa has been instructed to play like Antonio Valencia? He's had the freedom and the license to cut inside as we've seen in the games he has played, Truth is he hasn't done much and the only reason I still want him to start is because his competition is Ashley fecking young
Kagawa when put on the wing is never expected to perform like a traditional winger (I'd argue Nani, when playing out wide, is given a lot of freedom as well, maybe not as much), it's very obvious from his movement during the match that he's acting as a wide playmaker rather than a traditional winger. Using this 'he's out wide we're ruining him' nonsense is silly, he's just not done that well so far.
On a side note, he plays 'out wide' with his national outfit and does very well in the position. He's just struggling with us. Whether it's because of the players around him, the physicality of the league, a psychological aspect on his part, I don't know, but we shouldn't pretend that we're trying to turn him into an out and out winger and that's why he's not doing well, cos it's absolutely not the case.
On a side note, he plays 'out wide' with his national outfit and does very well in the position. He's just struggling with us. Whether it's because of the players around him, the physicality of the league, a psychological aspect on his part, I don't know, but we shouldn't pretend that we're trying to turn him into an out and out winger and that's why he's not doing well, cos it's absolutely not the case.
He actually looked fine in his first game for us, against Everton, even though we went on to lose it. I thought he was actually our most threatening player on that particular day, looked very smooth with the ball and found spaces well.
I still maintain that he needs to be trusted with a proper run of games, it's the only way he'll ever come good. He still hasn't adapted to the team much like the team hasn't adapted to his style, I think there needs to be a middle ground found between him playing more like United do and the whole team going into the direction he's headed in i.e. faster football.
I still maintain that he needs to be trusted with a proper run of games, it's the only way he'll ever come good. He still hasn't adapted to the team much like the team hasn't adapted to his style, I think there needs to be a middle ground found between him playing more like United do and the whole team going into the direction he's headed in i.e. faster football.
I think ultimately the core reason is this:
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United -- on the left wing," said Klopp. "My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes."
There's a couple of other factors too, of course. I think it's upset some of the resident transfer muppets that the idea that signing a top player isn't really the simple answer to all our problems. Along with that he seems to have attracted some fanboys that take pride in relentlessly championing his cause. Then you've got the fact the main reason he's not playing in his favoured role is because of a player that most people wanted rid of in the summer. Of course there's also the issue of him being associated with many of the qualities we're lacking most at the moment (awareness of space/intelligent movement, intricate passing, creativity, pressing).
Ultimately though I think it's just the fact that we have a player in our team that is regarded by the manager, players and fans of arguably the most vibrant, exciting team in Europe as being a "world class" player and, for whatever reason, he's performing well below that level. People would just like to see him given more slack than others because he's shown he's the kind of player that can be at the heart of beautiful, exciting, title-winning football, yet at the moment it seems he's being given less slack than almost anyone in the squad.
We have a player here who the resident Dortmund (and Germany) fan believes is at a similar level to Özil and yet we're finding it hard to fit him into the team at a time when just one of our starting attackers is in good form. No-one denies that he's miles away from being in his best form but it's clear the biggest reason for that is his lack of confidence and the way we're handling him isn't likely to help that. Most players need the confidence and support of their manager to play at their best and it seems Kagawa is particularly fragile in that sense, so as much as that counts against him in terms of being "world class", it's not particularly unusual for people to think it's worth giving him that extra support.
There's a couple of myths surrounding Kagawa at the moment. As Sphaero has pointed out multiple times, Kagawa had a a reasonably long period of poor form even in his relatively short spell at Dortmund. In 10/11 by the time November came around he had just 2 goals and 2 assists in 10 league and CL starts, yet in the same period he had scored 4 goals in 5 games for Japan. So this idea that the only reason for Kagawa not being at his best at club level despite showing his quality for Japan is evidence of our blatant misuse of him is silly. The difference here is the manager stuck with him. Of course it's much easier to stick with an underperforming player when you have a small squad and the backup is Ivan Persic (now a squad player for mid-table Wolfsburg), but that show of faith led to him scoring 15 goals and getting 5 assists from then onwards as he led the march towards the league and cup double beating CL finalists Bayern in both competitions. That sort of level of performance is why people are obsessed about Kagawa. It's the kind of thing only a handful of our players have done.
The other myth is this idea that Sir Alex was giving him more and more chances as a #10 at the end of the season. It's just not true.
I suppose something that ties into that myth is this idea that even when he's played out wide he's not allowed to come centrally and influence the game in the hole. The easiest way to put that particular myth to bed is simply by watching him in practically any game he plays for us there, but if that doesn't work then you can just look at his average position map v Leverkusen and West Brom. He's closer to the centre spot than he is to the touchline as he always is. He's playing as an inside forward as the oldies would say. In fact his proximity to the centre spot is one of the problems so far, he's dropping deep and playing nothing balls, slowing the play down and playing safe football - that's one of the issues Moyes alluded to after the match v West Brom and that kind of passive football has been a recurring theme. Regardless of that the fact is he's clearly being allowed to come centrally, if Moyes was such a stickler for rigid positions then Januzaj's movement all over the pitch would drive him mental and he'd get nowhere near the team.
Bit of a meandering post but all I'm saying is yes, Kagawa hasn't performed particularly well so far but it's not that surprising that he receives more support than our other underperforming players because a) he has qualities we're lacking at the moment that aid fluid, attacking football, b) he's proven he's capable of being a key player for a title-winning side and c) he seems to be being cut less slack than other performing players despite seemingly having a good attitude.
- Status