Shinji Kagawa

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acnumber9 said:
And Mata has still managed to shit all over Kagawa. There's a reason he's been picked in the middle more often than Kagawa. All players need to play in a good team to be at their best. Only Kagawa has it used as an excuse every single time. What he did at Dortmund is irrelevant to whether he can play for Utd in a different, tougher league.
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For United this season, Mata and Kagawa has the same number of assists in the same number of games started in the league.

Mata has scored more, but tbf nearly half his goals has come from freekicks, which is an area where Kagawa can't compete. Do you honestly think that Kagawa would remain goal-less if he was allowed a) consistent playtime and b) the AM position? If the answer to this is yes, then you obviously have an agenda.

The Bundesliga's average level is lower than the average level of the PL, but Dortmund is still better than all the teams in the PL.
 
sizzling sausages said:
Didn't Sahin come out and say Rodgers played him completely out of position? And SAF did the same with Kagawa too. Playing him from the left with slow players around him isn't gonna work.
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If either of those players were good enough to warrant having the side tailored to their strengths, the managers would have done that. As it was, neither SAF nor Rogers reckoned that they offered enough at their best to justify that. A lack of versatility shouldn't be seen as a virtue.
 
Red Shorts said:
He had a couple of games to show his worth as a #10, which he did well. The difference for me is we have players in Mata and Rooney that can change games on their own and dictate, whereas Kagawa hasn't done that. That's why I don't think he merits the #10 permanently, but does deserve a run there
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Rooney is fast becoming our Steven Gerrard. Highlight reel goals masking deficiencies in his all round play. I also don't see why Mata and Kagawa can't play together. Both of them have played both centrally and out left drifting in. They didn't look too bad against Newcastle.

I just hate the fact that people are knocking him for that performance today, where he was played in what was essentially a midfield 2 against a Southampton side who had 3 midfielders who arguable are better than ours of the past couple of seasons. He's not even a centre midfielder ffs.
 
Spoony said:
Hmmm...he's been a massive flop. And to think he was Bundersliga player of the season. Based on the last two seasons I suspect we bought him after a purple patch.
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Alas, this is probably true. He was never Bundesliga player of the season, by the way. Just won some mickey mouse online internet poll. Don't even think it was a German website.
 
Dante said:
If either of those players were good enough to warrant having the side tailored to their strengths, the managers would have done that. As it was, neither SAF nor Rogers reckoned that they offered enough at their best to justify that. A lack of versatility shouldn't be seen as a virtue.
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It's acctually astounding that people stll try to get away with the lie that SAF didn't rate Kagawa, or that Kagawa was equally bad under SAF as he was under Moyes...
 
Mad Winger said:
Mata the assist king of United: 13 starts, 4 assists.
Kagawa the passenger: 13 starts, 4 assists.

And to think that Mata has 3 distinct advantages that Kagawa hasn't:

1) Consistent playtime
2) Plays in his favored position
3) Takes corners and freekicks
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Where do you get your stats from? Anywhere I've seen has Kagawa on 3. How many assists has Mata got from set pieces?
 
He's a pretty player on the ball. Neat and tidy with some good touches. I suspect this is why people and 'hipsters' in particular like him. But he's never made the difference for us when it counts.

For some reason though people want us to build an entire team around him when he's never shown the capability of running a football match for us.
 
You have to wonder if Van Gaal can get the best out of him next season or if the decision is to ship him off.

Maybe in a 4-3-3 he would be more effective?
 
Mad Winger said:
For United this season, Mata and Kagawa has the same number of assists in the same number of games started in the league.

Mata has scored more, but tbf nearly half his goals has come from freekicks, which is an area where Kagawa can't compete. Do you honestly think that Kagawa would remain goal-less if he was allowed a) consistent playtime and b) the AM position? If the answer to this is yes, then you obviously have an agenda.

The Bundesliga's average level is lower than the average level of the PL, but Dortmund is still better than all the teams in the PL.
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I've already questioned you on those assists stats so I'll not ask again.

Goalless? No. As many as Mata? Definitely not. Kagawa has scored in four games for Utd in 2 seasons. Mata has already matched that.

You're last point is incorrect and irrelevant anyway. Dortmund are not better than every team in the Premier League. If it was true it would only further serve to make Kagawa's job in that league easier anyway which would make him seem like a player only suited to playing weak opposition in a much stronger team.
 
