Shinji Kagawa

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Brightonian said:
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Brightonian - Yeah I agree with virtually all of that, you're analysis of Nasri/Silva is exactly the same opinion that I had. It's why getting a wide player like Navas was so important for them this season.

I think that the general issue of constricting the space that happened with Nasri/Silva has the potential to still happen. In addition to those two I think that Chelsea have had the same issue at times, and it is one reason Mata has looked worse with Oscar playing centrally. Point two is spot on though, and if we can retain some sort of directness then that will alleviate the issue somewhat. The trouble with that is that when you play narrow the tempo naturally drops and you start playing shorter passes.

In fact I think this could be an important point. When we play well the reason the direct, quick play that you talk about is possible is because we have that width out wide. Its been a trait of United going back to Giggs, Kanchelskis, Ronaldo, Nani, Valencia. Basically, the formation and set up does impact the style of play, City played slow and methodical because they were packed with central players, we play quickly because we stretch the pitch and have space out wide. If we change our system and become more like City under Mancini, then despite having different players we could fall into the same pitfalls due to the system. So effectively my concern is with the system, not the players.

So IMO that brings us back to needed an example of this system actually working, and linked to that the problems I have with your Xavi/Iniesta example - I agree its an example of playing in confined spaces working well, but its also not a great example in terms of Rooney/Kagawa for a few reasons. 1) Different positions - there is far more space playing in central midfield than in the number 10 attacking midfield position. In the latter role Rooney/Kagawa will regularly be dealing with a press from midfield and defence, where Xavi just has a press in the midfield. We know all this though, the closer you get to the opposition goal the harder it is to retain possession. 2) The actual role of the players - Xavi and Iniesta have the role of ticking play over and keeping possession when they play in centre mid. Playing close together doesn't hurt that and it actually benefits them as it allows them to keep the ball with short passes. For Rooney and Kagawa they primarily need to create chances and score goals, which I don't think is at all helped by confining the space. The point here is that Xavi/Iniesta look good playing close together because it helps them do what they're supposed to be doing, but it doesn't necessarily apply in the same way to Rooney/Kagawa (it might do, but we need a different example) 3) The ability of Xavi/Iniesta - I don't think there has literally been two footballers who have ever been as good playing in small spaces as these two, they're just the perfect players to play in a confined space. So that being said, the fact they manage to do it so effectively doesn't mean Kagawa/Rooney will be able to. I could imagine Rooney especially struggling with that style of play. Probably even more than Nasri.

At the moment I'm on the fence about what you're saying and the reason is that I haven't seen the system work (that I can recall), whereas I saw it look awful so much for City and other teams.
 
Amazing highlight. Two? touches out of 55 that didn't create something positive in an entire match. With the ball at his feet he is up there with the very best number 10's in the world. Defensively as well but he doesn't have half the touches the other world-class AM's do in an average game, so he just has half the chances to be creative as well.
 
You do wonder what sort of football United would be playing if him and Rooney get an extended run of games. They seem to understand each other very well.
 
Fantastic last night and his presence seemed to coincide with improved passing in the final third

Constantly found space in the hole and some delightful touches - loved the dink foir the Smalling goal

Leverkusen couldn't cope and Shinji won loads of free kicks
 
When Fergie signed him, I and many were saying he is going to be massive for us in Europe. Usually we are on the other end of those little scoop passes in Europe but it's good to have someone doing it for us. Really showed how good he can be when in the right position.

As good as he played, I think he can do a lot better, it was easy for him at times so that's a real positive.
 
Said it before but kagawa is a natural No.10 and plays the position perfectly - not the second striker role that Rooney plays. Now, im not saying kagawa is better than Rooney but he is more natural in that position for the way we need to play. Our tempo and movement was significantly better last night.

no idea how we solve the conundrum, but its simple, he has to play on Sunday.....in the no.10 position
 
LonelyFire said:
Said it before but kagawa is a natural No.10 and plays the position perfectly - not the second striker role that Rooney plays. Now, im not saying kagawa is better than Rooney but he is more natural in that position for the way we need to play. Our tempo and movement was significantly better last night.

no idea how we solve the conundrum, but its simple, he has to play on Sunday.....in the no.10 position
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I agree, and I don't understand why people get so upset when this is said. They both perform better, as well as the team, when Kagawa plays as a 10 and Rooney as a very free-roaming no.9. Even saying Kagawa is a better no.10 than Rooney is not saying Kagawa is better than Rooney overall.

As far as this match is concerned, even the media are in on it:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/301280/analysis
 
Timdbro said:
I agree, and I don't understand why people get so upset when this is said. They both perform better, as well as the team, when Kagawa plays as a 10 and Rooney as a very free-roaming no.9. Even saying Kagawa is a better no.10 than Rooney is not saying Kagawa is better than Rooney overall.

As far as this match is concerned, even the media are in on it:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/301280/analysis
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Rooneys instinct is to get in the box. Kagawa looks for space - not necessarily a direct run into box. Hr often drops deeper offering a different dimension to the team i.e allowing the wingers to join Rooney and kagawa reinforces midfield. The real difference is he offers variety in that position - Rooney doesn't.

