Shinji Kagawa

[Eyepopper]

I think most of it has been perennially discussed already.

Let me just ask you something honestly, if Kagawa and RVP were to play up front and Rooney was played wide left with similar freedom in a typical united 442 then how would you judge Rooney's performance in relation to his potential ?

We also don't play a typical 442 when Kagawa plays left.


Brwned, can draw you a picture to help you understand.

 

[Tooni]

I figured you'd have difficulties opening MS Paint and working through it's complex layout.

 

[Gerald G]

I think most of it has been perennially discussed already.

Let me just ask you something honestly, if Kagawa and RVP were to play up front and Rooney was played wide left with similar freedom in a typical united 442 then how would you judge Rooney's performance in relation to his potential ?

We don't play a typical 4-4-2 plus Kagawa cuts in from the left for Japan in the same manner he does for us. The problem isn't his positioning. It's the player. He doesn't impact the game enough usually just neat little touches at the moment. The things he isn't doing right at the moment hasn't got anything to do with his positioning in my opinion it's just basic things you'd expect.

 

[Eyepopper]

I figured you'd have difficulties opening MS Paint and working through it's complex layout.

The personal insults route is always a safe bet when you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Brwned]

I think most of it has been perennially discussed already.

Let me just ask you something honestly, if Kagawa and RVP were to play up front and Rooney was played wide left with similar freedom in a typical united 442 then how would you judge Rooney's performance in relation to his potential ?

I don't understand the point you're making. Rooney has played that very position and been very influential. The Tottenham game we won 5-2 comes to mind. If that happened I would expect him to perform much better than Kagawa yesterday. Every time. Yes, playing out of position stops players from playing at their very top level and I lower my expectations accordingly. Even with those lower expectations Kagawa fails to do enough.

 

[Eyepopper]

Expect a cutting comment about pictures now Brwned, don't be caught off guard!

 

[Tooni]

The personal insults route is always a safe bet when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not hard to look back and see where it started. Give it a try.

 

[Successful]

There will probably be a time for Kagawa to show his worth. The season only just begun, we will be getting injuries and Kagawa will get to play in his best position, no worries. By then we will be able to tell whether or not he's good enough.

 

[Eyepopper]

Not hard to look back and see where it started. Give it a try.

What when I said you were talking through your arse.

Sincere apologies, if I'd have realised what a sensitive soul you were I wouldn't have chose those words, there are many different ways to tell you you don't know what you're talking about, for future reference, which would you prefer?

 

[Tooni]

What when I said you were talking through your arse.

Sincere apologies, if I'd have realised what a sensitive soul you were I wouldn't have chose those words, there are many different ways to tell you you don't know what you're talking about, for future reference, which would you prefer?

Fail to see the irony ?

 

[Eyepopper]

Fail to see the irony ?

So anyway, back to the actual point.

Do you think he's being asked or expected to play the role of a traditional winger when he plays left for Utd?

Quite simply yes.

How much time did he spend wide left today?
.

Majority of it.

You either don't know what you're talking about or you didn't actually see the game. I

 

[Tooni]

So anyway, back to the actual point.

You either don't know what you're talking about or you didn't actually see the game. I

For anyone interested, this shows where he received the ball. In the first half, he received the ball in central areas... In the second half, he was more involved down the left.

Just because I said I feel now that he was involved a bit more centrally than I first expected doesn't mean I was completely off with what I said earlier. But then I wouldn't expect you to get your head around such nuances as even simple analogies seem to fly over your head. You also seem to have it easier to understand with pictures than with words so why don't you click on the link that Money May shared and see for yourself. His involvement specially towards end of the game was wide left, now that wouldn't be possible without actually playing there would it ?

There you go.

I don't understand the point you're making. Rooney has played that very position and been very influential. The Tottenham game we won 5-2 comes to mind. If that happened I would expect him to perform much better than Kagawa yesterday. Every time. Yes, playing out of position stops players from playing at their very top level and I lower my expectations accordingly. Even with those lower expectations Kagawa fails to do enough.

