Shinji Kagawa

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Ole240599 said:
What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.
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Are you serious?

Did we not just beat the league leaders, with Kagawa making a decent contribution to that result?

Who would you rather have to take his place?

- Young has been awful and is most likely on the way out
- Nani has been inconsistent and hasn't had a run of games since signing a new contract
- Januzaj I imagine is being 'managed' by Moyes to make sure he isn't overplayed
- Zaha, well no one knows where he is.

If anything, to be completely objective, Kagawa has had a decent run in recent games, and has created numerous chances all of which haven't been put away by our strikers. If half of these had gone in- he'd probably be up there with the highest number of assists in the squad.
 
Thought he looked better, probably more confident...
Evra needs to be given a new contract asap.. Not a better LB in the league at the moment.
Who needs Baines....
 
He looks a class act on the ball with silky skills. However, his class has not transpired onto the pitch. I can only ever remember one game where he influenced the course of the game or result.

I personally think he was purchased to play the similar roles to Nasri, Mata, or Silva.
 
Thought Arsenal's right side was there for the taking today, especially in the first half when Ozil looked lost trying to track back. Evra and Rooney did more on that side than Kagawa. An in form Nani or Januzaj would have gotten far more joy.
 
I was impressed with his performance. He was skillful and tracked back nicely to keep the pressure on them.
 
I thought he played well but it was the right move to sub him when Arsenal were coming back into the game more in the 2nd half. I think he would work better on the left wing with a player like baines behind him, a player that creates so much from left back. That is not to take anything away from Evra who had a good game but his play in the final third is letting him down this season compared to last (but that is a different debate).

Kagawa's best position and where he looks best on the ball is when he comes into a more central position. His link up play with Rooney in this position is great to see as well. We need more link up play like this in our midfield. Add the technically brilliant Januzaj or Welbeck playing on the left then I think our attacking options would improve. However to play him in a centre position he might have to learn how to play in a midfield two, something that I think he could do.

His pressing high up the pitch is great, there is no reason why he couldn't operate this pressing role in the middle. However if we play him in a midfield pairing he needs a ball winning midfielder playing with him. Fletcher would be great with him and even Fellaini (if he starts to up his game) I wouldn't play Jones with him as Jones doing what he does best requires him to have a good positional player like Carrick next to him. Against lesser teams Carrick and Kagawa could dominate the midfield and then there might not be a call for a ball winning player. In the big games he could still do a job our wide but why not give him a run through the middle, its better than having Rooney play there!
 
Ole240599 said:
What does he bring to the table? At present his form does not warrant a place in the squad never mind in the starting 11. The ideal scenario would be at Dortmund don't qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League and we use him as leverage to get one of their midfielders. He is just not suited to the EPL.
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And then you read posts like this...

What does he bring to the squad? Jesus. We should absolutely sell him. I'd love nothing more than to rely on Ashley Young as our alternative to Rooney or Welbeck on the left. This is a player that creates opportunities in almost every match he plays, yet people want to sell him because he, alongside the rest of the team, put in a disciplined performance that won us the game. Madness.

I'm not going to blame him for it and it was such a big game, but Moyes had us set up like an Everton team. We sneaked a goal and clung on for life. This was not the game for great attacking play. I'm baffled that people find a need to dish out major criticism to the players due to yesterday.

Like I said, and I'm not even blaming him for it, the biggest worry is that our football was negative and minnow-like and it was yet another game in that we're seeing no kind of vision, attractive style of play or modernity in the team. I've accepted it now, but this is what Moyes is, so expect a lot more of the same from our wide men in these big matches.
 
Defended very well. The problem is that he didn't have the balls (very rightly so) to leave Evra and come in field enough to influence the game, so he was permanently marooned to the wing. Evra was always going to be the weak link defensively and Shinji had to stay there.
 
kps88 said:
Thought Arsenal's right side was there for the taking today, especially in the first half when Ozil looked lost trying to track back. Evra and Rooney did more on that side than Kagawa. An in form Nani or Januzaj would have gotten far more joy.
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You are not being particularly positive while acknowledging he brought one of the things Arsenal lacked yesterday. Their fancy Ozils and Cazorlas were utter rubbish at helping out, and it showed. Kagawa and Valencia didn't set the world alight, but turned in a solid team performance. That's what won the game yesterday: the collective.
 
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
 
KM said:
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
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He didn't, very mediocre I thought. Maybe people see what they want to with Kagawa cause they're so desperate to see him succeed.
 
