Shinji Kagawa

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Pat_Mustard said:
It has to be a confidence or sharpness issue - he's shown he's a competent finisher before. I completely agree there's more in his locker. I just hope we don't sell him in the summer. He hasn't done himself justice here so far and of course he's partly culpable for that, but it is a worry if we can't find a way to accommodate this type of player.

Just out of interest, how did he perform for Dortmund against Bayern @Balu and @Sphaero ?
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His last game for Dortmund was against Bayern in the German Cup final if I remember correctly. He was one of the best players on the pitch for Dortmund, and Fergie+Phelan were both there in person on a scouting mission. I think it was reported afterwards that Fergie and Shinji spoke after the game.

I think he should definitely play against Bayern, especially with Mata being Cup tied, and RVP out. It's tailor made for him behind Rooney in the 10 spot. Give him someone with pace and good movement like Welbeck and Nani, with Rooney in front, and it'd be a decent front four.
 
Thought he was very good today. I think he certainly benefited having a playing like Mata next to him where he could stick to his short passing game and constant interchanging.

With RVP injured, I imagine (hope) we'll see more of Shinji between now and the end of the season.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
It has to be a confidence or sharpness issue - he's shown he's a competent finisher before. I completely agree there's more in his locker. I just hope we don't sell him in the summer. He hasn't done himself justice here so far and of course he's partly culpable for that, but it is a worry if we can't find a way to accommodate this type of player.

Just out of interest, how did he perform for Dortmund against Bayern @Balu and @Sphaero ?
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He played great in their cup final just weeks before joining us. He scored the first and assisted the next two I think in a 5 2 win for Dortmund.
 
Nights said:
His last game for Dortmund was against Bayern in the German Cup final if I remember correctly. He was one of the best players on the pitch for Dortmund, and Fergie+Phelan were both there in person on a scouting mission. I think it was reported afterwards that Fergie and Shinji spoke after the game.

I think he should definitely play against Bayern, especially with Mata being Cup tied, and RVP out. It's tailor made for him behind Rooney in the 10 spot. Give him someone with pace and good movement like Welbeck and Nani, with Rooney in front, and it'd be a decent front four.
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Alock1 said:
He played great in their cup final just weeks before joining us. He scored the first and assisted the next two I think in a 5 2 win for Dortmund.
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Thanks lads. I agree that with Mata and RVP out of the picture he should start against Bayern. I can't see Nani playing himself into contention before then, but even a front four of Welbeck-Kagawa-Valencia-Rooney has enough defensive workrate to make it viable and provide a reasonable goal threat.
 
Reading a lot about lack of pace with Mata and Kagawa in the side but today saw Kagawa really show some really good pace on the break. He isn't one to beat defenders with pace in a one v one situation but when we broke today he seemed to really liven up.

Hope we stick with him Tuesday. Need him against Bayern. Will be able to retain possession in games we will have very little if.
 
He gave us a lot of movement, especially in midfield where we looked very poor this season. He made himself available and due to his movement, free'd up other players around him (which gave Mata more room as well). He also dropped deep to support our build up and with his quick pass and move play it was easier for us to bring the ball forward, another thing we have struggled with this season. So while there is still room for improvement for him, he can add something to our team that we lack and that helps us play better football. I would play him against City
 
Not sure whether he'll start against City, but that's purely based on the fact he played the full 90.

I hope he does though :drool: Him, Rooney and Mata were lovely together. Intelligence was gushing between those three. If we have Nani/Welbeck in for Young as well for Tuesday, I'll be insanely excited.
 
I am so desperate for this guy to suddenly transform and become one of our most important players. I just love the way he plays football, it's incredible to watch.
 
Don`t forget he`s a Japanese player with his previous experience in Europe. Asian players take a while to adjust as the game simply is not as physical in Japan and Korea as it is in the Premier League. Even in Europe with plenty of physically strong players there is a difference with the different pace. Shinji has footballing intelligence in the true sense and a style of playing noted for its finesse. If the team doesn`t plunge any further and gets its act together consistently again, watch Shinji go.
 
Sadly I expect Moyes to have exceeded his "play Kagawa once every bluemoon" quota and relegate him to the bench for a few weeks again.

I really want to see him and Mata play behind Rooney on Tuesday, though I doubt Moyes will let it happen.
 
I don't think he'll start on Tuesday, think Moyes will go with Welbeck, Mata and Valencia (Young if Tony's eye thing hasn't healed up for some reason) behind Rooney. That's ok though, I think the matches to watch out for are Villa and Bayern; as long as Shinji starts one of those, we can say he's back in the manager's plans.
 