I honestly don't remember many games where he was influential from wide left in a 442 and not a 433. I need to look at how many games he played there in his career and see the ones where he was more than decent and that will take some time.

 

[kouroux]

I've rarely seen a Utd player like Kagawa get as much excuses as him when he plays poorly. It's mostly something else and not him.

 

[Oggmonster]

I've rarely seen a Utd player like Kagawa get as much excuses as him when he plays poorly. It's mostly something else and not him.

I agree. I said it a while ago in this thread I genuinely think his stock rose a lot by not being in the team as people looked for solutions. Now when he does play in the league in particular he is average at best and he gets excuses being made for him instead of people maybe admitting he just doesn't suit the league. It can happen, not every player is going to be a success.

 

[KM]

Yesterday's match was frustrating for me. He was taking the simple pass approach and wasn't adventurous enough to create anything of note really. For me, he doesn't deserve to displace Rooney at the no10 spot right now. He doesn't look up for a fight and doesn't look like a Man United player to me.

Adnan inspite of being younger, less experienced and also a similar type of player has shown to influence matches from the wing, there's no reason why Kagawa can't do the same from wide positions.

 

[Eyepopper]

But but but he played for everyone's favourite second team, Dortmund.

It's Fergie, no wait, Moyes fault.

 

[Nighteyes]

I've rarely seen a Utd player like Kagawa get as much excuses as him when he plays poorly. It's mostly something else and not him.

Pretty much sums most of this thread up.

The lesser he played, the better player he became. A bit like Lucas with Liverpool.

 

[kouroux]

But but but he played for everyone's favourite second team, Dortmund.

It's Fergie, no wait, Moyes fault.

That's the thing, Klopp created such a system that allowed Kagawa to play his best football. Kagawa has to force things on his end, he has to adapt as a player to the Man Utd style of play, to the PL style of play otherwise he'll fail. The club will never change its tactics and formations to accommodate him better, it has to come from him.

 

[Mad Winger]

I often see people comparing Kagawa to other attacking midfielders who perform well on the wing, and use this as an argument against Kagawa. I think it's important for these people to understand that Kagawa started his career as a deeplying central midfielder. He was only moved further up the pitch because his coach in Japan felt that he had too much attacking qualities to just control the game in midfield. I'm pretty damn sure that players like Silva, Mata, Özil etc didn't start their careers as deeplying midfielders. That makes Kagawa a bit different to these players, and it's therefore pointless to expect him to adapt the same way.

Yes, Kagawa plays on the left for Japan, but that's a totally different style. Their fullbacks are extremely attacking-minded, and are expected to have full responsibility over the width. That is why Japan occassionally changes to a 3-4-3 formation. The 3 players who are playing behind the main striker in the 4-2-3-1 formation, have usually been the following: Kagawa, Honda, and Okazaki. That's 2 attacking midfielders who have spent the majortiy of their careers centrally on the field, and a striker whos style has been compared to Michael Owen. With this information in mind, do you think that Japan sounds like a team that plays with wingers? No. Japan's formation is extremely narrow and interchanging. There's no room for wingers.

Using the Japanese national team as an argument for playing Kagawa as a winger is therefore incredibly stupid. Not only because their style is completely different to ours, but also because the opponents Japan face on a regular basis aren't nearly as strong as the opponents we face. And to top it off, Kagawa is actually not that good for Japan. He's good, yes, but compared to his Dortmund spell, he's a joke. That's why Klopp's heart is broken seeing Kagawa play on the wing for us. For Japan, it's no biggie. It can't be helped, given the set of players that they have and the style that they use. But for United, it's a waste.

Does this mean that Kagawa can't be a success on the wing? No. He can definitely become a success. But will he ever become World Class? No. Will he ever become so good that he's irreplaceable? No. Will he play the same important part for us that Silva has played for City? No.