KM said:
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
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He wasnt anything great going front, was his usual keeping things simple and moving around style. Helped evra a lot defensively though.

I just wish he'd show more trust and confidence in his own ability and try to change the course of the game himself. Doesnt attempt to run at and beat defenders enough for a player of his quality. Guess he needs more time to move away from the Dortmund system and adapt to our own.
 
I don't think Kagawa will ever cement his place properly on the left for us. Moyes' dilemma is obvious, he clearly rates Kagawa but not enough to displace Rooney. It's clear as day light where his best position is, even Wenger said so!
 
KM said:
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
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Me too. Said after the game that he worked hard defensively but offered next to nothing going forward.
 
Carl said:
Me too. Said after the game that he worked hard defensively but offered next to nothing going forward.
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The whole team offered little going forward though we created very little but defended very well and that is what won us the game. He worked hard in his role today and I hope he keeps getting his chance is the team, especially if he was tried in midfield.
 
KM said:
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
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Cina said:
He didn't, very mediocre I thought. Maybe people see what they want to with Kagawa cause they're so desperate to see him succeed.
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I thought I was reading about a different game until these two comments.

He was our least potent attacking player; on the area of the pitch that was defensively exposed the most.
 
gormless said:
I was only able to watch the highlights on MOTD, but saw Kagawa get hammered in the match day thread. He's been described as "exceptional" in a newspaper this morning though and given an 8/10 rating.
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He wasn't exceptional, but he wasn't half as bad as some on here claim.
 
Absolute Fruit Cake said:
I personally would be sad, but not averse to selling him off, same feeling I had when we sold Berbatov off. Brilliant player for a wrong team. He would slotted in perfectly in Arsenal's team. He is being played out of position and so were Smalling, Jones and to an extent Rooney. He needs to adapt. We've always liked playing games with proper wide players. He is never going to get a proper No.10 role here on regular basis, so what are the option available? You make the call.
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I don't see it as a Berbatov type situation at all. He's not a luxury player, we've been able to play him out of position and still get good performances. In my opinion (as I stated above), those who look at yesterday's performance and say he's not worth his place in the team are either clueless or exaggerating to try and make a point — namely that he hasn't lived up to expectations. I think that, whether or not he ever reaches that 'world class' category that people expected of him, he's a very good player, one of our most technically able players and one of our best passers.
 
finneh said:
I thought I was reading about a different game until these two comments.

He was our least potent attacking player; on the area of the pitch that was defensively exposed the most.
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Sagna whipped in one dangerous ball while Kagawa was on the pitch, but carry on.
 
He contributed to a team performance which was yesterday's win all about. All our other attacking players didnt create much. Our main priority was to stop Arsenal play their game (they're in top form right now) and prevent them from creating chances. And that is what our team did. No one stood out really except for our defenders and everyone was part of a collective team game plan which worked out.
 
KM said:
Looks like I'm in the minority of people who think he didn't played that well at all.
I can see what Moyes is trying to with the left flank though.
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I think the difference in appreciation stems from some of us not expecting sparks to fly with him on the left, and only demanding a committed performance from a player played out of position. Add to that the lack of confidence he is displaying (understandable when asked to do what he is not best at) and you will get what is seemingly glossing over an average performance. That's what it was, average, but dutiful, which is more than can be said about the Arse counterparts everyone keeps fa.pping about. The collective effort won the game, not individual brilliance, even Fellaini was an effective contributor in his also average cameo.

I see what Moyes is trying to do in fitting them all together, but don't think it's the way forward. Would like him being given a run as #10 and go for broke over whether he has a future or not, he doesn't as a left winger.
 
Escobar said:
He contributed to a team performance which was yesterday's win all about. All our other attacking players didnt create much. Our main priority was to stop Arsenal play their game (they're in top form right now) and prevent them from creating chances. And that is what our team did. No one stood out really except for our defenders and everyone was part of a collective team game plan which worked out.
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My takeaway from yesterday, other than Jones being immense and Rooney running himself into the ground, is that Moyes can get that out of our team. Big, nah, huge step forward for him as SAFs successor.
 
Kagawa just can't win on the left wing, can he?

A winger in a 4-4-2 formation needs to be pacy, aggressive, good at taking on players, individualistic, and partly good at defending. None of these qualities describe Kagawa as a player, yet people seem to expect him to do all this. Why? Neither Fergie nor Moyes seem to view Kagawa like this. They want him to be a "wide playmaker" more than anything. But for him to be just that, the team must be willing(and able) to attack. Last season, we were able to do just that. That's why Kagawa did fairly well, even out of position. But these days, we really suck at attacking. Thus Kagawa's strengths are isolated, only to appear occasionally(vs Sociedad and 1st half vs West Brom).

