Unless he was treading the same path as Berbatov before him.
Shinji Kagawa
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Unless he was treading the same path as Berbatov before him.
First, Berbatov was too slow, and now, Kagawa is too fast for our "style of play". Why buy players if you can't assimilate them into the team or tweak the tactics a bit to get the best out of them?
Kagawa started roughly 75% of the PL and CL games when he was fit. To say that he wasn't given much faith under Fergie is therefore utter bullshit. This really can't be repeated enough.
People seem to be forgetting the last 2-3 months of the season where he was starting almost every game, and he started 1 of our 2 biggest games of the season (away to Madrid), so obviously Sir Alex had big plans for him. He was just unlucky with the injuries at the start.
I still think SAF bought him knowing that Rooney would inevitably kick up another fuss and want to move on again, and we wouldn't be left in a position where losing him would be so detrimental to the team. Unfortunately for Kagawa, Moyes took over and kept Rooney, and love him or loathe him, he's a better player than Kagawa and was always going to get the games ahead of him.
Yes that must be it. And also starting him on the left rather than in the centre. So mistaking perceived misuse as no use.
While this may very well be true, I can't help but feel there is something else to it. I have recently discussed Moyes in detail and have stated that the obvious pressure on the man must be very uncomfortable. Put yourself in his position and imagine the fallout of not only being the man who took over from Sir Alex Ferguson, but, to come to a club of the stature of Manchester United and have your first act to be dropping England's golden boy. I know people will give him credit for rejuvenating Rooney, but, I reckon it was an attempt at stamping his authority with a quick U-turn.
Kagawa is utilized on the left to accommodate Honda. If Moyes were to construct a formation to utilize one players abilities, he is more than likely going to harm the ability of at least one other player.
Very good lol
Who? Please elaborate here
It's not constructing a formation to utilize one player's ability. Do you honestly think our midfield is good enough for a 4-4-2? Because the majority of people will tell you it's not. So why not kill 2 birds with one stone by playing a more modern formation that could cover up our gaps in the middle by firstly playing someone just in front of those 2 to help them out (in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3) and allowing our wide players more freedom to concentrate on the attack with less defensive responsibility (again in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, where players like Nani/Kagawa/Januzaj would surely shine)
Well except that Rooney isnt' even doing the job for which Kagawa is competing.
And i think for many people the increased annoyance lies not so much with the lack of starts ahead of Rooney necessarily, but rather Kagawa's utter absence as a substitute or at those times Wayne has been injured/unused himself. It speaks of something specific to Moyes' view of the player, and the team's need for his abilities be damned.
Now Kagawas isn't the only player being affected by changes in managerial policy, the plights of Hernandez and Zaha are also worrying to varying degrees. What would be a shame is if we ended up losing two players as a result of this stubbornness, after all it's not as if we don't have enough else to be investing our transfer budget in without creating unnecessary problems.
I think Moyes is deservedly reluctant to rotate, at least to the extent where SAF did. he's trying to find his best team and stick with it for the moment, for different reasons, he doesn't feel the players mentioned above are worthy of being in his best team, and because he doesn't know the squad nearly as well as SAF did, he's not taking the sort of risks with rotation and giving players run-outs to prove themselves like he did. I think Saturday's team is pretty close to what our main XI will be this season and I'd say it won't change much.
I think Michael Carrick has the been the best one man midfield in Europe for a while now - so yeah, I agree that our side could do with modernizing the formation. I'm not arguing with that at all. I was responding to the statement that related to Kagawa playing on the left for Japan and Moyes being a tactical dinosaur. Regardless of Shinji Kagawa playing on the left for Japan, he is a central player that thrives on creating opportunites when going through the centre. Klopp himself has been quoted as saying 'Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United – on the left wing! My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes. Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw' (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/21/jurgen-klopp-borussia-dortmund-champions-league).
Regardless of your statement and your obvious feelings towards 442 and our midfield not being good enough for the dinosaur formation, You stick Shinji Kagawa beside Michael Carrick and I am certain (maybe not in the first minute of the first game - Feeler time) we could manage 442.
I doubt it though. Not in a midfield two at least. You could put Kagawa in a midfield three with Carrick and Cleverley and it'd work to perfection, but that would require a change in formation regardless. I do think the problem is Rooney, who's making us so rigid in terms of formations.
You could very well apply a midfield 3 with Cleverley and it would add that desired stability. You know what you will get with Cleverley - constantly making himself available for a pass and with such, providing the absolute perfect outlet for Kagawa to infiltrate the opposition with his rapid 1-2's and quick passing. What you are suggesting though is essentially swapping Rooney for Kagawa and this is where we find ourselves now.