People need to keep that all this in mind. As an AM, Kagawa has the potential to surpass all these flashy AMs(Özil, Mata, Silva, Iniesta etc). That's how good he is. But as a winger, he'll become a good player at the very best. If you're OK with the latter, fine. Play him on the wing. I can stand behind that, because I still think he brings something good to our team, even on the wing. But it's still a very bad call in the long run.

 

[MoneyMay]

He maybe has the potential to surpass Mata and Silva, but he will never ever surpass Iniesta...

 

[Mad Winger]

he will never ever surpass Iniesta...

That's a pretty bold claim, considering that Kagawa is only 24 years old and still very much developing as a player.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I often see people comparing Kagawa to other attacking midfielders who perform well on the wing, and use this as an argument against Kagawa. I think it's important for these people to understand that Kagawa started his career as a deeplying central midfielder. He was only moved further up the pitch because his coach in Japan felt that he had too much attacking qualities to just control the game in midfield. I'm pretty damn sure that players like Silva, Mata, Özil etc didn't start their careers as deeplying midfielders. That makes Kagawa a bit different to these players, and it's therefore pointless to expect him to adapt the same way.

Yes, Kagawa plays on the left for Japan, but that's a totally different style. Their fullbacks are extremely attacking-minded, and are expected to have full responsibility over the width. That is why Japan occassionally changes to a 3-4-3 formation. The 3 players who are playing behind the main striker in the 4-2-3-1 formation, have usually been the following: Kagawa, Honda, and Okazaki. That's 2 attacking midfielders who have spent the majortiy of their careers centrally on the field, and a striker whos style has been compared to Michael Owen. With this information in mind, do you think that Japan sounds like a team that plays with wingers? No. Japan's formation is extremely narrow and interchanging. There's no room for wingers.

Using the Japanese national team as an argument for playing Kagawa as a winger is therefore incredibly stupid. Not only because their style is completely different to ours, but also because the opponents Japan face on a regular basis aren't nearly as strong as the opponents we face. And to top it off, Kagawa is actually not that good for Japan. He's good, yes, but compared to his Dortmund spell, he's a joke. That's why Klopp's heart is broken seeing Kagawa play on the wing for us. For Japan, it's no biggie. It can't be helped, given the set of players that they have and the style that they use. But for United, it's a waste.

Does this mean that Kagawa can't be a success on the wing? No. He can definitely become a success. But will he ever become World Class? No. Will he ever become so good that he's irreplaceable? No. Will he play the same important part for us that Silva has played for City? No.

People need to keep that all this in mind. As an AM, Kagawa has the potential to surpass all these flashy AMs(Özil, Mata, Silva, Iniesta etc). That's how good he is. But as a winger, he'll become a good player at the very best. If you're OK with the latter, fine. Play him on the wing. I can stand behind that, because I still think he brings something good to our team, even on the wing. But it's still a very bad call in the long run.

The Dortmund version of Kagawa was very good on the ball, an excellent reader of the game, a sharp passer of the ball, a mobile player who frequently made himself available in wide positions and created from there - and he could score a goal or two. Now, if this version of the player can only shine for us in one position, namely that of a No 10/CAM, I find that surprising to say the least. Why a player with these qualities would be severely hampered playing in a Silva style free role to the left I simply cannot grasp. That he would be even better in the middle - yes, by all means, I can see that. But that the contrast should be as great as you suggest? I find that very odd.

Remember, we're not talking about sticking him on the wing in a traditional sense. It's obvious that a player like him would be wasted as a left sided version of Antonio Valencia. But that has never been an option. Within our current model he could play a Silva style role - I maintain this. And you're saying he can only ever be, let's say adequate in such a role? Again, I find this very odd.

