Shinji Kagawa

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bosnian_red said:
Not sure if we were watching the same game, I thought he was excellent in that half, great usage of the ball and looked threatening, and we looked good going forward.
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I didn't think so at all. His best pass was probably the ball across the six yard box, but he didn't look dangerous other than that. He seemed to want too long on the ball at times and ended up being dispossessed.
 
pocco said:
He was poor again. Misplaced passes, losing possession under pressure, even a first touch which landed about 10 yards away from him. That was not a good performance. The best aspect of his game was probably his defending, which isn't great by any means.
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I thought this too, must be watching a different game, with people calling him "excellent"? Not even close, he was outmuscled nearly all the time and did nothing for me.
 
I thought he was poor too, our standards have dropped dramatically if that's excellent.
 
Moving him out wide was stupid IMO, if he wasn't playing great in the centre he certainly wasn't going to improve on the wing.
 
His performances have been vastly overrated. However we don't play a style which suits even having a number 10. Our midfielders (well those who line up in central midfield) are not ballsy enough to play between the lines and use the number 10 to link up midfield and attack. Only Carrick does that.

He hasn't been playing well but its largely down to the fact that he HAS to drop deeper to get on the ball and he's given the ball far less than fellow attackers such as Valencia...who is our main outlet. What was it..30 crosses in 3 games and the only successful one reached Kagawa outside the box?
 
pocco said:
I think if he was playing great then he would have a) been moved out wide, or b) been subbed. Moyes isn't as fecking stupid as people think.
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Well he moved Welbeck to striker for the second time in 4 days and Kagawa to the wing, and both times we looked worse then how we looked before. Both times we lost control of the match. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if we're putting Giggs and Fellaini in center midfield, they need a 3rd player like Kagawa to help control the game, yet once he came off the game was all over the place. I still think the worst decision of the day was to take off Rafael for whatever reason, but too late now.
 
Fergus' son said:
Moving him out wide was stupid IMO, if he wasn't playing great in the centre he certainly wasn't going to improve on the wing.
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Rooney offered more when he dropped in behind Welbeck with Kagawa out wide. We had a decent spell around that point where we had Everton pinned back. Do you want us to leave a guy in the middle who is offering nothing going forward and who isn't great defensively?
 
pocco said:
Rooney offered more when he dropped in behind Welbeck with Kagawa out wide. We had a decent spell around that point where we had Everton pinned back. Do you want us to leave a guy in the middle who is offering nothing going forward and who isn't great defensively?
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Take him off then, don't shift him out wide where he's almost guaranteed to be just as ineffective.

I would've left him personally, just brought Januzaj on for Welbeck at half time.
 
He'll make a few pretty passes here and there or make a few good touches and everyone will think he's had a good game. He did nothing of consequence towards our forward play IMO and he's yet to prove he can do it in the PL.

Its unbelievable that some people think we should drop RVP to accommodate him.
 
Wasn't having the best to begin with, but shifting him out to the left to switch with Welbeck (who has absolutely shite) made it even more difficult to make a contribution.
 
mlclauhk said:
Wasn't having the best to begin with, but shifting him out to the left to switch with Welbeck (who has absolutely shite) made it even more difficult to make a contribution.
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Welbeck was equally poor to be fair. I think we tried to create quick counters and try to get him in behind. When we didn't manage this he was rightly replaced. I can't complain about any of the subs tonight.
 
For his own career if Moyes is still around next year he should move on as we won't be playing the football that suits him and he has Rooney ahead of him who Moyes would pick even if he had one arm missing.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
So second game in row with him starting in his favorite 10 position and not doing very well from what I gather other wise why would he be taken off at half time?

