Given the system Arsenal plays, Ozil is only going to get better and having a manager like Wenger who has a track record of getting the best out of players, I think we're going to see a much better Ozil in a couple seasons. And regards to Kagawa, the longer he's a bench and sub player, the longer he'll take to "take the league by storm". He obviously can't do that with two managers who hasn't shown a lot of faith in him.
Shinji Kagawa
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Given the system Arsenal plays, Ozil is only going to get better and having a manager like Wenger who has a track record of getting the best out of players, I think we're going to see a much better Ozil in a couple seasons. And regards to Kagawa, the longer he's a bench and sub player, the longer he'll take to "take the league by storm". He obviously can't do that with two managers who hasn't shown a lot of faith in him.
This was one game, in which he did admittedly play well.
You can't really extrapolate that into an argument that he is adaptable. His career at United shows anything but. Comparisons with Ozil are way wide of the mark.
The comparisons are stupid, Ozil went to Madrid and became one of their best players. Nuff said really
You might want to get a clue yourself. Goals two and three came from Fellaini letting the goal scorer run away from him and the fourth came from a cross from the right.Ok, so it wasnt Valencia's fault that he let Kolarov stroll into an overlapping position on the left side repeatedly, directly leading to two goals and several additional goal scoring chances for city, and Nasri had "feck all" to do with City winning the midfield battle.We basically had a 2 man midfield while City had 3 because of Nasri. No one wins 2man midfields against 3man.
Get a fecking clue.
Fair enough. You're right - he could go on and become a top player elsewhere. What has always stopped me from thinking he can be world class is his personality, in a way. He's very shy and retiring on the pitch, and rarely makes it very clear he's there. He's not very imposing. Admittedly, it's hardly a bad thing to be subtle and clever, but it just strikes me as odd how he never has a go at another player for a poor challenge, or indeed at his own team-mates for a poor pass. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I've only put it there to piss off the "haters". I've been called a Kagawa fanboy a little too many times to not just embrace the role
But read above: I admit that Kagawa isn't as good as Özil for instance. It's not like I'm completely blind. But judging by the things he's done for Dortmund and Japan, there's no doubt that he's a classy player. He just needs more time.
I've only put it there to piss off the "haters". I've been called a Kagawa fanboy a little too many times to not just embrace the role
But read above: I admit that Kagawa isn't as good as Özil for instance. It's not like I'm completely blind. But judging by the things he's done for Dortmund and Japan, there's no doubt that he's a classy player. He just needs more time.
Fair enough. He does need more time, but we'll see how much Moyes gives him.Which makes you wonder why we bought him.
Not meaning to nitpick, but he's had several games like that for Japan. I just chose that game because of the opponent. Italy is a little stronger than the average Asian team
Kagawa did also carry Japan to win the Asian Cup in 2010. His efforts in the semi-final against South Korea were crucial to the victory. The only trophy he's won so far that he hasn't played a big part in, is ironically the PL trophy. Still, it's nice to have in the collection, I guess...
Not hard to see what happened here. He's having the time of his life in Germany, playing brilliant football and, most importantly, shagging a porn star. Then he moves to United and as quickly as you can say "Was that Giggsy I just saw climbing out the bedroom window?" he looks like he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders.
"The nastier the better" according to the tabloids. Maybe that's what's giving him a hangdog expression. Must have been fun when he took her home to meet mum and dad.
That's good to know, lets sell him to Dortmund for 50m if they think he is better than Ozil.
When are people gonna stop wrongly accusing Fergie for this?!
Fergie himself showed a lot of faith in Kagawa. Did you know he started around 70-75% of the PL games when he was fit? You can't say that a player who starts 3 out of 4 Premier League games in his first season isn't given a lot of faith. It's also been well established that Fergie rated Kagawa even before we signed him. Fergie personally overruled the scout in Germany(he adviced us NOT to sign Kagawa) to bring him in. He's also made several quotes about Kagawa having a bright future for us.