Lastly, if it is indeed - as I suspect - our lack of movement which makes him look so different from the Dortmund version, this can only be remedied in one way right here and now: He must impose himself on the match to a far greater degree. And if he simply cannot do this - well, then he is not the man for us at the moment. He's too limited then, too dependent on others around him to suit out present game. I can't quite believe this either, though. He has too much obvious quality in terms of skills, passing, footballing intelligence, you name it for that to be likely. He isn't exceptionally slow or immobile either - it's not like he needs to stay within three square feet, like a latter day Valderrama, just orchestrating everything that files past him. In short, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to adjust his game to be more, well, imposing whenever the movement around him isn't great.

 

[MoneyMay]

That's a pretty bold claim, considering that Kagawa is only 24 years old and still very much developing as a player.

Nah, I don't think it's bold at all. Once Kagawa dominates a team in a CL final, while not being at full fitness, then I may have more hope for him in this comparison. Comparing him to Iniesta is premature.

 

[Mad Winger]

Nah, I don't think it's bold at all. Once Kagawa dominates a team in a CL final, while not being at full fitness, then I may have more hope for him in this comparison. Comparing him to Iniesta is premature.

I'm not saying that he's on Iniesta's level now.

I'm saying that he can be, in the future. Big difference.

 

[BD]

I'm not saying that he's on Iniesta's level now.

I'm saying that he can be, in the future. Big difference.

He cant. Sorry, but he will never make it to the level of Iniesta. I'd be happy if he makes it to David Silvas level while at United, or even his as good as his Dortmund days.

 

[acnumber9]

We definitely need a more attack minded left back to get a performance from Kagawa. The one we have never crosses the halfway line.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not saying that he's on Iniesta's level now.

I'm saying that he can be, in the future. Big difference.

Not going to happen. We have nobody at iniesta's level. Kagawa's wing get there. He doesn't have anywhere near the same ability or potential.

 

[Sultan]

Never mind Iniesta or anywhere near being world class at the moment he's not even playing at Adnan's level.

 

[pocco]

I'm not saying that he's on Iniesta's level now.

I'm saying that he can be, in the future. Big difference.

This is exactly why I say your opinion is worth nothing when it comes to Kagawa. For someone that adores him and makes out they've studied his game from day one, you really know feck all about him.

 

[hungrywing]

...Lastly, if it is indeed - as I suspect - our lack of movement which makes him look so different from the Dortmund version, this can only be remedied in one way right here and now: He must impose himself on the match to a far greater degree. And if he simply cannot do this - well, then he is not the man for us at the moment. He's too limited then, too dependent on others around him to suit out present game. I can't quite believe this either, though. He has too much obvious quality in terms of skills, passing, footballing intelligence, you name it for that to be likely. He isn't exceptionally slow or immobile either - it's not like he needs to stay within three square feet, like a latter day Valderrama, just orchestrating everything that files past him. In short, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to adjust his game to be more, well, imposing whenever the movement around him isn't great.

Spot on first two thirds of the post. Not so much this last part. For one, another remedy is quite simply - as you point out - better movement from the other players. I think we had a couple threads pointing this out.

Second, he's Japanese. This is a people who will quite convincingly tell you they love you to your face even if they want to rip your guts out. Quite literally. It's virtually impossible to explain to foreigners.

This is not a knock on the Japanese people. It's just a part of their culture. In the strictest and most old-fashioned of senses, to say something as seemingly innocuous such as "I think we need to do better as a team" - thereby implying deficiencies in those other than yourself - is dishonorable to the point of seppuku.

Point being that - no racism - culturally it's very hard for someone of Japanese descent to 'impose' oneself on anything, let alone football. You can have some genius Japanese scientist visit roomful of toddlers with a cadre of Play-Doh castles; (s)he'll go around the room saying how amazing their work is and how utterly worthless her/his life has been. And not in a playful way. They'll actually half mean it. Again, virtually impossible to explain to foreigners. You think, oh sure I can get that. But you really don't.

