Shinji Kagawa

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Clearly Moyes doesnt know how to use him and in a 442 i just cant see where he would fit in, unless its in that number 10 position.

Its quite sad because i'd love to see a front 4 of Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and RvP. I think the movement and interchange would be fantastic but Moyes is set on his wide men

If you watched Everton at all, under Moyes, you'd realise he's quite capable of getting a team to play without conventional wingers.

There's loads of reasons my Moyes might chose to play with Young and Valencia ahead of Kagawa. An inability to pick a team without conventional wingers is not likely to be one of them.
 
Moyes adapted an antisymmetric system with Everton. He had Pienaar as an inside forward on the left with Mirallas as a more conventional winger on the right. I'd hoped he could've deployed something similar with Kagawa.
 
Not sure why so many excuses are made for Shinji.

Moyes has played Kagawa on the left before and he's been largely crap.

Before he was dropped completely people were having a go at the manager for playing him on the left. Now they want him to be played on the left again.
 
If you watched Everton at all, under Moyes, you'd realise he's quite capable of getting a team to play without conventional wingers.

There's loads of reasons my Moyes might chose to play with Young and Valencia ahead of Kagawa. An inability to pick a team without conventional wingers is not likely to be one of them.

Moyes has been banging on all year about United's tradtion in using wingers, and crossing the ball. I wouldn't be surprised if a) Fergie has made it clear to Moyes that he has to continue United's traditions and play with wide men, or b) Moyes himself has taken it upon himself that he has to set up a team that matches United's history, and do things the United way.

Not sure why so many excuses are made for Shinji.

Moyes has played Kagawa on the left before and he's been largely crap.

Play a player out of position then be surprised when he's crap?

Before he was dropped completely people were having a go at the manager for playing him on the left. Now they want him to be played on the left again.

No one wants him played on the left, as a left winger, they want him played in a 4-2-3-1 as part of those front 3, who would be flexible, and play a lot more centrally, as opposed to having two wide men, and one central player behind the striker.

Kagawa is not a winger, he doesn't posses the skillset that a traditional winger needs. So playing him as one, then moaning when he's pretty shit, is rather stupid imho.
 
If you watched Everton at all, under Moyes, you'd realise he's quite capable of getting a team to play without conventional wingers.

There's loads of reasons my Moyes might chose to play with Young and Valencia ahead of Kagawa. An inability to pick a team without conventional wingers is not likely to be one of them.
I dont pretend to watch as much of Everton as you clearly did, but at United i have seen inability to field a team without wingers which is where my comment comes from.

TBH i actually dont care about him playing with wingers its more that hes not open to trying different formations to get the best out of the players he has.
 
Clearly Moyes doesnt know how to use him and in a 442 i just cant see where he would fit in, unless its in that number 10 position.
Its quite sad because i'd love to see a front 4 of Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and RvP. I think the movement and interchange would be fantastic but Moyes is set on his wide men

That, to me, sounds fantastic. Add in the likes of Januzaj, Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez, and we really should be set.

This squad clearly has issues, our frontline shouldn't be one of them. The firepower is clearly there, its just about getting the best out of them. Something Moyes has shown an inability, or unwillingness to do. And continuing with 4-4-2 at all costs wont work, not unless we sign two genuinely class wingers, and midfielders.
 
Not sure why so many excuses are made for Shinji.

Moyes has played Kagawa on the left before and he's been largely crap.

Before he was dropped completely people were having a go at the manager for playing him on the left. Now they want him to be played on the left again.

Totally agree its really strange how far people are willing to go to defend a player who produces nothing in nearly every game, I find all the highlight videos posted by people of every touch he has quite funny. You can make anyone look good if you do that, put together a compilation of all Cleverlys succesful passes on a game and he will look brilliant when in reality hes shit.

Kagawa is obviously a decent player but hes not as good as people make him out to be, wide playmaker is not a million miles away in terms of difference to playing attacking mid, you get chances to pass to cut in, have shots, create things! But kagawa just looks lost and is usually subbed. I remember the away game against norwich very well, he started without rooney or rvp and I thought ok lad heres your chance! What did he do? Nothing and was subbed after an hour. Hes just not that good.
 
No one wants him played on the left, as a left winger, they want him played in a 4-2-3-1 as part of those front 3, who would be flexible, and play a lot more centrally, as opposed to having two wide men, and one central player behind the striker.
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That's exactly how he's been used and he's done feck all.

When he's played on the left he's started nominally on the left but has been given license to roam and cut in centrally.

Moyes for all his faults has never used Kagawa as an out and out winger.
 
That's exactly how he's been used and he's done feck all.

When he's played on the left he's started nominally on the left but has been given license to roam and cut in centrally.