....sigh.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/may/07/newsstory.sport3

I am this close to echoing what Fergie said in this article. :lol:

Surely people can see the good things that Kagawa does on the pitch, without just looking at assists and goal tallies? He's had some poor performances, yes, but he's also one of the few players we have who is intelligent, brings his team mates into play well and is actually comfortable enough on the ball against top sides like Bayern.

Besides, Moyes didn't rate him, and he wasn't a great Manchester United manager now, was he?
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
He's a pretty player on the ball. Neat and tidy with some good touches. I suspect this is why people and 'hipsters' in particular like him. But he's never made the difference for us when it counts.

For some reason though people want us to build an entire team around him when he's never shown the capability of running a football match for us.
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His most evident deficiency is a lack of bollox. Combined with rumours of a lack of application and evident lack of stamina we might be better off rid. Neat touches, or no neat touches.
 
NinjaZombie said:
....sigh.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/may/07/newsstory.sport3

I am this close to echoing what Fergie said in this article. :lol:

Surely people can see the good things that Kagawa does on the pitch, without just looking at assists and goal tallies? He's had some poor performances, yes, but he's also one of the few players we have who is intelligent, brings his team mates into play well and is actually comfortable enough on the ball against top sides like Bayern.

Besides, Moyes didn't rate him, and he wasn't a great Manchester United manager now, was he?
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Steve Round thought he was the cat's pyjamas. Make of that what you will.
 
sizzling sausages said:
I think Kagawa actually tracks back well although his tackling and positional sense is a bit shit. And I think we'd probably struggle with those four playing anyway as we would have no pace and would be playing too narrow.
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They might play well together attacking wise, but their lack of pace and athleticism would leave us unbalanced and vulnerable defensively. I just can't see any room for Kagawa in our squad next season.
 
His last two performances were probably the two worst I can remember in a United shirt. Where he played was irrelevant because the things he's praised for - his touch, intelligence, movement - were what failed him time and again. He was in a position where he could get as much of the ball and as much influence on the game as any player on the pitch and he didn't look up to it. Lost the ball so easily so many times.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
They might play well together attacking wise, but their lack of pace and athleticism would leave us unbalanced and vulnerable defensively. I just can't see any room for Kagawa in our squad next season.
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2nd choice for both AM and left wing position. 1st choice for the latter as things stand actually.
 
acnumber9 said:
I've already questioned you on those assists stats so I'll not ask again
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Transfermarkt says that Kagawa has 4 asssist in the PL. The reason I mentioned Mata's setpieces, is because I expected people to bring up the goals scored stat. And they did.

acnumber9 said:
Goalless? No. As many as Mata? Definitely not. Kagawa has scored in four games for Utd in 2 seasons. Mata has already matched that.
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You have to keep in mind that ever since Kagawa came here, he's struggled with 3 things that Mata hasn't:

1) a very lengthy injury spell
2) playing out of position for the vast majority of the time
3) spending a lot of time on the bench

In fact, Kagawa has never been given the same run of games as Mata has for us. What's even worse, is that Mata already has had more minutes in the no.10 role than Kagawa has. Or they're around the same number of minutes.

But even if you completely ignore these more than reasonable variables, you have to realize that Mata's greatest strength, is his effectivity. He's like a striker in the way he takes his chances for assists and goals. His overall play besides this, is not better than Silva, Özil and even Kagawa. What makes Mata unique, is his setpieces and effectivity. That's why I actually expect him to have significantly more goals/assists than Kagawa. But he really hasn't, if you take the variables above into consideration.

acnumber9 said:
You're last point is incorrect and irrelevant anyway. Dortmund are not better than every team in the Premier League. If it was true it would only further serve to make Kagawa's job in that league easier anyway which would make him seem like a player only suited to playing weak opposition in a much stronger team.
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This is word against word, but I still think that Dortmund is better than City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

Kagawa played 4 games combined against Bayern, and was generally brilliant. He's also played great games for Japan in games where they were the underdog(vs Italy, for instance).
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
They might play well together attacking wise, but their lack of pace and athleticism would leave us unbalanced and vulnerable defensively. I just can't see any room for Kagawa in our squad next season.
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I wouldn't have him as a starter but he would be a good player to have in the squad incase of injuries or if one of the starters lose form.
 
Dante said:
If either of those players were good enough to warrant having the side tailored to their strengths, the managers would have done that. As it was, neither SAF nor Rogers reckoned that they offered enough at their best to justify that. A lack of versatility shouldn't be seen as a virtue.
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Playing a deeplying CM (Sahin) in the offensive midfield is not a side tailoring his strengths, it is simply playing someone out of position. The required skill sets for both roles are vastly different. Same with Kagawa, a player for the final third of the pitch, putting into a two men central midfield. It does not work at United. It would not have worked for Dortmund, either. He is simply not suited for that role, especially in a physical league like the PL.

