Problem is, a player like Rooney can have three or four piss poor matches in a row and not be substituted. Kagawa can have a mediocre 45 minutes, then be substituted never to play again. Where's Moyes' logic in that?
Shinji Kagawa
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Problem is, a player like Rooney can have three or four piss poor matches in a row and not be substituted. Kagawa can have a mediocre 45 minutes, then be substituted never to play again. Where's Moyes' logic in that?
I've played as United between six and eight times on Pro Evo. I think it's fair to say I know what I'm talking about.
Götze has never once played as winger in his career, neither at Bayern nor in Dortmund. In Bayern he plays as part of their 3 man midfield and Dortmund simply does not use winger. Width is provided by the FB´s with the actual "wide" player cutting constantly into the center and rotating with each other.
Neymar is an inward forward/striker and given the rotation in the front 3 at Barca it is not in the slightest comparable to United.
Cazorla and the movement at Arsenal is similar (Özil, Rosicky and him where everywhere on the pitch yesterday vs. Dortmund).
The problem is NOT the position, it is the system. A system that is so different to Japan´s it is not even funny.
The logic is that Rooney has past games to trade on, we know investing games in Rooney brings rewards, we are not guaranteed that with Kagawa in this league.
The point still stands, you cannot alter the whole system to accommodate a player that may not shine even then. He has to show more to get the faith a run of games or a change of system requires.
I presume it's a combination of things: he thinks Rooney's a better, more important player for us, he trusts him more (based, I guess, on knowing Rooney well as a player and what he's seen from them both so far), the fact that Rooney's more disciplined defensively and is more accustomed to our system, which is important to him and the obvious issue of what happens if he drops Rooney. In respect of the latter, I know people will say that shouldn't be a factor - and tbh, it's a discussion for another thread - but in reality we all know it is. If he's dropped the whole situation Moyes fought so hard to keep a lid on will start up again.
I'm not saying he was used as a 'winger' though, am I? I'm naming central players that were used out wide, obviously you know more about Dortmund than me but I think Gotze has played a few games on the right, no?
I already said Neymar is more a #9, it was more an example of a player who has adapted to playing that sort of position.
You're mistaking me for saying Kagawa should be used as a winger and perform as a winger, I'm not, I'm saying that if we do play him wide, he should be able to adapt to the position, not necessarily as a winger.
We may as well give it a try because our football sucks and the results are rubbish. I don't think RvP has been given anywhere near enough service so far.
Are you serious? I've seen Moyes hammered for selecting players having a poor opening 10 minutes and then coming good, he is no position to putting faith in a player who has shown so little.
The issue with service to RvP has been far more because of our midfielders playing so deep and our misfiring wingers than the player behind him. Thankfully we look to have found the right wing combination, it's the midfield that needs to be fixed up now.
The service to him last year was far from brilliant either but he still managed to bang them in from every angle.
I don´t expect a system change just like I don´t expect much of a future for Kagawa at United. My whole point is, that in your current system the only viable position for him is as offensive midfielder behind the striker, a position which is occupied by Rooney. This is also why As it stands right now, it is either him or Kagawa and I know which choice is more likely.
It is just not a matter of versatility but one of compatibility with the system, which is the main reason why I was always sceptical about Kagawa at United. The only real choice Kagawa has at the moment is to change his play style, which is not only extremely hard but also normally takes a long time.
Aye, he has missed a few that he buried last year. Suddenly Kagawa is the answer to all of our problems.
All that is fine, but asking him to play in a different system may hinder him but not render him as lost as he has looked. He may be struggling with other elements, as there is no way he is that one dimensional a footballer. It was no dead cert he would fail here.
I find it baffling really. I think it's a common thing on the Caf where by if a player has been out or not featuring for long enough, and the team is struggling, this player then develops a bit of a mythical status and people think he'll magically solve all our problems if we start to play him. Kagawa hasn't justified this notion of shifting our whole team balance around to integrate him in, yet somehow people think that's actually viable.
I want him to get games, but not at the expense of Rooney, who is a better player behind the striker, and has been largely really good this season. If he gets games, it'll probably be on the left, and if he's as good as this lot are making him out to be (and to be fair, he was great at Dortmund), then he'll deliver there!
Agree entirely, I was thrilled when he signed, but he has been flat and although my type of player I would hesitate at building the team around him just yet.
I agree he hasn't for us but by all accounts he was pretty sensational for Dortmund behind the striker. He hasn't been given a fair chance to see if he can do the same for us.
He's amazing. I wanted him as Fergie's successor ahead of Guardiola or Mourinho. And the football he gets your team to play is simply
Yeah I also voted for Klopp in that manager poll thread we had. I would have loved him here.
He was brilliant for Dortmund, but football is not always that simple. There are many factors. He's not the first quality player who struggled here. A fair chance has to be earned at a club like United, we can't give people game after game or alter our style in the hope Kagawa may settle. Especially if it means dropping Rooney, our best player this year, and pissing him off as a result?
As people constantly point out, he played 75% of the games he was fit for last season, and Rooney was regularly dropped so he could play behind the striker. Did he show enough signs for us to say he should be first choice there, let alone we should build the team to accommodate him? I don't think so.