Does this sound like a manager who doesn't show a lot of faith in Kagawa?
The bold is not even remotely true. They are quite different players, which is why Kagawa can be a superior player than Özil, even though in a classic pissing contest Özil would take it most of the time, because his most characteristic strenghts, his vision and passing, can be used more universally that Kagawa´s more specific skill set. The German is also more proven and established.
Kagawa is not a play maker, he mostly does not create attacking chains, but ends them either by himself (he is a way better finisher that Özil) or with the final pass. The most important difference between them and the reason why Kagawa is in my eyes a better choice for Klopp´s system is his pressing play, which is miles apart from Özil.
There also lies probably Kagawa´s biggest problem at United. His problem is not so much positional, but rather about the style. Kagawa loses a lot of his impact on the game without a pressing system. Kagawa was valuable for us (Dortmund) not only in the offensive, but also in the defensive, making him a very important and highly rated player as a whole. The missing pressing system at United was always my main reason for being skeptical about his chances at Old Trafford. Even if he gets more game time, even if he is allowed to play in the CAM, as long as United does not make a severe change in overall style, Kagawa will never reach his personal highest level, because a main part of his strengths will remain unused. That does not mean, that he can still become valuable for United, though.
Hey Spahero, good post, but I wrote relatively similar
A few, not many.
It doesn't matter as much as you think though. One of them went to Real Madrid and quickly established himself as second only to Ronaldo in stature there. By early evidence, he's settled just as well in England.
Kagawa went to your lot and is having trouble getting games ahead of Ashley Young and Danny Welbeck.
Back in the day, Trezeguet was also more impressive than Henry at Monaco. No doubt who turned out the better player though. Ozil has maintained his level as the demands rose, improved it even. Kagawa has plummeted.
Hey Spahero, good post, but I wrote relatively similar
Don't want to hate on you, but 'relatively' is simply wrong unless you mean it as 'small gifted guy who plays behind the striker'.
Ozil is certainly a better player. He's played better at a higher level for a longer time at different clubs. For all Kagawa's talent he hasn't played to that level for us, only for a couple of seasons at Dortmund. Beyond that, even Kagawa's defenders seem to accept that he needs to be deployed in a very specific system, while Ozil has played to a similar level in several teams and leagues. I like Kagawa but he's not close to Ozil's standard atm.
They both thrive behind the striker, but they can also play on the wing. They're both technically gifted and like to be involved in the game with the ball in their feet. They both have a good first touch and can hold the ball well. They both have a good eye for a pass. They're both very mobile players, without necessarily running into opponents in order to win back the ball. They are both fairly two-footed. They both seem to prefer assists over goals(Kagawa has said so himself).
Even if they're different in the more important and defining factors, you can't deny that they're fairly similar when it comes to the "rough" points. To say that they are completely different players, is an exagerration to say the least. You make it sound like Özil has the same playstyle as Rooney.
Özil's typical movement is lateral, starting behind the striker then drifting to the right flank, whereas Kagawa moves towards the goal.
Özil is a world class passer - no matter what, Kagawa is not, he may be somewhat close to him when it comes to seemingly simple yet clever/effective short passes, but in terms of vision and range Özil is miles head of Kagawa. If you give Özil space he's likely to really hurt you, no matter what kind of style your team plays. Kagawa on the other hand pretty much depends on his entire offensive being very fluid, give him a lot of space but no mates nearby and he's likely gonna look mediocre.
Özil's dribbling is a lot better, he can take on the opposition 1v1, something which Kagawa (despite his great first touch) sort of struggles at.
Özil's finishing has been rather woeful. Kagawa on the other hand is a goal threat.
Kagawa (given that you play a collective pressing) has been outstanding in terms of defensive contribution. For Özil on the other hand that is probably his biggest weakness (aside from scoring) which he has been constantly critisized for.