People can compliment us for outplaying Arsenal in the sense that Arsenal didn't manage to create anything. But let's no kid ourselves: we were horrible going forward as well. Kagawa was not any worse than Valencia, Rooney or RVP.

Yesterday's performance was pretty far from being Kagawa's best performance for us(I'd give him a 6). But his defensive display looked better than ever. I'm not too excited about this, but if it awards him more playtime, then I guess it's for the better. We live in a retarded universe when you need to perform well in position A in order to get to play in position B. I will forever be against this way of thinking, no matter who's playing in the position discussed. Team > Individual players and their happiness.
 
antohan said:
Would like him being given a run as #10 and go for broke over whether he has a future or not, he doesn't as a left winger.
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This has been my default position but it would be madness to do that at this point in time the way Rooney is playing. It is just a question of waiting for an opportunity to arise, either because Rooney's form dips or because one of Rooney or RVP gets injured creating a space in the middle. Probably the latter, given it is hard to see Rooney being dropped for poor form after what happened over the summer.

I actually hope you are wrong about him not having a future as a left winger / left-sided attacking player, because I think that is his only chance of making it for us, unless he can wait long enough that Rooney leaves. Even if he did get a chance in the middle, say because RVP got injured and Rooney played furthest forward, allowing Kagawa to come inside. Say he got a run of games there, say 10. How good would he have to be to prevent everything going back to how it is now as soon as everyone was fit again? I just cant see it happening to be honest.
 
antohan said:
I think the difference in appreciation stems from some of us not expecting sparks to fly with him on the left, and only demanding a committed performance from a player played out of position. Add to that the lack of confidence he is displaying (understandable when asked to do what he is not best at) and you will get what is seemingly glossing over an average performance. That's what it was, average, but dutiful, which is more than can be said about the Arse counterparts everyone keeps fa.pping about. The collective effort won the game, not individual brilliance, even Fellaini was an effective contributor in his also average cameo.

I see what Moyes is trying to do in fitting them all together, but don't think it's the way forward. Would like him being given a run as #10 and go for broke over whether he has a future or not, he doesn't as a left winger.
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In place of who though?

It'd be utter madness to drop/accomodate Rooney or RVP in order to get Shinji in the side. Also I'm not sure why he couldn't perform at the left hand side. Adnan whose best position is also Shinji's best position has shown that he's equally effective on the left.
 
He was decent, he will always be a square peg in a round whole out on the left. If there any good left wing options out there I would say we cash on Kagawa and get a proper winger.
 
KM said:
In place of who though?

It'd be utter madness to drop/accomodate Rooney or RVP in order to get Shinji in the side. Also I'm not sure why he couldn't perform at the left hand side. Adnan whose best position is also Shinji's best position has shown that he's equally effective on the left.
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RvP is 30, Kagawa is 24. RvP certainly is the present but not the future, it's bad management not to contemplate that. With the number of games in a season there sure is room for Kagawa to get a run and stake his claim for that future. It actually boils down to a choice of games for Kagawa or Hernández TBH, which is painful, but realistic.

Don't get this persistence on painting Januzaj as a #10. He's a nailed on future world class winger for either flank, why insist on him being played elsewhere when it is the wings we need that for?
 
antohan said:
RvP is 30, Kagawa is 24. RvP certainly is the present but not the future, it's bad management not to contemplate that. With the number of games in a season there sure is room for Kagawa to get a run and stake his claim for that future. It actually boils down to a choice of games for Kagawa or Hernández TBH, which is painful, but realistic.

Don't get this persistence on painting Januzaj as a #10. He's a nailed on future world class winger for either flank, why insist on him being played elsewhere when it is the wings we need that for?
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30 is not too old. He can still go on for another couple of years at the very least.

Januzaj is a number 10. That's his best position and Moyes seems to agree as well.
 
JaffyJoe said:
He was decent, he will always be a square peg in a round whole out on the left. If there any good left wing options out there I would say we cash on Kagawa and get a proper winger.
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He doesn't stick to the left though. He drifts and that is what we need. He creates space for Evra on the left to cross it and he gives us an extra body in the middle.
 
antohan said:
RvP is 30, Kagawa is 24. RvP certainly is the present but not the future, it's bad management not to contemplate that. With the number of games in a season there sure is room for Kagawa to get a run and stake his claim for that future. It actually boils down to a choice of games for Kagawa or Hernández TBH, which is painful, but realistic.