Moyes for all his faults has never used Kagawa as an out and out winger.

He's been used as a winger in a 4-4-2. Never as part of a flexible 4-2-3-1.
 
Moyes adapted an antisymmetric system with Everton. He had Pienaar as an inside forward on the left with Mirallas as a more conventional winger on the right. I'd hoped he could've deployed something similar with Kagawa.

He's done it, but with Januzaj instea of Kagawa.
 
He's been used as a winger in a 4-4-2. Never as part of a flexible 4-2-3-1.

He's never been asked to play as an out and out winger. He's been given the freedom to drift in and largely done feck all. The only argument for him getting more game time is that Young and Valencia have been crap.
 
People can argue about the differences between the left and the centre or Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia until they're blue in the face. It's futile. Until the coaching staff develop the imagination and understanding as to how to improve our off-the-ball movement and passing plays then no matter who it is, players will struggle.

Ronaldo, Messi, you name it. Their brilliance will be of the individual kind at this United, as it currently is with the likes of Van Persie and Rooney. Most other players need more than that. They need movement, they need options, they need coaches that encourage the confidence to pass and move at speed, as well as having the creativity to actually drill that into the players. Martinez and Rodgers do this. Even Poyet at Sunderland, is doing this.

Honestly, the arguments about whether Young, or Kagawa, or Januzaj, or whoever, should play on the left is a bit pointless at the moment. Our issues are a lot deeper than that, and it's up to the coaches to sort that out. Individual quality is only that, it's called a team sport for a reason. Play like one!
 
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Yeah, but with Adnan being left footed and encouraged to go for the byline rather than cutting in.
Januzaj has probably played more on the right than the left. He's also used Mata in a similar position. For all his faults he has shown willingness to try something other than touchline hugging wingers. Kagawa just hasn't shown himself to be indispensable.
 
Januzaj has probably played more on the right than the left. He's also used Mata in a similar position. For all his faults he has shown willingness to try something other than touchline hugging wingers. Kagawa just hasn't shown himself to be indispensable.
Januzaj has definitely been used more on the left.
 
Sticking Kagawa or Mata on the wing doesn't mean he's not still playing a 4-4-2. Its just means he's playing a 4-4-2 with players out of position.
 
Moyes adapted an antisymmetric system with Everton. He had Pienaar as an inside forward on the left with Mirallas as a more conventional winger on the right. I'd hoped he could've deployed something similar with Kagawa.

I think pretty much every time Kagawa or Mata have started out wide they have been allowed to drift in. Januzaj too when paired with Valencia/Young on the other side, who provide the width instead. A lot of people have made this observation.
 
Sticking Kagawa or Mata on the wing doesn't mean he's not still playing a 4-4-2. Its just means he's playing a 4-4-2 with players out of position.

Unless you watch the actual game instead of basing your opinion on how Sky show the line-ups on the graphic before the game. In which case, you'd see that it's a completely unconventional 4-4-2 at best.
 
I think pretty much every time Kagawa or Mata have started out wide they have been allowed to drift in. Januzaj too when paired with Valencia/Young on the other side, who provide the width instead. A lot of people have made this observation.
I'd agree, particularly with Mata on the right and Kagawa on the left. Januzaj has maybe been encouraged to dribble on the outside when deployed on the left but the other two have been given freedom to roam into their more preferable central position. To this day the best we've seen from Kagawa has been centrally, but the fact is there's no room for him there, unfortunately he hasn't a future at the club, it would seem.
 
Unless you watch the actual game instead of basing your opinion on how Sky show the line-ups on the graphic before the game. In which case, you'd see that it's a completely unconventional 4-4-2 at best.

Its mainly been Valenica on the right wing, with Kagawa on the left. Yes, Kagawa has drifted in, that his natural game, but it take more then one player drifting in to make the system work. Its needs the frontline to play as a unit, its been a 4-4-2 with Kagawa drifting about a bit, and the other sticking to the rigid 4-4-2, get the ball wide at all costs tactic. Thats never gonna work with Kagawa, never in a million years.
 
People can argue about the differences between the left and the centre or Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia until they're blue in the face. It's futile. Until the coaching staff develop the imagination and understanding as to how to improvement our off-the-ball movement and passing plays then no matter who it is, players will struggle.

Ronaldo, Messi, you name it. Their brilliance will be of the individual kind at this United, as it currently is with the likes of Van Persie and Rooney. Most other players need more than that. They need movement, they need options, they need coaches that encourage the confidence to pass and move at speed, as well as having the creativity to actually drill that into the players. Martinez and Rodgers do this. Even Poyet at Sunderland, is doing this.