It was one of the reasons I was slightly apprehensive of his signing. The record will show I admire him to pieces, but he'll very likely never discard that "oh wow RedCafe is in love with such wonderful humble interviews I just love him" aspect of his personality.

Not saying it's impossible, but there are huge huge cultural barriers in place between him being comfortable 'imposing' himself on the game and being the Dortmund type facilitator, making others shine.

Ultimate point being, I think his performance/role at Dortmund had a lot to do with his psychological upbringing.

 

[Brwned]

Does this mean that Kagawa can't be a success on the wing? No. He can definitely become a success. But will he ever become World Class? No. Will he ever become so good that he's irreplaceable? No. Will he play the same important part for us that Silva has played for City? No.

People need to keep that all this in mind.

Do you honestly consider yourself some kind of expert on Kagawa?

 

[Sphaero]

I often see people comparing Kagawa to other attacking midfielders who perform well on the wing, and use this as an argument against Kagawa. I think it's important for these people to understand that Kagawa started his career as a deeplying central midfielder. He was only moved further up the pitch because his coach in Japan felt that he had too much attacking qualities to just control the game in midfield. I'm pretty damn sure that players like Silva, Mata, Özil etc didn't start their careers as deeplying midfielders. That makes Kagawa a bit different to these players, and it's therefore pointless to expect him to adapt the same way.

OK. Now you are really grasping at straws here. First of all, when was this time of him playing as a deeplying central midfielder? I watched most of his games for Osaka in his two last years there and he played there as an offensive minded midfielder pretty much all the time. So it has to be before that time. Are we talking about his youth career then? Because that should not be taken as a big indicator. There are a lot of players, who played in there youth complete different positions before settling down on their ultimative position. Fullbacks, who started out as wingers and strikers and vice versa. Centerbacks, who were formerly Central Midfielder. If he was played deeper origninally then moving him up the pitch was only the logical consequence because his skill set simply suits the role of an offensive midfielder.

I do agree about the comments about the Japanese national team (I brought up several of them myself before). The simple argument that he plays on the left for Japan does not hold much ground.

I said it before: Kagawa´s problem is less purely positional, but more systematical and based on play style. I could see several teams, where he would contribute more coming from the left. He would probably still be better in the hole, but he would be a bigger help. It is United´s focus on width and the resulting lesser movement in the center that causes Kagawa´s struggles.

Lastly, if it is indeed - as I suspect - our lack of movement which makes him look so different from the Dortmund version, this can only be remedied in one way right here and now: He must impose himself on the match to a far greater degree. And if he simply cannot do this - well, then he is not the man for us at the moment. He's too limited then, too dependent on others around him to suit out present game. I can't quite believe this either, though. He has too much obvious quality in terms of skills, passing, footballing intelligence, you name it for that to be likely. He isn't exceptionally slow or immobile either - it's not like he needs to stay within three square feet, like a latter day Valderrama, just orchestrating everything that files past him. In short, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to adjust his game to be more, well, imposing whenever the movement around him isn't great.

I do agree that Kagawa needs to become more confident and take more risks. He also needs to increase his presence when he is on the pitch.

However, Kagawa alone won´t be able to give United a way higher fluidity in the central parts of the offense. Against decent and especially strong defensive formations which are build to tighten up places, the only way I see to create a lot of movement is well collective off the ball movement from the whole offensive. Throwing in one player who thrives on movement won´t solve that alone.

A complete other question is, if Moyes even intends to move United towards a high movement based system or wants to stick with the wider approach of a 4-4-2. Right now the latter is actually more likely and there is actually not that much wrong with it. It is not like that extreme fluid and narrow formations are the only way to play entertaining and successful football. If played correctly a winger system does have its advantages.

We can talk all day about Kagawa being more suited for one system. At the end of the day, United won´t just change their style to make it easier for one single player, alone for the fact that a real system change usually takes quite some time and carries risks. Moyes is right now not in the position to make a lot of experiments either.