That's why Özil will be class in pretty much any given team (aside from teams that rely very heavily on collective pressing like Dortmund e.g.), whereas Kagawa depends a lot on the whole setup.
And again do.ob, I agree with all of this(though I didn't realize that Özil's finishing was that bad. I also think that Kagawa's passing is massively underrated.) My point is just that the similarities they do share makes it hard to say that they are completely different players. That really makes it sound like Özil is some kind Rooney.
Good post, though.
Good post, though.
Well.. call it completely different type of AM then, because one can't play the (best) role of the other. Özil in a way is a classic no10, whereas Kagawa is more a no9.5/supporting striker or w/e you want to call it.
Kagawa and Ozil aren't comparable at this moment in time. It's completely one sided.
I wouldn't trust a United supporter to give a decent assessment of one of our players, let alone anyone else.
Ozil > Kagawa quite easily.
Kagawa's a better goalscorer, more two-footed and a more hardworking player.
Özil trumps him at just about everything else and is the better player overall.
They were a lot closer in ability when Kagawa was at Dortmund but Özil improved considerably since he joined Real, whereas Kagawa has stagnated at United.
Özil trumps him at just about everything else and is the better player overall.
They were a lot closer in ability when Kagawa was at Dortmund but Özil improved considerably since he joined Real, whereas Kagawa has stagnated at United.
Diving in a bit here, but are you saying the abilities of Kagawa and Ozil are similar? They're similarly styled players with the way they both float about to brilliantly find space, but excellent in small spaces, neither particularly good in front of goal (despite Ozil's goal this week). But Ozil is a class above in every single area. Ozil's one of the best players in the world and Kagawa is not. As someone said, let's see if anyone would play £42m for Kagawa (which I believe was great value for Ozil). The Spanish press are going mad that Ozil was sold and is using it as a stick to beat Ancelotti and Madrid with. They're calling it a crisis and Ozil is the reason for it. He's that good. Kagawa, whilst supremely talented, is dispensable.
I love Kagawa, but when we play him on the left wing he's useless. There's ability there, and had we not signed RVP who knows where he'd be, but he hasn't been able to displace Rooney despite the occasional excellent performance. My issue with him is that he's a defensive liability. He's great when he has no defensive responsibility.
Keep in mind that Sphaero wasn't talking in general but about Dortmund. The obstacle there (money aside) wouldn't be his offensive ability but his defensive shortcomings. Because Dortmund rely so heavily on their pressing they most likely wouldn't be able to sustain their system effectively if they had a player who can be a bit lethargic from time to time.
Good thing that I´m not one. I´m a Dortmund supporter with symphathies for around a dozen German clubs and a handful of international ones. United is among them, but that does not automatically too biased to rate someone, otherwise I would not have that much to write.
You could think, that Kagawa´s past could make me biased, but then again I´m one of the most outspoken people around here when it comes to my sceptism and critics about Kagawa. You just have to look at my past posts in this thread or the one in the newbies. Hell, I was promoted mainly on the back of posts about this topic and most of them were not overly positive.
You are free to disagree with me, that Kagawa is a better fit for Dortmund than Özil (nothing else was the essence of that quoted post), but the bias card does not really cut it in my case.
So Özil is a better pressing player, has higher work rate and the same level when it comes to finishing?
Thats nonsense.
Like I said before, Özil is generally the better player, yes, but he is sure as hell not better in every sense than Kagawa.
I'm not speaking about pressing, as neither seems to do much of it. Higher work rate? Hard to say. It might just be highlighted due to the difference between Kag and Rooney. Rooney can be found on his own byline. You'll never see Kagawa there. That's not to say he's less hard working than Ozil, but I've never seen anything from him to suggest his work rate is a positive attribute. I certainly don't see it as anything special. In terms of finishing I'd say they're very similar. Kagawa scored a hat trick last season, one of those goals came from a totally scuffed shot, but yes, his finishing was poor last season. On a similar level to Cleverley I'd say.