There is a big difference between changing a position inside the offensive midfield (left or centrally) or playing someone far deeper on the pitch.
 
I think it has everything to do with where he's playing. He was one of our most in form players for a run, then he has 2 games in central midfield when hes not a central midfielder and they just happen to be "the two worst"? He's not comfortable playing there and was off his game. That can often happen when you're asked to play a position you havent played before.

He was tackled twice and played a loose ball that was intercepted once today and had 73% pass accuracy. He was tackled twice vs. Hull with 88% pass accuracy. Certainly giving the ball away more than you'd want from your central midfielder.

On the plus side Fletcher finally looked the better of a midfield pairing this season.
 
So are we back to people saying Kagawa can only play in the number 10 after his experiment in central midfield?

Removing all bias aside, does anyone seriously think LVG is going to prefer Kagawa over both Rooney and Mata in that position? I don't see it happening for a second.

When you also consider LVG appears someone who favours actual wide players on the flanks, I really don't see where he fits as a first team regular.

Even if you work on the rather massive assumption that LVG won't play Rooney as a number 10 he still has Mata in that position and Kagawa does not seem to fit the blue print he looks for with wide players.

If we add a top class wide player(think Sanchez, Reus, etc) then I really struggle to see where he fits other than as an understudy.
 
Mad Winger said:
Transfermarkt says that Kagawa has 4 asssist in the PL. The reason I mentioned Mata's setpieces, is because I expected people to bring up the goals scored stat. And they did.



You have to keep in mind that ever since Kagawa came here, he's struggled with 3 things that Mata hasn't:

1) a very lengthy injury spell
2) playing out of position for the vast majority of the time
3) spending a lot of time on the bench

In fact, Kagawa has never been given the same run of games as Mata has for us. What's even worse, is that Mata already has had more minutes in the no.10 role than Kagawa has. Or they're around the same number of minutes.

But even if you completely ignore these more than reasonable variables, you have to realize that Mata's greatest strength, is his effectivity. He's like a striker in the way he takes his chances for assists and goals. His overall play besides this, is not better than Silva, Özil and even Kagawa. What makes Mata unique, is his setpieces and effectivity. That's why I actually expect him to have significantly more goals/assists than Kagawa. But he really hasn't, if you take the variables above into consideration.



This is word against word, but I still think that Dortmund is better than City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

Kagawa played 4 games combined against Bayern, and was generally brilliant. He's also played great games for Japan in games where they are the underdog(vs Italy, for instance).
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Everywhere else has him at 3. No surprise why you chose the more flattering statistic. Mata's assists haven't come from set pieces to my memory so it doesn't matter. It just means that he has another string to his bow and the promise of even more goals created.

There is a reason that Mata has been given those opportunities and Kagawa hasn't. The managers haven't just picked Mata because he's a nice guy. He really does score way more goals. He's already matched what Kagawa has managed in 2 years. These are facts, not subjective opinion.

I'm not sure how much faith I'll put in how excellent he was in all those games given your propensity for exaggerating everything Kagawa has ever done.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
So are we back to people saying Kagawa can only play in the number 10 after his experiment in central midfield?

Removing all bias aside, does anyone seriously think LVG is going to prefer Kagawa over both Rooney and Mata in that position? I don't see it happening for a second.

When you also consider LVG appears someone who favours actual wide players on the flanks, I really don't see where he fits as a first team regular.

Even if you work on the rather massive assumption that LVG won't play Rooney as a number 10 he still has Mata in that position and Kagawa does not seem to fit the blue print he looks for with wide players.

If we add a top class wide player(think Sanchez, Reus, etc) then I really struggle to see where he fits other than as an understudy.
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Van Gaal had Robbem playing right when he was Bayern manager, Robben is far from a proper wide player.
 
At this point I'm just holding on to the idea that a progressive manager like LVG will get the most out of him. As it stands, he and quite a few others haven't been performing at the level we need with any sort of consistency. The reasons for that have been done to death but unless he improves he'll eventually move on, as there probably won't be a shortage of offers.
 
Ekeke said:
He was our best wideplayer for a couple of months, were you in a coma?
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Just responding to the comments made in this thread which are going back to wanting him in the number 10 role.