Obviously I do not know any of these guys personally but from what I had seen prior to Kagawa's arrival, in conjunction with what I have studied since his arrival - in conjunction what Klopp's assessment, I personally think that just ignoring the possibility of Carrick/Kagawa is foolish.
Yes - but what does Klopp mean by "central midfielder"? He didn't use Kagawa as anything close to a "Carrick's partner in our set-up" role - not that I'm aware of anyway. On paper he has certain attributes which might suit a CM, but I think ultimately he is too much of an attacker. And his tendency to get bullied off the ball wouldn't be less problematic in a CM role. I'm sure that he would work well in a midfield three, as the spearhead, but not in a two.
We got away with Carrick-Scholes in midfield many times..
Kagawa might not give us quite the same level of control, but since Carrick has stepped up and taken that mantle I'm not sure we'd be much worse on the ball? Off the ball? Less dangerous fouls, more pressure. It'd give us a similar/better goal threat from deep and regain that creativity.
As silly as it seems, and I agree it definitely isn't ideal, I'd like to see it given a shot.
Kagawa might not give us quite the same level of control, but since Carrick has stepped up and taken that mantle I'm not sure we'd be much worse on the ball? Off the ball? Less dangerous fouls, more pressure. It'd give us a similar/better goal threat from deep and regain that creativity.
As silly as it seems, and I agree it definitely isn't ideal, I'd like to see it given a shot.
I am certain he would work well in a midfield 3 as the spearhead also - you will get no argument from me there. When I conceive the possibility of playing Kagawa beside Carrick, I am not labelling Kagawa as 'Carrick's partner in our set-up'. It has recently emerged that Mr Rooney is not ready to play midfield, he has informed us that he is a forward and this is where he wants to play. Kagawa is a playmaker and with such, I can't see the issue in him utilizing this role beside one of the finest central midfield players in world football. In all honesty, what better player to establish yourself beside? This is where squad depth comes to fruition. If Kagawa were to be having one of those games where he is being 'bullied off the ball' in an unfitting manner, the addition of Fellani will ease such...for example.
The argument of 'times, football and formations' are changing will always surface with regards to this but I stand firmly beside this. Why could this not work?It's not like Kagawa is a winger that we are trying to transition into a central player. He is a central player that has all of the ability/technique to run a game. Add Mr Carrick to that and we are singing IMO.
It will be argued that because of his size, he will be bullied and not carry the same defensive capabilities. With all due respect, he is quick enough to get around a player, he is quick enough to track back and make a hindrance of himself.
If it becomes apparent that he's available, I'd have thought most big clubs would be in for him.
City, Chelsea, PSG and Monaco can probably beat us on a purely financial basis, while Madrid and Barcelona tend to be more attractive than us to a lot of players. Then there's Bayern, who are right at the top and seem to have no problem releaving Dortmund of all their best players, and maybe an outside shot for Arsenal with their four current Germans and Wenger's apparent ability to lure our teutonic friends (especially if they were to win the league or make the Champions League final).
Or, to put it another way: Have you seen us trying to lure big-name midfielders recently?
Manchester United is Manchester United. With or without Sir Alex at the helm, do you not consider us to have the capabilities to attract a player to the club - if he is deemed as an actual target?
You do? He's used 24 players in the league this season, that's four more than any of the other big clubs, and 6 more than a couple of them.
What you propose, then, is to let him have a go as a central midfielder alongside Carrick - with us still retaining our present formation, which is a 4-2-something (a 4-2-3-1 looking dangerously like a 4-4-2 at times, let's put it like that)? Well, alright. I don't think it's lunacy - it could work against a certain type of opponent. The question is how long it would take to naturalize Kagawa in such a role - and whether this is the time to try such an experiment.
As for the more obvious option - to simply start setting up with a three man midfield (either behind a lone striker, still retaining two wingers OR behind a more fluid attacking trio) the problem with this is indeed Rooney. Or rather the impossibility of fielding both Rooney and RVP in such a set up. If I were Moyes I'd be ruthless when it comes to this. If those two can't form a partnership which is devastating enough to outweigh the negatives (in terms of formation, fluidity, going into Zombie mode, etc.) then I'd just drop one of them. Bench Rooney or play him as a sheer striker.
It's possible, but if some of those others are in for him, then there are a lot of players out there who would rather go to them. Depends on the individual player, but many would chose one of the others, if their club accepted bids from both clubs.