Don't get this persistence on painting Januzaj as a #10. He's a nailed on future world class winger for either flank, why insist on him being played elsewhere when it is the wings we need that for?
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I thought I was the only one. I have not seen much from him that indicates he would thrive in the center. He's more of a Ronaldo than a Messi to me.
 
SirFergie said:
He doesn't stick to the left though. He drifts and that is what we need. He creates space for Evra on the left to cross it and he gives us an extra body in the middle.
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I think we need more width personally, when everyone gets into centre things just get too congested. We need a player who is going to take on his man and beat him and get a quality ball in. If we want anymore contribution in the centre it should be coming from the midfield imo.
 
akash02 said:
30 is not too old. He can still go on for another couple of years at the very least.
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That's pretty much what I meant by him being the present but not the future. If our manager is not thinking in at least three, if not five, year cycles when it comes to personnel then we are fecked TBH.

Januzaj is a number 10. That's his best position and Moyes seems to agree as well.
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An 18-year-old's role isn't set in stone, you just have attributes to shape into what is required. Januzaj right now is and should remain a winger. Sure, he has the potential to be a #10 if needs be and Moyes should contemplate that, but right now it isn't something worth bothering with at all.
 
a player as talented as Kagawa can play left or centrally

his most effective position is central attacking midfield obviously but there is more scope against weaker teams for him to play on the left and to tuck in when we are attacking and get more involved....this leaves more space for Evra which can cut teams open

he did it well yesterday at times but the downside to this is that Sagna starting getting lots of space down the left

There's no way we should move Rooney to accomodate Kagawa - with hindsight I think Fergie made mistakes trying to play him on the left....

Kagawa is a very talented player but he needs to accept a squad role I think
 
antohan said:
RvP is 30, Kagawa is 24. RvP certainly is the present but not the future, it's bad management not to contemplate that. With the number of games in a season there sure is room for Kagawa to get a run and stake his claim for that future. It actually boils down to a choice of games for Kagawa or Hernández TBH, which is painful, but realistic.

Don't get this persistence on painting Januzaj as a #10. He's a nailed on future world class winger for either flank, why insist on him being played elsewhere when it is the wings we need that for?
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Even if that is the case I'm not sure I would choose Kagawa over Hernandez. I dont see why he can get a few games next to Carrick behind Rooney, if Giggs can play there why cant Kagawa.
 
Timdbro said:
I don't see it as a Berbatov type situation at all. He's not a luxury player, we've been able to play him out of position and still get good performances. In my opinion (as I stated above), those who look at yesterday's performance and say he's not worth his place in the team are either clueless or exaggerating to try and make a point — namely that he hasn't lived up to expectations. I think that, whether or not he ever reaches that 'world class' category that people expected of him, he's a very good player, one of our most technically able players and one of our best passers.
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I'm not saying he is worthless, but we don't need a player play out of position to get that output. It just makes him unhappy. We might as well get a proper wide player who is happy to be there. If you cannot guarantee him his preferred position, at least let him leave so he can make a happy and good career elsewhere. Why do we want to insist on retaining a player and making him unhappy, I really don't know.

The only option I can think of is to use Rooney/RvP in crunch matches and Kagawa/Chicharito in other matches. Kind of rotation/resting cycle. At best a compromise, that may end up pissing more players and pleasing none.
 
antohan said:
That's pretty much what I meant by him being the present but not the future. If our manager is not thinking in at least three, if not five, year cycles when it comes to personnel then we are fecked TBH.



An 18-year-old's role isn't set in stone, you just have attributes to shape into what is required. Januzaj right now is and should remain a winger. Sure, he has the potential to be a #10 if needs be and Moyes should contemplate that, but right now it isn't something worth bothering with at all.
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Have you considered that Moyes does not think Kagawa is the solution? Maybe Moyes is content to play RVP and Rooney as it is and when one of the is on the downward slide Januzaj gets the no 10 role. A much as people like to convince themself otherwise, Kagawa hasn't done anything to displace either Rooney or RVP. The only reason he's even good enough to start for us is that Moyes is taking it easy on the kid. On form Kagawa shouldn't have started at all yesterday

Right now he's a winger and that's where he will get most of his football but as he grows older he'll eventually play as an AM. No doubt about that in mind. He's looked magical for the reserves when he has the free role in the middle.
 
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