* Couldn't watch the game, was working.
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He was taken off around 55 mins in, but Welbeck was by far the worst player on the pitch I thought, and having just watched Kagawa's individual highlights, he wasn't anything special but wasn't that bad either. We played better as a whole and looked more in control in the first half though.

edit: Here's the vid ...

 
bosnian_red said:
He was taken off around 55 mins in, but Welbeck was by far the worst player on the pitch I thought, and having just watched Kagawa's individual highlights, he wasn't anything special but wasn't that bad either. We played better as a whole and looked more in control in the first half though.
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But it looks like the excuse of him not playing in his favorite position is slowly wearing off, he even had Giggs behind him today didn't he? Surely people still dont expect us to drop RVP or play Rooney on left so that Kagawa can have the 10 position anymore.


Edit Just watched the first 2 minutes of that video were he seems to have done nothing.
 
pocco said:
Welbeck was equally poor to be fair. I think we tried to create quick counters and try to get him in behind. When we didn't manage this he was rightly replaced. I can't complain about any of the subs tonight.
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Yet again, I agree. But I see someone on another thread saying it was the worst substitutions he had ever seen? Nani and januzaj were both more of a goal threat in the half hour period they played than Kagawa, and Hernandez needed to be thrown in as a last ditch attempt at goal.

We all know what he can do, but he's simply not doing it here. He almost seems like he is timid and afraid of doing something seriously dangerous against the opposition. That chip pass against Leverkusen is the only outstanding piece of work I can remember him doing this season, and that's bad considering how highly a lot of you praise him for doing the simplest of things.
 
I'd put him behind Hernandez on Saturday with Nani and Adan either side. The movement between those three could be at times sensational. Have Jones and Fellaini in behind giving him good support and I think we can grab a win against Newcastle.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
But it looks like the excuse of him not playing in his favorite position is slowly wearing off, he even had Giggs behind him today didn't he? Surely people still dont expect us to drop RVP or play Rooney on left so that Kagawa can have the 10 position anymore.
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He looked decent but the whole team looked a bit disjointed. I think it's more of us having shit midfielders, and not being suited to any attacking midfielder really (Ozil would probably flop at United as well). Put Kagawa at Arsenal and he'd be brilliant IMO, but he just doesn't suit us because of our style (or lack of it). I never really advocated dropping RVP or Rooney really, but I did want to see Kagawa behind Rooney given a chance. He hardly had that chance against Spurs and only had a half today, and while it was okay, it wasn't anything special. He's still a quality player, but he needs movement around him.

I'd play him behind a striker against Newcastle again, but this time have Nani and Januzaj on the wings, so there is actually proper movement around him, rather then the static Valencia and Welbeck.
 
Red Shorts said:
Yet again, I agree. But I see someone on another thread saying it was the worst substitutions he had ever seen? Nani and januzaj were both more of a goal threat in the half hour period they played than Kagawa, and Hernandez needed to be thrown in as a last ditch attempt at goal.

We all know what he can do, but he's simply not doing it here. He almost seems like he is timid and afraid of doing something seriously dangerous against the opposition. That chip pass against Leverkusen is the only outstanding piece of work I can remember him doing this season, and that's bad considering how highly a lot of you praise him for doing the simplest of things.
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I thought the subs lost the game, not because of who went on, but because of who came off. Welbeck obviously needed to be the first one to come off, I think everyone on this forum saw that, yet Moyes didn't and waited until the 80th minute. Rafael was having a great game for me, putting in some great crosses and looking a threat, yet we took him off and put Valencia at right back. Kagawa while not being anything special, was still a 3rd midfielder, and helping us control the game. Everton didn't have many chances at all in the first half, while it was end to end in the second.
It's like going all out attack at the 50th minute, which is way to early to do that. The game was end to end there, and both teams looked as likely to score as the other. It's not like we dominated after the subs. It just made the game uncontrollable and unpredictable. You do that if you're losing or if there's 10 minutes to go. Not at the start of the second half when we're on top anyways.
 