Watching that is utterly utterly depressing. It like watching a completely different player.
You base everything on his United performances, when basically everyone on here agrees that he is not performing on his personal top level due to being placed in a completely different system and new position and struggling to adapt.
So, of course you don´t see much pressing. United does not run a pressing system. Dortmund does, which is one of the reasons why playing there is extremely demanding when it comes to fitness and movement. If they play their favourite system, they basically always run more than the opponents. They covered for example as team 17km more distance than Marseille on Tuesday. If Kagawa would not have at least above average (he has more, because even at Dortmund he was one of hardest workers) workrate he would have never survived, even less shined there.
He never gets a proper run in the side that's half of the problem. If he was to play 10 or so games in a row he'd come out of that run looking like one of our best players, starting 1 in 6 games is a waste of time.
Okay then, so he's a worker, and you don't see that at United due to our style of play, but I didn't see it at all. I've seen almost no tracking back from him when playing as a #10. He doesn't seem to bust a gut to get back when playing out wide either. This is what I'm referring to, you shouldn't need to say "He worked hard at another club," as a work rate should transcend teams and styles.
I was absolutely delighted when we signed him. Genuinely thought he would develop into a world class player. It just makes that depressing to watch to be honest. I hope we can get him playing anywhere near as good as this. An exceptional talent.
Yes but to be honest, have we really given him much of a chance? Even under Fergie he's been played all over the place, just like Welbeck, Jones and so many others are. Talk about England but United do it a hell of a lot too. Kagawa is obviously quality, excelled in a strong team before and has scored goals here too but under Moyes it doesn't look good for him so far, he prefers more hard workers than SAF.
Kagawa did a better job for Dortmund than Özil did. Özil then joined a team that had Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, De Maria and topped with Jose Mourinho. Of course, Ozil's performance would be boosted by the world class players & manager he's surrounded with. Even Arbeola & Lassana Diarra look world class @ Madrid.
Is Kagawa better than Özil overall? I would have to say a resounding yes to that. The only reason Özil costs more is because he's European, a German with a rich pedigree in football whilst Kagawa is from Asia & playing for Japan. Kagawa is the Asian player of the year & yet you think his value shouldn't be more than Özil that's never been in anyone's top ten in Europe?
In raw statistics in the Bundesliga....
Kagawa had 21 goals + 13 assists in 49 league matches(3762 minutes). Özil had 13 goals + 38 assists in 101 league games(6669 minutes).
For their respective countries,
Ozil has 15 goals in 49 games. Kagawa has scored 15 goals in 47 games for Japan. Had Kagawa been born near Cheshire close to Sir Alex's residence, he would be worth around £80m that Real Madrid shelled on Gareth Bale.
At no point did Arbeloa or Diarra look world class for Real Madrid. You're a massive Kagawa fanboy if you think he's better than Özil and could be worth £80m. The argument about Kagawa being the best player in Asia and Özil not being among the best 10 in Europe is ludicrous, it's like saying Harry Kewell was a better player than Giggs.
Kagawa directly replaced Ozil at Dortmund and that was when Dortmund won 2 league titles in a row. Kagawa left Dortmund and they are back in the wilderness. The Kewell/Giggs analogy is misplaced. I have given you their raw statistics in the same team they played in Germany. Kagawa outperformed Ozil - you can do the math yourself. Real Madrid bought Ozil around the same price United bought Kagawa, didn't they?
Özil didn't even play for Dortmund, ever.
And what the actual feck about the bolded part? They reached CL final last season FFS, the only reason why they weren't competitive in the league was because Bayern left no room for that, they beat Dortmund's record by 7 or 8 points.
And Kewell/Giggs analogy is the same - Kewell was the best player on his continent for a spell of his career and Giggs was never the best player in Europe. It doesn't make sense and neither does your statement.
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