Honestly, the arguments about whether Young, or Kagawa, or Januzaj, or whoever, should play on the left is a bit pointless at the moment. Our issues are a lot deeper than that, and it's up to the coaches to sort that out. Individual quality is only that, it's called a team sport for a reason. Play like one!
I came to this realisation a while ago. It's pointless picking lineups because whoever you bring in it just ends up being a different type of shit because the basic requirements aren't in place for the team to function effectively as a unit. The off the ball movement, the interchanging, the freedom for players to express themselves and try something audacious, the confidence... It isn't there.
 
Doesn't really cover where he's come off the bench to play. I can think of two instantly from the top of my mind when he was brought on to play on the right. Either way, his appearances on that side and those of Mata shows that Moyes is happy to play wingers and not expect them to hug the touchline. It's just an excuse for Kagawa's poor performances. He doesn't play as a winger.
 
Doesn't really cover where he's come off the bench to play. I can think of two instantly from the top of my mind when he was brought on to play on the right. Either way, his appearances on that side and those of Mata shows that Moyes is happy to play wingers and not expect them to hug the touchline. It's just an excuse for Kagawa's poor performances. He doesn't play as a winger.
I never said Kagawa played as a winger, neither does Mata, but Januzaj has definitely been encouraged to make for the byline more than the other two.
 
I never said Kagawa played as a winger, neither does Mata, but Januzaj has definitely been encouraged to make for the byline more than the other two.
Encouraged or chooses to? If he's playing on the left he's more likely to go that way.
 
Encouraged or chooses to? If he's playing on the left he's more likely to go that way.
Judging by the Fulham game, in which he listened keenly to Moyes before coming on and making for the byline and rocketing as many crosses in as possible, I'd say encouraged. It's no secret Moyes values crosses.
 
I came to this realisation a while ago. It's pointless picking lineups because whoever you bring in it just ends up being a different type of shit because the basic requirements aren't in place for the team to function effectively as a unit. The off the ball movement, the interchanging, the freedom for players to express themselves and try something audacious, the confidence... It isn't there.

Absolutely. I think people will understand this a little further come next season, particularly if this supposed "overhaul" is to happen.
 
Absolutely. I think people will understand this a little further come next season, particularly if this supposed "overhaul" is to happen.
Yeah, it'll be a rude awakening for some but I couldn't agree more.
 
Not sure why so many excuses are made for Shinji.

Moyes has played Kagawa on the left before and he's been largely crap.

Before he was dropped completely people were having a go at the manager for playing him on the left. Now they want him to be played on the left again.
dont think anymore excuses can be made really. At end of day, excuses or no excuses kagawa is a quality player but he needs to do more.I think it's worth trying to up his confidence a bit because the quality is certainly there to aid the team. Never wanted him on the left in the setup that moyes is demanding because it's not just conducive to how kagawa approaches the game. Kagawa is much better in central areas. You're only going to get good use of out of him on the left if there's good movement around him and a style more based on short passing rather than long switches of play.

with the way we're playing he's useless on the left but yet still asked to play there. THink people want to see him play because they know what he can offer. The issue is that he's not going to come in and magically make us play great football either. It's a systematic issue at the root of it all
 
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Excuses or no excuses, he's been amongst our best players in each of the last 3-4 appearances, yet he's been taken off or just had a short period of time to show something, and goes a few weeks without any action. It's not like it's a case of him needing to force his way ahead of performing players - he needs to get in front of Valencia or young. He's a much better player and for the most part this season has put in less shit performances. He's just been treated totally unfairly and moyes clearly doesn't like him.

When kagawa is poor, he's just a bit ineffective, but he still keeps possession. When young is shit, he does his same cut in and cross into the first man or out of bounds every time, and Valencia is just always shit. I'd rather give the more talented player of the 3 the time and games to build up some form rather then use him the way moyes has. Personal opinion of course, but it just seems logical to me that you play your best players if everyone is off form and hope they kick on.

You can't even say the other two are better defensively, because they just aren't.
 
Totally agree its really strange how far people are willing to go to defend a player who produces nothing in nearly every game, I find all the highlight videos posted by people of every touch he has quite funny. You can make anyone look good if you do that, put together a compilation of all Cleverlys succesful passes on a game and he will look brilliant when in reality hes shit.