And that's not taking into account the possibility of being outbid by most of the clubs mentioned, so it's not even down to the player.
To be fair though, he's mostly trying to find his best team and a lot of that was due to injuries. With regards to defense he's mostly been very stubborn with who he'll pick, at least up until Vidic got injured and he realized Rio is way past it. Same with RvP and Rooney, obviously Carrick speaks for himself, and our wingers probably encompass half of that 24 we've been using so many players there to figure out which are the least shit.
My main point is that there are certain positions that he already feels he knows his best players in, mainly attack with Rooney and RvP, so that's why he's far less likely to afford players like Hernandez and Kagawa chances, and I think Kagawa will be even more doomed now with Nani and Janazuj likely to be our first choicer wing combination.
It's all a learning curve for him really, look how much he used Young at first whilst he was trying to figure things out, now, thankfully, he's basically been relegated to the reserves side like the useless lump of shite he is.
- Why do we have to assume that Kagawa would be neutralized in such a role? What possible basis of past performances/ability could suggest this?
- TBH, I don't think there has ever been a better time. That is just my opinion but other than attempting such with the league won and a few games to go, what harm could come from it now? Could it really make things worse?
You can't just take Rooney into every conversation about Kagawa (not you but in general). They are different players and offer different skill-sets. Why can we not have them both?
Carrick Kagawa
Nani Januzaj
Rooney RVP
What is wrong with that?
This is true. I just hate this idea that United are vulnerable with regards to being interested in a player that the Spaniards are also keen on. While it has been the case before, it is ludicrous to conceive that every player would rather Barca over United. I know for a fact that supporters of the German league are very keen supporters of the English league. They feel as though it is similar to their own unlike the likes of Spain/Italy, which can look like a drama at times. I am sure that players in the German league could share this opinion (ie - the influx of Germans to the league). While I am aware that the man you had originally stated is not German - he is with them week in, week out.
In a world where money often talks, there has got to players that are fans through it all. Manchester United is one of the biggest clubs in the world with a remarkable stadium. What player would not want that?
I'd agree about the forwards and Carrick (though none of these are surprising in their own ways). Not sure what you mean about him being stubbron in defence though - he's played 9 different defenders in 8 league matches.
Well, firstly I said naturalized (as in growing into the role), not neutralized!
Secondly, there's nothing wrong with your line-up. In theory. But it's largely theoretical, ain't it? Kagawa has never been tried in such a role. I agree that it could work - but it could also fail miserably. Kagawa has many qualities which suit a CM - but so has Wayne Rooney, to make an example. Having such qualities doesn't make you a midfielder.
When you look at our attack we have three obvious competing pairs for an attacking three:
Left - Rooney/Welbeck
Centre - RVP/Hernandez
Right - Nani/Januzaj
Kagawa plays in behind those; then Carrick, Cleverley and Fellaini battle for two CM spots.
Left - Rooney/Welbeck
Centre - RVP/Hernandez
Right - Nani/Januzaj
Kagawa plays in behind those; then Carrick, Cleverley and Fellaini battle for two CM spots.
My bad, I misread that. It is indeed theoretical. I don't think it is as unnatural to imagine such an idea though. Kagawa has played numerous games at CM in his career. I would ask you to have a look as this video and you will see just how often he has collected the ball from deep and utilized his god-given ability.
Dortmund's movement off the ball is ridiculous, a good passer can only flourish in such a system.
Is it really so difficult to comprehend Nani, Januzaj, Rooney and RVP providing something similar in an attacking outlet for Kagawa? I firmly believe that if he has quick,intelligent players in front of him (as he will), then there is absolutely no reason he can not run the show for us ~ala Scholes
Half decent player, ain't he? Yes, again he has plenty of CM like qualities in terms of movement and passing skills - but actually playing as a CM is still a different kettle of fish. And koroux touches on something important above: Movement. There are options around him all the time, plenty of players making runs simultaneously - we just don't play like that most of the time. You could argue that we should - but we don't. So, realistically the conditions for any CM coming in alongside Carrick for us would be very, very different.
It's also interesting to see how often he creates something from a wide position, by the way. Just looking at these clips you'd think he'd be a great left winger for us. But context is everything. What is obvious, though, is that the lad can play football. It would be a damned shame if we can't get something out of him.
Depressing video.
I agree with what both of you are saying. I also agree that it is a different style of play and therefore, a player coming in from X to Z would find it difficult to make the change. The great thing about Kagawa is that he has been here for a season already. He is leaning all the time and with his footballing brain, I am sure that if he does not already understand the fluidity/capabilities of his team-mates, he has a fair idea.