Kagawa does so much work that isn't even noticed. He is always available for a pass. He is always in space. He just isn't given the ball as much as he should be. He could be outstanding.
 
I'm on the fence about starting him against City. We'll need to do a lot more defensive work so Valencia could help but at the same time Kagawa could help keep possession a lot better and make our attacks more potent. Plus he needs games if he does come in against Bayern. If Welbeck and Valencia do both come in I think i'll approach will change a lot as Welbeck won't come as deep as he did. Personally given our position really doesn't mean much I'd much rather keep Kagawa in over Valencia but can understand if Valencia comes back in.
 
Valencias defensive work is so overrated, he gets skinned and concedes dangerous free kicks far too often. We have nothing left to play for in the league, play with the best attacking intent and go for it, might as well. No more cowardly containing bollocks this season (except in the champions league maybe :< )
 
Ash_G said:
I'm on the fence about starting him against City. We'll need to do a lot more defensive work so Valencia could help but at the same time Kagawa could help keep possession a lot better and make our attacks more potent. Plus he needs games if he does come in against Bayern. If Welbeck and Valencia do both come in I think i'll approach will change a lot as Welbeck won't come as deep as he did. Personally given our position really doesn't mean much I'd much rather keep Kagawa in over Valencia but can understand if Valencia comes back in.
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Second this. The difference in quality of football between City and ours is quite significant at the moment, Kagawa will definitely struggle when we're facing a long period without the ball. I feel we should approach the game with a Moyes-style workman-ish football and force them into making mistakes. Once we've settled into the game we can introduce Kagawa to finish off the job.
 
Kaos said:
Valencias defensive work is so overrated, he gets skinned and concedes dangerous free kicks far too often. We have nothing left to play for in the league, play with the best attacking intent and go for it, might as well. No more cowardly containing bollocks this season (except in the champions league maybe :< )
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Couldn't agree more.
 
Kaos said:
Valencias defensive work is so overrated, he gets skinned and concedes dangerous free kicks far too often.
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Definitely agree with this. Kagawa, whilst he doesn't defend as aggressively as Valencia does, defends more intelligently and tries to close down all of the passing avenues that the ball holder has. Once he believes that this is accomplished by him and others, he then goes in and wins the ball from the opposition. Plus, if we do drop deep and win the ball, Kagawa is better at keeping the ball and pushing us forward than Valencia is. Valencia loses the ball more easily than Kagawa. Plus, on the break, he is a bit more wasteful than Kagawa and more prone to ruining the counter-attack.

I'd definitely play Kagawa over Valencia. Valencia's defensive qualities are good against poorer opposition such as Everton, West Brom, Swansea, Norwich, Olympiakos, etc., not against Arsenal, Man. City, Chelsea, etc.
 
i agree with @Ash_G and @pocco. Think we may be better served starting Welbeck over Kagawa on Tuesday. THought kagawa was great yesterday but we're coming up against a side who loves to overload in midfield and I'm not sure despite our performance yesterday, we're ready to handle the kind of challenge city will throw at us in midfield with the same attacking 4 we saw against City.

Let's not forget he operates best when the team is in good flow but cant be expected to lift the team on his own. The consummate team player imo which is perfectly fine. We just need to know when/how to use that fact to our advantage. Think welbeck's pace and ability to beat players on the dribble may help us more against City whereas I'd use Shinji against Bayern.
 
Gladiator said:
i agree with @Ash_G and @pocco. Think we may be better served starting Welbeck over Kagawa on Tuesday. THought kagawa was great yesterday but we're coming up against a side who loves to overload in midfield and I'm not sure despite our performance yesterday, we're ready to handle the kind of challenge city will throw at us in midfield with the same attacking 4 we saw against City.

Let's not forget he operates best when the team is in good flow but cant be expected to lift the team on his own. The consummate team player imo which is perfectly fine. We just need to know when/how to use that fact to our advantage. Think welbeck's pace and ability to beat players on the dribble may help us more against City whereas I'd use Shinji against Bayern.
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I'd play them both, we don't need Young or Valencia. Any time we play against big teams, the two of them get shown up for their lack of quality, and defensively they aren't even that great, marginally better then Kagawa at most IMO. Also when we do get the ball, it's important to have players who won't lose it right away, and are capable of actually making something happen. Kagawa is one of the best in our team for actually keeping possession and keeping the play moving along, doesn't play stupid passes or needlessly lose it a lot. He's also more then capable of playing the splitting passes and making chances.