Kagawa is obviously a decent player but hes not as good as people make him out to be, wide playmaker is not a million miles away in terms of difference to playing attacking mid, you get chances to pass to cut in, have shots, create things! But kagawa just looks lost and is usually subbed. I remember the away game against norwich very well, he started without rooney or rvp and I thought ok lad heres your chance! What did he do? Nothing and was subbed after an hour. Hes just not that good.
But arent you using some bias here though? This reads like I expected Kagawa to take his chance. He didnt so therefore he's not that good in my book. But that's pretty harsh if you're expecting a player to turn up in one game when he's out of favour. Not every player follows the same trajectory. There seems to be this expectation/paradigm that if you're given a chance and dont make the most of it, you're not good enough. If that's where your reasoning stops then I argue that you're missing out on some of the finer points. Player development isn't one size fit all approach either. IF that was the case, then the football world would have missed out on some great talents.

Some players need more time than others. feel same way about nani. He has one mediocre game and then is taken out and all we remember is how frustrating he was. Then we use that memory to shape our opinion of Nani even though there may have been some good bits that we missed out on. If you're not willing to be patient with a player then they may never get the chance to grow into a role.

If producing nothing in a game is playing a pass to a teammate who then hits the post then that's on you.

On the flipside, it also suggests Shinji doesnt measure up mentally and is struggling to adjust to being at Manchester United. Doesn't seem to have Moyes' faith either which is probably the nail in the coffin.

It's clear you dont rate Kagawa too highly though but I would understand it a bit more if he was underperforming in a team where the majority of players were in good form. Right now, we keep looking for sparks of hope from somewhere and keep getting disappointed and the team hasn't been performing well all season. Could he have done more? Certainly but I think it's also important to keep in mind the different factors that can affect these players' confidence and their performances. If you're not getting passed the ball despite being making yourself available, what can you do?
 
Moyes adapted an antisymmetric system with Everton. He had Pienaar as an inside forward on the left with Mirallas as a more conventional winger on the right. I'd hoped he could've deployed something similar with Kagawa.
think that's going a bit too far in the other direction. They definitely kept an element of width no matter what. Pienaar was allowed to float inside but Moyes has always been incessant on overloading the wide areas.
 
When does Kagawa not drift inside? He naturally moves to the more central areas irrespective of the position he starts on the pitch. I haven't seen a game where he has stayed out wide and put in crosses.
 
I just think it's a shame, we have a player who is a huge fan of Man United, and really wants to play football here, not being selected over under-performing players. Opportunities where talented players playing for their dream club don't happen often anymore in football. We should take advantage of the moment and do our best to accommodate him as much as possible (without it having a detrimental impact on the team of course). He honestly can't be worse than what we have seen from other players in the moment, he has the intelligence that certain players in our side lack.

I really don't understand whats going on to be honest.
 
Sorry to add on to my post so quickly, but before Kagawa couldn't be played because of Rooney. Now that Rooney seems to be the main man at the club, maybe having Kawaga start on the wing would not be a bad idea. Starting on the wing does not necessarily mean he as to stay there, positions in football should never be 'fixed'. The best football to watch is a football that is in constant flux, with players interchanging with rapid movements catching defenders off guard. Kagawa, Mata, Rooney, RVP and Januzaj all have a ability to play in the fluid formation, we should take advantage of that wide array of talent we have upfront - not freeze certain players out and get rid of them. Look at Bayern for instance, they cannot get enough midfield players and attackers and look how well they are doing with their interchanging formation and fluid football.
 
Cole backs "quality" Shinji
Manchester United legend Andy Cole believes Shinji Kagawa should not be too downhearted about his recent shortage of game-time for the Reds.Kagawa’s half-hour appearance in United’s Champions League defeat to Olympiacos was his first action for more than a month, while his last Barclays Premier League outing was the 2-0 win over Swansea on 11 January.But Cole says the Japanese star is not the only player competing for his place in David Moyes’ team, and backed the attacker to make his mark again soon.Treble-winner Cole speaks from experience, having had to accept spells out of the side himself during his Reds career, due to the wealth of forward options at the club. When asked about Kagawa at a club event in Tokyo, Cole said: "He is a quality player but he is not the only one who is finding it hard to get regular football. There are many top players in the squad and there is plenty of competition. "But having seen Shinji play at Dortmund, I know for sure how good he is. He was the best player in Germany for two years. I believe he’ll come back with some good displays." Cole says United should still target a Champions League spot with 11 league games to go. "We need to win as many games as possible and a top-four finish is still a realistic target," he told ManUtd.jp. "For whatever reason, it has been a tough season. But all the top teams will try to get better and we need to stay with them next year."

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...ted-legend-andy-cole-backs-shinji-kagawa.aspx
 
When does Kagawa not drift inside? He naturally moves to the more central areas irrespective of the position he starts on the pitch. I haven't seen a game where he has stayed out wide and put in crosses.

Pretty much same applies for Mata, heatmaps prove that yet some people are just obsessed with giving shit to our tactics and follow the logic of if they start there, it means that they play there.
 
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