Moyes may not be giving him the chances this year, but as Brophs said, he was unfit when Moyes came, and in his best position, Rooney has been playing very well, and on the left, Januzaj has been excellent, so I'm not overly surprised he hasn't had many chances.
He probably should've gotten more games back a few weeks ago instead of Young/Giggs on the left though.
He was tried there last season and we ended up using him down the left because he struggled to make an impact. I seem to remember one example being when we played Spurs and Fergie moved him all over to try and get him in the game.
If we play 4-2-3-1, I think a good #10 should be able to play anywhere in that bank of 3. Left, right, central, and I think he certainly has the skillset to excel there, but he's had limited chances to impress. He didn't get much of a pre-season, so I think expecting Kagawa to be firing at full-tilt on the few short appearances he's made - as some in this thread are suggesting - is unfair. He needs a run of games.
I think even Ozil would struggle in our team linking up with Valencia and Young. They were dog shit the whole season. I think it would be a different story with Nani and Januzaj.
We don't have to drop Rooney, we could drop RvP. Their partnership - apart from a couple of great Rooney passes - isn't that great and they don't work very well together.
I've seen this said a few times and it seems crazy to me. Dropping the best striker in the world makes no sense, especially as, even though his form hasn't been great, he's still scoring goals!
Justice for Kagawa (and Posh Spice).
I'm away for a walk.
I'm away for a walk.
Rooney's form over last three games has been really poor, I never saw Kagawa playing so shit in a competitive game for us like Rooney did in our last two games, and Kagawa was benched for much better performances even after half time, so I don't see why don't Rooney deserve to be dropped for at least one game. And anyway, he has played lot of football lately, and he could use some rest.
They're both brilliant but as a pair it doesn't work. I don't think our midfield is good enough to accommodate two strikers.
Yes, Götze played plenty games on the right side, just like he did on the left one. This does not change that Dortmund´s system is extremely different to United´s and focuses on completely different aspects of the game.
Maybe I don´t bring my point across correctly (language barrier or something^^), but a system impacts way more things than the single positions. All running and passing paths are depending on it.
You say, that you don´t want Kagawa to be used as a winger and provide width, but that is from my perspective counter productive to your system, because it is build on width. That is why you sacrafice pressure in the central area by using that formation and system. Cutting into the central area from the side seems like a complete waste, because there is basically no movement there which costs him most of his value. For your system a proper winger, who actually does the job of a winger seems like the better alternative, because it plays to your strengths better.
I'm very aware that we play a different system than Dortmund, and to be honest, I'd much rather their fecking system than our ... whatever the hell it currently is, but sadly, that's not the case, it's not likely to be the case in the foreseeable future, and that's why we can't just keep saying "we need Kagawa to be utilized properly, like he was at Dortmund", because it probably just won't happen.
If he wants to make it here, he simply has to adapt to the system, we've seen plenty of players come here who could, we've also seen players come here who couldn't. I hope it's the former for him but all signs point to it being the latter right now.
I think the main source of peoples opinions, such as 'build a team around Kagawa' and drop Rooney for him to play as a number 10' are still forming from his form at Dormund. Which is quite sad.
He's done nothing at United yet to justify such opinions IMO. Looking at that video a page or so back is indeed depressing, as he looks perfect for us. It's just not the reality right now though.
He's done nothing at United yet to justify such opinions IMO. Looking at that video a page or so back is indeed depressing, as he looks perfect for us. It's just not the reality right now though.
Ssh, you'll spoil my secret!
You've an awful obsession with Nani, considering how you don't rate him very highly.
Nani has actually performed at a very high level for us on many occasions though. Including CL ties vs Bayern and Madrid.
The Kagawa situation is not really that comparable.
Kagawa just simply hasn't been afforded enough consistent game time to truly adjust to United's system. When he showed signs of coming into real form last season Ferguson didn't stick with him on a consistent basis, or he inexplicably substituted him such as the game at West Ham....when he was our best player on the pitch. What the feck does that do to your confidence?
Moyes has not given him enough game time so far this season, and frankly the longer the isolation continues the less the chance that he will integrate. He doesn't look to Kagawa when he looks at the options on his bench, he looks to a 40 year old, or Welbeck every time, and to be frank what I've seen of Welbeck is nothing superior so far.
I doubt he will be a Manchester United player next season.
Moyes has not given him enough game time so far this season, and frankly the longer the isolation continues the less the chance that he will integrate. He doesn't look to Kagawa when he looks at the options on his bench, he looks to a 40 year old, or Welbeck every time, and to be frank what I've seen of Welbeck is nothing superior so far.
I doubt he will be a Manchester United player next season.
I don't think Kagawa is going to be that influential from the bench, he's been one of those players that grows into a game. At least with Welbeck you can ask him to get up and down the pitch and his pace can be an outlet late on in games.
It's quite possible that the hiring of Moyes may see the departure of both Kagawa and Chicharito in the summer. An awful thought. An awful manager.
Moyes out, Klopp in, he brings with him Gundogan and Reus. So we have an attack consisting of RVP, Reus, Kagawa and Rooney with Gundogan and Carrick sitting deep
I am of course not being serious
I am of course not being serious
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