Given our midfield problems, i think its imperative kagawa starts in the no.10. I don't know the answer to playing all 3 at once, i just know our movement is far better with kagawa in that position.
 
LonelyFire said:
Rooneys instinct is to get in the box. Kagawa looks for space - not necessarily a direct run into box. Hr often drops deeper offering a different dimension to the team i.e allowing the wingers to join Rooney and kagawa reinforces midfield. The real difference is he offers variety in that position - Rooney doesn't.

Given our midfield problems, i think its imperative kagawa starts in the no.10. I don't know the answer to playing all 3 at once, i just know our movement is far better with kagawa in that position.
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Again, I agree with most of that, although offering variety is probably something Rooney does do quite well. For me, the problem is that Rooney isn't quite so good at making himself available for a pass when there's no out ball to the wingers from midfield (though again, it's not something he's bad at), but more importantly, when he does get it, he's not nearly as good at playing it out of a tight spot, or picking a clever pass or one-two. I also think that playing as the main striker forces Rooney to stay that little bit further up, and avoid having to drop into midfield to defend all the time like we see when he's playing as a second striker. For me, this position also gets more out of Rooney than as a second striker, not because he doesn't produce as the latter, but just that the former flows more and feels more natural.

The way I see it, in terms of a space on the pitch, Rooney really is world class in the hole, but only as long as there's space there. If he's playing as a second striker, this usually happens when we counter-attack, but not in possession. I think with Kagawa in there pulling people about, getting good possession and drawing fouls etc. it creates more of a space for Rooney to do his thing. Some might argue that having a proper no.9 ahead of him playing on the shoulder creates that space too, which in theory could be true, but I don't think it has worked out that way recently - possibly because our midfielders haven't been good enough to warrant much attention.
 
Timdbro said:
Again, I agree with most of that, although offering variety is probably something Rooney does do quite well. For me, the problem is that Rooney isn't quite so good at making himself available for a pass when there's no out ball to the wingers from midfield (though again, it's not something he's bad at), but more importantly, when he does get it, he's not nearly as good at playing it out of a tight spot, or picking a clever pass or one-two. I also think that playing as the main striker forces Rooney to stay that little bit further up, and avoid having to drop into midfield to defend all the time like we see when he's playing as a second striker. For me, this position also gets more out of Rooney than as a second striker, not because he doesn't produce as the latter, but just that the former flows more and feels more natural.

The way I see it, in terms of a space on the pitch, Rooney really is world class in the hole, but only as long as there's space there. If he's playing as a second striker, this usually happens when we counter-attack, but not in possession. I think with Kagawa in there pulling people about, getting good possession and drawing fouls etc. it creates more of a space for Rooney to do his thing. Some might argue that having a proper no.9 ahead of him playing on the shoulder creates that space too, which in theory could be true, but I don't think it has worked out that way recently - possibly because our midfielders haven't been good enough to warrant much attention.
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A lot would agree with that, and to a certain extent, in the PL its true. I just think in Europe, you need a more "sophisticated" way of playing and that is where Kagawa is perfect.

Rooney has matured into the No.9 role, he understands that position and knows what he needs to do for the team.

Its a real problem for Moyes but a great one. Unfortunately, there will be a casualty...unless he plays the diamond (which he wont do).
 
3 at the back - job done.

------Smalling--Vidic--Evans------
Rafael-------------------------Evra
----------Jones--Carrick-------
-------------Kagawa------------
----------RvP----Rooney---------
 
I hate this conundrum. Absolutely hate it.

Sadly I don't think Kagawa playing regularly in his preferred position will ever happen, and he doesn't do enough on the left to force the issue.
 
marjen said:
I hate this conundrum. Absolutely hate it.

Sadly I don't think Kagawa playing regularly in his preferred position will ever happen, and he doesn't do enough on the left to force the issue.
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Of course it could, RvP and Rooney won't be here forever.

Depends on whether he's willing to wait.
 
LonelyFire said:
A lot would agree with that, and to a certain extent, in the PL its true. I just think in Europe, you need a more "sophisticated" way of playing and that is where Kagawa is perfect.

Rooney has matured into the No.9 role, he understands that position and knows what he needs to do for the team.

Its a real problem for Moyes but a great one. Unfortunately, there will be a casualty...unless he plays the diamond (which he wont do).
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I can certainly see the argument for it, but as I said, I don't think it has been working out that way recently. More often than not, unless we are properly counter-attacking, the opposition's midfield has just dropped back and cut that space off, and I suppose our midfielders haven't done enough from deep to punish that. With Kagawa there combining with our midfield and wingers, maybe it gives the opposition midfield enough to think about, allowing Rooney to run at defenders a bit more often, rather than at midfielders. Again, it's not that Rooney isn't good at that particular important aspect of playing as a no.10, I just think Kagawa is better. Looking at Rooney's assists yesterday, for example, it seems to me they happened when he received the ball in some space fairly high up the pitch (relative to where he receives it as a second striker), and that Kagawa was involved in the build-up leading to that position.
 