So, Kagawa needs to show that he can contribute to the team in the present and that there is actually a development in him. I said it at the very start of Kagawa´s career. He needs to broaden his skill set and adapt to the system the manager intends to use, not the other way around. Otherwise his only alternative is moving on towards a different team, which suits him more. Be it Dortmund or other teams with similar approaches of the game.

 

[kouroux]

OK. Now you are really grasping at straws here. First of all, when was this time of him playing as a deeplying central midfielder? I watched most of his games for Osaka in his two last years there and he played there as an offensive minded midfielder pretty much all the time. So it has to be before that time. Are we talking about his youth career then? Because that should not be taken as a big indicator. There are a lot of players, who played in there youth complete different positions before settling down on their ultimative position. Fullbacks, who started out as wingers and strikers and vice versa. Centerbacks, who were formerly Central Midfielder. If he was played deeper origninally then moving him up the pitch was only the logical consequence because his skill set simply suits the role of an offensive midfielder.

I do agree about the comments about the Japanese national team (I brought up several of them myself before). The simple argument that he plays on the left for Japan does not hold much ground.

I said it before: Kagawa´s problem is less purely positional, but more systematical and based on play style. I could see several teams, where he would contribute more coming from the left. He would probably still be better in the hole, but he would be a bigger help. It is United´s focus on width and the resulting lesser movement in the center that causes Kagawa´s struggles.



I do agree that Kagawa needs to become more confident and take more risks. He also needs to increase his presence when he is on the pitch.

However, Kagawa alone won´t be able to give United a way higher fluidity in the central parts of the offense. Against decent and especially strong defensive formations which are build to tighten up places, the only way I see to create a lot of movement is well collective off the ball movement from the whole offensive. Throwing in one player who thrives on movement won´t solve that alone.

A complete other question is, if Moyes even intends to move United towards a high movement based system or wants to stick with the wider approach of a 4-4-2. Right now the latter is actually more likely and there is actually not that much wrong with it. It is not like that extreme fluid and narrow formations are the only way to play entertaining and successful football. If played correctly a winger system does have its advantages.

We can talk all day about Kagawa being more suited for one system. At the end of the day, United won´t just change their style to make it easier for one single player, alone for the fact that a real system change usually takes quite some time and carries risks. Moyes is right now not in the position to make a lot of experiments either.

So, Kagawa needs to show that he can contribute to the team in the present and that there is actually a development in him. I said it at the very start of Kagawa´s career. He needs to broaden his skill set and adapt to the system the manager intends to use, not the other way around. Otherwise his only alternative is moving on towards a different team, which suits him more. Be it Dortmund or other teams with similar approaches of the game.

Absolutely spot on, very well put.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Spot on first two thirds of the post. Not so much this last part. For one, another remedy is quite simply - as you point out - better movement from the other players. I think we had a couple threads pointing this out.

Second, he's Japanese. This is a people who will quite convincingly tell you they love you to your face even if they want to rip your guts out. Quite literally. It's virtually impossible to explain to foreigners.

This is not a knock on the Japanese people. It's just a part of their culture. In the strictest and most old-fashioned of senses, to say something as seemingly innocuous such as "I think we need to do better as a team" - thereby implying deficiencies in those other than yourself - is dishonorable to the point of seppuku.

Point being that - no racism - culturally it's very hard for someone of Japanese descent to 'impose' oneself on anything, let alone football. You can have some genius Japanese scientist visit roomful of toddlers with a cadre of Play-Doh castles; (s)he'll go around the room saying how amazing their work is and how utterly worthless her/his life has been. And not in a playful way. They'll actually half mean it. Again, virtually impossible to explain to foreigners. You think, oh sure I can get that. But you really don't.

It was one of the reasons I was slightly apprehensive of his signing. The record will show I admire him to pieces, but he'll very likely never discard that "oh wow RedCafe is in love with such wonderful humble interviews I just love him" aspect of his personality.