The likes of Nani and Kagawa should never be on the bench IMO as they are amongst our most technical players. Blame the player all you like for his performances but when you see the likes of Young, Clev, Fellaini and Valenica starting over them its baffling. Different players but our bench looks stronger than our lineup and you can see why Klopp is scratching his head. Moyes would play a team of Ji Sung Valencias if he could and its not working out is it? You've got to build a team yes but we are playing awful stuff, its hard to even watch a game at times. At least Kagawa has that ability in him to do something yet he gets played all over the place, no consistency and subbed off loads.
 
I think any player would benefit having more movement around them. That's a tired excuse that is being reeled out for Kagawa only. It's not as if there's no movement either, he just doesn't look overly creative, which is what I think people expect will magically happen.

The Rafael sub was obviously because he was just back from an injury. Valencia wasn't a bad replacement.
 
Claymore said:
The likes of Nani and Kagawa should never be on the bench IMO as they are amongst our most technical players. Blame the player all you like for his performances but when you see the likes of Young, Clev, Fellaini and Valenica starting over them its baffling. Different players but our bench looks stronger than our lineup and you can see why Klopp is scratching his head. Moyes would play a team of Ji Sung Valencias if he could and its not working out is it? You've got to build a team yes but we are playing awful stuff, its hard to even watch a game at times. At least Kagawa has that ability in him to do something yet he gets played all over the place, no consistency and subbed off loads.
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Fellaini is keeping Kagawa and Nani out? Admit it, you just threw that name in there because saying that Januzaj, Rooney and RVP keep them out just doesn't have the same dramatic effect.
 
I thought he was poor last night... not quite as bad as he was against Spurs, but considering we were at home, I'd have expected a lot more. Frankly, if his name began with a V or W this thread would have looked different.
 
Should have stayed at Dortmund franky. This "style" of play we practice is nothing he will ever shine in. Rather buy another 2 metre hulk to lump the ball forward to and let him join a club that actually plays quick and high pressing football with players moving around him.
 
Kagawa is such a tough one, I don't think you can blame it purely on the other players/our style but I also think it's harsh to just blame him as well.

End of the day he himself needs to find a way to influence more from the left, he put in a nice cross one yesterday but that was about it. If he's not going down the line then he needs to find a way to come inside and create.

That said I do think he's hindered by the sheer fact that we have so few people making a run inside. Yesterday neither welbeck or valencia made any attempt to make a diagonal run. You expect it from valencia but for welbeck you'd think that's his key way to attack when wide, but he doesn't do it. So the options aren't there, no one's opening up space with dummy runs or actually giving an option for a cutting pass. We only have nani/januzaj who would do that from a wide area and they rarely play, I'd love the 3 of them to play against Toon so we could see what would happen. I don't think it would make much difference if someone deemed a better version of kagawa came in playing alongside welbeck/valencia as the wide players, if there's no one making the movement then they can'g get the space or have the pass on. I think others are more confident carrying the ball than kagawa is, and that's somewhere he needs to improve.
 
He may have been one of the brighter spots, but that doesnt mean he was that good. I think people have really lowered their standards and exaggerate everything him and Nani are doing lately, he was decent in spells, but had that been a Rooney or RVP people would be saying it was an average performance. His passing and movement are very good but despite being pretty, they are ineffectual in the EPL.
 
bosnian_red said:
Not sure if we were watching the same game, I thought he was excellent in that half, great usage of the ball and looked threatening, and we looked good going forward.
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wow. Easily pleased.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
He'll make a few pretty passes here and there or make a few good touches and everyone will think he's had a good game. He did nothing of consequence towards our forward play IMO and he's yet to prove he can do it in the PL.

Its unbelievable that some people think we should drop RVP to accommodate him.
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Its always nice to see our fans defend a player but in his case hes not done enough to warrant such a staunch defence. His clearly a very talented player but his overall contribution hasnt been good enough.
 
Decotron said:
Its always nice to see our fans defend a player but in his case hes not done enough to warrant such a staunch defence. His clearly a very talented player but his overall contribution hasnt been good enough.
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Yeah, basically. He's being defended on the basis of what he was at Dortmund and the fact he's a different type of player, who plays a style of football the fans want to see. His performances themselves have been pretty underwhelming. Yes, other players have played badly in that time and yes, he's in and out of his favoured position, but you're not handed a shirt at United, you have to earn it. Thus far he hasn't.
 