We won't do it, but the same front 4 as against West Ham, but Welbeck in for Young would be a very good lineup I think.
 
bosnian_red said:
I'd play them both, we don't need Young or Valencia. Any time we play against big teams, the two of them get shown up for their lack of quality, and defensively they aren't even that great, marginally better then Kagawa at most IMO. Also when we do get the ball, it's important to have players who won't lose it right away, and are capable of actually making something happen. Kagawa is one of the best in our team for actually keeping possession and keeping the play moving along, doesn't play stupid passes or needlessly lose it a lot. He's also more then capable of playing the splitting passes and making chances.

We won't do it, but the same front 4 as against West Ham, but Welbeck in for Young would be a very good lineup I think.
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my rebuttal to that https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rooney-and-mata-kagawa-welbeck.386980/page-2#post-15318439
 
I'd play both Kagawa and Welbeck. Welbeck can play wide right, wide left or up top. Rooney can play up top or in behind. Mata can play all across the attacking three. Welbeck can do what Valencia does, just he's a lot better, quicker, more likely to score and a hell of a lot more versatile.

Rooney, Welbeck, Mata and Kagawa, please. Of course, we all know that Valencia will play.
 
akash02 said:
We could just drop Young and play both Kagawa and Welbeck.
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He has played kagawa and Young to rest Welbeck and valencia for the City game, no doubt about it.

I'll be very surpised if I'd see any of those 2 in the starting line up versus City. Especially because Kagawa played the full 90 minutes I don't think he'll start the game, he'll be on the bench and if the moment presents itself he may be brought in later on. However I think Valencia and Welbeck will start on the wings and I can also see a spot for Giggs on the midfield.
 
@akash02 fair enough but playing both welbeck and kagawa and allowing them both to drift inside reminds of plan A, no plan B city from last season
 
Gladiator said:
@akash02 fair enough but playing both welbeck and kagawa and allowing them both to drift inside reminds of plan A, no plan B city from last season
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We are playing at home. We shouldn't let their tactics and lineup dictate our team. We've spent far too much of the season playing Valencia and Young for their defensive ability (which hasn't been evident so far). Time for us to pick players for their attacking ability.
 
Gladiator said:
my rebuttal to that https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rooney-and-mata-kagawa-welbeck.386980/page-2#post-15318439
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I'd agree, but seeing as nothing really worked up until that game vs West Ham, I wouldn't be against trying it. All intelligent players who I think would be able to make it work, fullbacks overlapping. Yesterday I don't think Youngs width made that big of a difference. In fact, putting in Welbeck would have been even better IMO. Ideally, a fully fit Nani would be perfect for the right flank as he's capable of being the inside forward, being the wide player, and offering pace, loads of skill and strength out there. He's like an all in one when on form. Just hope he can stay fit now, and we start using him. He's been injured for the best part of these last 2 seasons, and when he has played its been 1 game and then a few weeks on the bench. Nobody can pick up form like that.
 
akash02 said:
We are playing at home. We shouldn't let their tactics and lineup dictate our team. We've spent far too much of the season playing Valencia and Young for their defensive ability (which hasn't been evident so far). Time for us to pick players for their attacking ability.
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i agree but there has to be balance most importantly otherwise we risk a cricket score.
 
bosnian_red said:
I'd agree, but seeing as nothing really worked up until that game vs West Ham, I wouldn't be against trying it. All intelligent players who I think would be able to make it work, fullbacks overlapping. Yesterday I don't think Youngs width made that big of a difference. In fact, putting in Welbeck would have been even better IMO. Ideally, a fully fit Nani would be perfect for the right flank as he's capable of being the inside forward, being the wide player, and offering pace, loads of skill and strength out there. He's like an all in one when on form. Just hope he can stay fit now, and we start using him. He's been injured for the best part of these last 2 seasons, and when he has played its been 1 game and then a few weeks on the bench. Nobody can pick up form like that.
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imo nani works better because he can strike the good balance of staying and drifting in. something welbeck is still learning. only problem is that nani hasn't played for ages.
 
Gladiator said:
@akash02 fair enough but playing both welbeck and kagawa and allowing them both to drift inside reminds of plan A, no plan B city from last season
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Better then our lack of plan this season though. Valencia and Young offer width, yes, but they do nothing with it and lose the ball most of the time. Welbeck can at least offer pace and skill out wide, and the 4 of them would be able to move around in a fluid system as they are all capable of playing in those front 4 positions. We have options on the bench to change them so its not like it would be no plan B. Also, the fullbacks would still offer width from overlapping runs if going through the middle doesn't work.
 
Gladiator said:
i agree but there has to be balance most importantly otherwise we risk a cricket score.
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I don't think it will be too much of an issue against City. They play with Nasri and Silva out wide so it's not like they are blessed with width either. Of course, they could play Navas in which case Young's selection might be justified.
 
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