Not saying it's impossible, but there are huge huge cultural barriers in place between him being comfortable 'imposing' himself on the game and being the Dortmund type facilitator, making others shine.

Ultimate point being, I think his performance/role at Dortmund had a lot to do with his psychological upbringing.

That's certainly an interesting take on it - and I'll gladly admit I have never thought about it from this perspective.

Still, let's say this is true - that imposing himself is something he is reluctant or even unwilling to do: Surely a man with such a code would also be willing to do whatever is best for the team? So, if a Klopp or a Moyes tells him to alter his approach and become more imposing - he'll try to do just this?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I said it at the very start of Kagawa´s career. He needs to broaden his skill set and adapt to the system the manager intends to use, not the other way around. Otherwise his only alternative is moving on towards a different team, which suits him more. Be it Dortmund or other teams with similar approaches of the game.

That's the core of the matter - yes. However, this isn't black and white: It's not a matter of him either transforming himself into a great player in a perfectly stagnant system with zero movement OR us transforming into Dortmund 2.0, in which case he wouldn't have to change his approach at all: It's clear as day that we need better movement - irrespective of the Kagawa situation. So, us starting to play better, which will naturally involve more speed and more movement, will help Kagawa - and facilitate his transformation, to put it overly dramatically.

 

[Sixpence]

He needs a rocket up his arse. Far too happy just wondering around the place popping 5 yard ineffective little passes around and doing it in a manor that is pleasing on the eye. He needs to show way more urgency on the ball. He's currently playing at testimonial pace.

 

[Mad Winger]

OK. Now you are really grasping at straws here. First of all, when was this time of him playing as a deeplying central midfielder? I watched most of his games for Osaka in his two last years there and he played there as an offensive minded midfielder pretty much all the time.

Kagawa started his professional career at 17(in 2006). So that means that there are 2 full years you didn't see Kagawa play for Cerezo.

Levir Culpi:
"At the start, he was a defensive midfielder. But I saw that with all that movement, I had to give him a more free role where he could express himself."

Culpi didn't become the coach before 2007, so that means that Kagawa at the very least spent his entire youth career and his first professional year as a deeplying midfielder. So, my point still stands. Kagawa has a different background and skillset than many of players he's being compared to. It's therefore pointless to expect him to adapt to the wing as easily as the other players. It's not his position. It doesn't come nearly as natural to him. He's able to do fairly well(with the occassional very good performance) because he's a skilled player. But it's pointless to expect him to ever become nearly as good on the wing as he's behind the striker.

So it all boils down to the same question: are we OK with Kagawa not reaching his full potential? Should we choose a "good winger" over a "brilliant AM" in order to keep Rooney and RVP happy, even if our attacking play currently is dire?

 

[Walrus]

This isnt meant to be a defence of Kagawa as I dont think he has been good enough this season, but different players have different levels of versatility. Just because Rooney can play wide left and still influence the game even though it isnt his strongest position, doesnt mean every other AM/ST can do so as well. Rooney's versatility is well documented so he is hardly a fair benchmark to be used for judging other players who are played out of position.

That said, Kagawa needs to improve, as does Nani. We were craving them both to be given games, now they are getting some minutes on the pitch and whilst I would still say they are performing better than Young and perhaps Valencia (although he now seems to be getting some form back) the fact that Januzaj has gotten so much gametime is testiment not just to the lads potential, but how poor our regular wide men have been so far.

 

[talking robot]

I wonder if he wouldn't contribute more from central midfield alongside Carrick than on the wing. If Rooney were to also drop back on occasion, I don't think we would be too light-weight in the center.

 

[Walrus]

We could line up our midfield as

-----------Carrick----------
----Rooney ----- Kagawa

ie Rooney playing a deeper role than he currently does, but this would allow both him and Kagawa to roam forwards when needed, with Carrick playing a dedicated defensive role moreso than he does currently.