If Kagawa hasn't earned his right to start, then has Welbeck? How about Young? Giggs? Hell, have Nani or Valencia earned it more? I'm including all these players because, guess what, Kagawa is still playing more on the wing.

Based on last season and this season so far, Kagawa has been better than all the players I mentioned above. That pretty much makes Kagawa our best winger, even though it's pretty far from his natural position(though I'm not gonna start that discussion again).

In the no.10 role(i.e his natural position), he's been very good overall since early March. He was brilliant/very good against Norwich, West Ham, Aston Villa, Sociedad and Leverkusen. He was average against Tottenham, and good against Everton.

Overall, Kagawa has been one of our best(probably the best) wingers from mid 2012 and up until now. He's also been very good in his natural position overall. The bottom line here is this: if Kagawa hasn't earned his spot, nor the right to be "defended", then we're really only left with Rooney. All other AMs and wingers are below par and their position in the starting XI can't be defended then.


( Seeing as I can't reply to anyone due to the personal rules I set before, I'm gonna say it here: I didn't include Januzaj in the list because I still feel it's too soon to draw a conclusion. Let's see after the season is done. The signs are very promising though. )

EDIT:
To prevent a new storm: no, I don't think Kagawa has been very good on the wing overall. I think his overall performance on the wing since he got here has been a weak 7 or a strong 6. Nothing to celebrate. But seeing as he's been our best winger overall during his time here(imo), we can't really throw him out of the starting XI either. Especially when he also can play behind the striker and do really well there.
 
kouroux said:
I don't understand why Moyes put him on the wing in the second whereas he was ok in the first half playing closer to Rooney.
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Second time he's doing that I think, done the same against Spurs. Not sure whether he's trying to accomodate Danny or what but he should stop doing this.
 
Mad Winger said:
If Kagawa hasn't earned his right to start, then has Welbeck? How about Young? Giggs? Hell, have Nani or Valencia earned it more? I'm including all these players because, guess what, Kagawa is still playing more on the wing.

Based on last season and this season so far, Kagawa has been better than all the players I mentioned above. That pretty much makes Kagawa our best winger, even though it's pretty far from his natural position(though I'm not gonna start that discussion again).

In the no.10 role(i.e his natural position), he's been very good overall since early March. He was brilliant/very good against Norwich, West Ham, Aston Villa, Sociedad and Leverkusen. He was average against Tottenham, and good against Everton.

Overall, Kagawa has been one of our best(probably the best) wingers from mid 2012 and up until now. He's also been very good in his natural position overall. The bottom line here is this: if Kagawa hasn't earned his spot, nor the right to be "defended", then we're really only left with Rooney. All other AMs and wingers are below par and their position in the starting XI can't be defended then.


( Seeing as I can't reply to anyone due to the personal rules I set before, I'm gonna say it here: I didn't include Januzaj in the list because I still feel it's too soon to draw a conclusion. Let's see after the season is done. The signs are very promising though. )

EDIT:
To prevent a new storm: no, I don't think Kagawa has been very good on the wing overall. I think his overall performance on the wing since he got here has been a weak 7 or a strong 6. Nothing to celebrate. But seeing as he's been our best winger overall during his time here(imo), we can't really throw him out of the starting XI either. Especially when he also can play behind the striker and do really well there.
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When was the last time, Giggs, Young or Valencia started on the left wing?
 
People seem to be judging him against mad wingers lofty acclaim. He's not been sensational but he's not been as bad as stated in here by some. He's one of our better players this season but unfortunately he's up against RvP and Rooney for a place so it doesn't matter.

At least he has the ability to play attractive football. I feel we've lost the motivation to play an entertaining game in recent years. I concur with a post above stick him behind Chico with Nani and Adnan providing further movement and options.
 
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