However, as previously stated, this is indeed all theoretical and unfortunately, I don't pick the team
I can't say it any better than you have previously put - ' It would be a damned shame if we can't get something out of him'.There is no way we can possibly fit in Rooney, RVP, Nani, Kagawa and Januzaj in the same team. One of them have to be dropped, because Kagawa couldn't be able to play in a midfield two. IMO we shouldn't even be playing a midfield 2, but we are, and since we are, we need a more all round midfielder next to Carrick. Kagawa is naturally an offensive midfielder, and Rooney is naturally a forward so his first role would be to attack always. When we play with a 4-2-3-1 with Rooney in the hole, it is completely different to Kagawa there because Kagawa is more midfield oriented, more into keeping the ball and passing it around rather then Rooney who would drive forward with it.
Because we have both Rooney and RVP here, we have no choice but to start them, which means either we drop wingers and use a diamond like formation to fit in Kagawa, or we play him on the left. Either way, one of Kagawa/Januzaj/Nani would be dropped. Starting Kagawa in a midfield two would be better then putting Giggs there going forward, but it would be pretty much the same, or even worse, defensively. We would get overrun even more then we do now I think. Our best option for central midfield, at United, next to Carrick, is Cleverley probably. He's a mobile midfielder who is also a good passer, but he has great energy levels and that's what your midfielders need to have in a midfield 2 IMO. That's why Fellaini's been shite, because he doesn't have great work rate, and even though Kagawa has great energy levels and stamina, he isn't the best defensively, and doesn't exactly get stuck in.
Anyway, I don't think Kagawa is suited to us really, at least not the way we played last season and look to be playing under Moyes. Kagawa is technically superior then most of our players and our play is too static and slow for him, sadly. It's a bit depressing because United is always associated with quick, counter attacking wing play, but lately we've had the shite, slow, static-zombie passing, which is pretty bad to watch.
Because we have both Rooney and RVP here, we have no choice but to start them, which means either we drop wingers and use a diamond like formation to fit in Kagawa, or we play him on the left. Either way, one of Kagawa/Januzaj/Nani would be dropped. Starting Kagawa in a midfield two would be better then putting Giggs there going forward, but it would be pretty much the same, or even worse, defensively. We would get overrun even more then we do now I think. Our best option for central midfield, at United, next to Carrick, is Cleverley probably. He's a mobile midfielder who is also a good passer, but he has great energy levels and that's what your midfielders need to have in a midfield 2 IMO. That's why Fellaini's been shite, because he doesn't have great work rate, and even though Kagawa has great energy levels and stamina, he isn't the best defensively, and doesn't exactly get stuck in.
Anyway, I don't think Kagawa is suited to us really, at least not the way we played last season and look to be playing under Moyes. Kagawa is technically superior then most of our players and our play is too static and slow for him, sadly. It's a bit depressing because United is always associated with quick, counter attacking wing play, but lately we've had the shite, slow, static-zombie passing, which is pretty bad to watch.
SAF could (should ?) have instilled a new of play for Utd but then again he really wanted that last title so badly that he preferred to use trusted methods. When Kagawa was signed, I had hoped it was a signal of a change in attacking style but sadly Kagawa was signed to not change anything at all at Utd. It hasn't been helped with him not performed optimally (for all the reasons ranging from inconsistency, injuries and loss of faith by managers).
Our attacking play is predictable and we have the players to play much much better than what we've seen so far this season.
Xavi, Pirlo would struggle if there is not as much movement in front of them as they're used to. The way Carrick has been playing, for me, is even more impressive because a passer needs people around him to create space and possibilities. We can do and we do that but not nearly enough for a lot of fans liking, it's depressing to see Carrick carrying to look only for him to have next to no good option.
Realistically, I don't think its all doom and gloom. He is contracted to the club and wants to play for the club. Klopp stated that he tried to get him back but that he wants to be at United. I can not see a failure in this one. He is too good a player to be left rotting on the bench. Shinji Kagawa will have a solid opportunity to show the world what he can do yet.
Obviously we have got players capable or playing much better and to think they won't is naive. That ship will settle
Judge, jury and executioner. I won't argue/debate with you about who is the right partner for Carrick in a 442 because all you have to do is look at last/this season to see the results. Refer back to my previous posts and you will see my opinions on the matter. Personally, I think most of what you have wrote above is tripe. That's just me though and your opinion is as valid as mine
Some of the linking up with Lewandowski, Gundogan etc etc ... It's like how I play on a videogame.
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