Cina said:
Of course it could, RvP and Rooney won't be here forever.

Depends on whether he's willing to wait.
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That's where the "I don't think"-thing comes into play.

He'll have to wait for what, two or three seasons as a makeshift winger, taking him well into his prime bereft of regular football?
 
marjen said:
That's where the "I don't think"-thing comes into play.

He'll have to wait for what, two or three seasons as a makeshift winger, taking him well into his prime bereft of regular football?
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By all accounts, Rooney might be gone in the summer and/or (heaven forbid) RvP's past injuries could come back to haunt him.
 
Cina said:
Of course it could, RvP and Rooney won't be here forever.

Depends on whether he's willing to wait.
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I agree with this, this summer will be quite important in terms of our attacking players I reckon. Either we commit to Rooney for the rest of his peak years, and slot the other options around him, or he leaves and Kagawa gets his big chance.
Of course, RVP won't be around for ever either given that he's 30, but I can't see him leaving within the next couple of years.
 
Surely Kagawa with Jones behind him would be miles better in central midfield than Cleverley? I just don't see why Moyes would not give it a go. Kagawa is afar superior player to Cleverley. People harp on about the lack of sense in playing players out of position but it has worked wonders for Jones.....I'd love if Moyes just gave it a go to see how it worked out.
 
He moves the ball so much quicker at a higher tempo than Rooney in the 10 role who looks to take more touches and over two thirds of the time ends up passing down the right wing. We looked so much more dangerous with Kagawa in there.
 
Swaters16 said:
That's surprising, I wouldn't have picked him as the one who covered the most ground. Although I wasn't watching him that closely.
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Not really, he's always on the move and making himself available, he doesn't really rely on sprints at all so running that much isn't a big problem for him.
 
Ringo 07 said:
People harp on about the lack of sense in playing players out of position but it has worked wonders for Jones......
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Has it been out of position? I don't know where and how much Jones played in his youth days, but weren't half of his games for Blackburn played in midfield? Anyhow, it's not the same an as older player who has played in a certain position for several years.
 
Amir said:
Has it been out of position? I don't know where and how much Jones played in his youth days, but weren't half of his games for Blackburn played in midfield? Anyhow, it's not the same an as older player who has played in a certain position for several years.
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'Central midfield is Shinji's best role', Klopp
 
Ringo 07 said:
Surely Kagawa with Jones behind him would be miles better in central midfield than Cleverley? I just don't see why Moyes would not give it a go. Kagawa is afar superior player to Cleverley. People harp on about the lack of sense in playing players out of position but it has worked wonders for Jones.....I'd love if Moyes just gave it a go to see how it worked out.
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He may be a far superior player to Cleverley but a central midfielder he is not. Hes best as a No:10.
 
With Rooney floating everywhere, couldn't we play him left tucking in, and Kagawa through the middle; or Wayne at the right side with Januzaj at the left? Like:

------RvP
Roo-Shinji-Tony
--Jones-Anyone
----Back 5----
OR

--------RvP
Januzaj-Shinji-Roo

We may loose some power on the wings, and the talent and movement with the ball on the ground would be immense. And Rooney plays everywhere anyway, look at his position with Valencia's first goal... Let us use the fullbacks for width, Rafael or even Fabio at RB, and Evra or Buttner/Fabio at LB.
 
Timdbro said:
I can certainly see the argument for it, but as I said, I don't think it has been working out that way recently. More often than not, unless we are properly counter-attacking, the opposition's midfield has just dropped back and cut that space off, and I suppose our midfielders haven't done enough from deep to punish that. With Kagawa there combining with our midfield and wingers, maybe it gives the opposition midfield enough to think about, allowing Rooney to run at defenders a bit more often, rather than at midfielders. Again, it's not that Rooney isn't good at that particular important aspect of playing as a no.10, I just think Kagawa is better. Looking at Rooney's assists yesterday, for example, it seems to me they happened when he received the ball in some space fairly high up the pitch (relative to where he receives it as a second striker), and that Kagawa was involved in the build-up leading to that position.
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I would argue that Kagawa floating across the final 3rd created this space for Rooney (others would argue Leverkusen done it all themselves!). Although, Valencia and Nani performed very well too. Attacking wise, the 4 were excellent. I just do not think its a coincedence that it happened when Kagawa was deployed centrally.

Moyes needs to be bold. This is Man Utd, performances earn you the shirt...not your name.
 
Probably the best game that Kagawa has had this season, maybe it was because he was returning to his old stomping ground (Germany), he linked up well and played some really intelligent balls to his partners. I can only say that he needs to play more.
 
Ringo 07 said:
Surely Kagawa with Jones behind him would be miles better in central midfield than Cleverley? I just don't see why Moyes would not give it a go. Kagawa is afar superior player to Cleverley. People harp on about the lack of sense in playing players out of position but it has worked wonders for Jones.....I'd love if Moyes just gave it a go to see how it worked out.
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In Europe it could work but in the prem he would be bullied out the game IMO, he is not aggressive enough at present.
 
Kagawa playing as we all knew he could when given a chance in his natural position.

Brings a tear to my eye.
 
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