I've not been that impressed with his displays out wide and saying he has been our best wide player has to be seen relative to the form of the other players who have been average to bad and the entire season as a whole. I've not been impressed with our contrbutions from out wide for the last two seasons and think we will see some serious investment there this summer and players leaving and I also don't think he fits what LVG is going to seek from wide players.

BTW - Is it hard to not comment on a post without being a total obnoxious bellend. Every post I see from you come across as a complete cock and you never either respond to the entire post, just reply selectively.
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
No need to scapegoat anyone but I think he's one of the most dispensable players in the squad.

He simply hasn't shown anything which sets him apart from anyone else in any position in his time here.

Yes yes Valencia and Young are worse footballers but if there is some kind of 'overhaul' I for one wouldn't rue the day that Kagawa leaves. He's very very disappointing because of the reputation he came in with.

I'm sure there are arguments both ways but these modern 'number 10s' or CAMs elsewhere all seem far more flexible than him. Nasri, Silva, Isco, Oscar, Gotze, Coutinho, Eriksen and I'm sure I could reel off a lot more names if I had an agenda.

Seems to me he's the type of player who thrives when everyone else is playing well rather than the player who can instigate things to make those around him play well.

Nothing against him, but I don't think he has the mentality for it. If he moves, I can't say I'd be disappointed.
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Pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
 
I don't think football hipsters will ever forgive United for Kagawa not working out. He's got skills but isn't a good fit and sees unwilling to make himself a good fit.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
If Robben is not a proper wide player, what would you categorise him as?

He's much closer to it than Kagawa is.
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I'd see him as more of an inside forward than a proper winger. Same with Kagawa as they both like to cut in from the wing, although their play style is nothing alike besides that. Sorry to use a FM term but it's the best way to describe how I see them.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
Just responding to the comments made in this thread which are going back to wanting him in the number 10 role.

I've not been that impressed with his displays out wide and saying he has been our best wide player has to be seen relative to the form of the other players who have been average to bad and the entire season as a whole. I've not been impressed with our contrbutions from out wide for the last two seasons and think we will see some serious investment there this summer and players leaving and I also don't think he fits what LVG is going to seek from wide players.

BTW - Is it hard to not comment on a post without being a total obnoxious bellend. Every post I see from you come across as a complete cock and you never either respond to the entire post, just reply selectively.
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Agreed, its of course relative to our other wide players who werent doing enough. He was quite good in this patch of form that finally came, it wasn't great.

Dont like it? Dont ignore periods of time just because it doesn't suit your argument.
 
acnumber9 said:
Everywhere else has him at 3. No surprise why you chose the more flattering statistic. Mata's assists haven't come from set pieces to my memory so it doesn't matter. It just means that he has another string to his bow and the promise of even more goals created.

There is a reason that Mata has been given those opportunities and Kagawa hasn't. The managers haven't just picked Mata because he's a nice guy. He really does score way more goals. He's already matched what Kagawa has managed in 2 years. These are facts, not subjective opinion.

I'm not sure how much faith I'll put in how excellent he was in all those games given your propensity for exaggerating everything Kagawa has ever done.
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Way to completely dodge all my good arguments by trying to turn it personal:lol:
 
Kagawa's problem today wasn't that he was played out of position it was that he played crap. He didn't play well. He had a bad game of football. Nothing to do with the players around him or the formation or whatever. I also strongly object to the out of position thing, he was in centre midfield, that should be a great position for him to get on the ball and try to dictate things but he couldn't do that today for whatever reason.

He is obviously a talented player and if Van Gaal wants to try to change the way we play I really hope he stays but he needs to up his performances a lot
 
No one can plausibly deny that Kagawa is a very solid footballer, but we have a bounty of 10s and the other two are simply better.

Does it make sense for Shinji to be a squad man behind Rooney and Mata? Probably not.

Simple as that.
 
Mad Winger said:
Way to completely dodge all my good arguments by trying to turn it personal:lol:
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All your good points? Matter of opinion. They read like excuses. Poor ones at that. Kagawa has started 45 games for Utd. He's scored in 4 of them. Mata has done likewise in 13. If that isn't significantly better then I'm not sure what would be.

Questioning how objective you are isn't turning it personal. Unless you also thought you were turning it personal when you suggested that if I didn't agree with you that I had an agenda.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He made their XI, to be fair.

Of course, so did Scott Parker in the PL once.
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Hang on, why were we led to believe he was Bundersliga player of the season then? Also Dortmund almost won the CL without him...he couldn't have been that important.
 
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