This. On the other end of the spectrum, the players who don't have intelligence nor positional discipline will be the ones suffering under LVG.
Shinji Kagawa
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This. On the other end of the spectrum, the players who don't have intelligence nor positional discipline will be the ones suffering under LVG.
I've always been an ardent defender of Kagawa's, but have to admit he looked really poor today. The worst I've ever seen him play actually. Granted he was playing out of position, but what was really worrying was it seemed he as if couldn't even do any of simple stuff that usually comes second nature to him. Keeping possession and his short passing are Kagawa trademarks even during his "quiet" games. He was shite at both. Always thought that in the right system he'd be ace, but for the first time I've got doubts. Such a shadow of the player he once was, even going back to his first season. Afraid that playing him in his preferred #10 role, might not be enough to reverse this funk he's in, taking into account how far he's regressed. Still hoping that Van Gaal can get him back to his Dortmund best mind you, as I feel he could still play an important part to United's success and can offer an alternative to Mata. But if he doesn't sort himself out this summer, he needs to move elsewhere for his own sake. As others have mentioned, talented player but might be the wrong fit here at United. 
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I don't think playing him on the left means we're playing him out of position. He does play there for Japan, to be fair.
Worrying part is that even if you take into consideration that CM is not his natural position, thus movement, defending part of the game and positioning can be excused, his passing is way off. Yesterday it wasn't really visible because he's hardly had any contact but the previous game his passing was woeful, almost as if he's forgotten how to pass when put into the middle.
And yet the previous month, arguably our best player. Two games at the end of a lost season does not erase a player's quality.
Only Nani and Young havent been better than Kagawa. So you'd be picking the lesser option for no reason. Nani has had trouble performing on the left anyway, if he has any future at the club at all its in his best position on the right where he found some consistant form for a year and a half. Even that seems unlikely at present.
Yes after we solve our cm, right wing, left back and right back issues we should be looking at another proper left sided winger. But thats well into the future, for now we have someone who is 7/10 while other areas of the team are 5's. And even if we signed the best left winger in the world to come straight into the team, Kagawa would be a good backup.
Shinji is quite crap as a CM isnt he? Hopefully he'll have a good world cup and returns to his Dortmund form.
FTFY
He just seem so apathetic at this point.
I really hope LVG finds a way to get the best out of him. But if he is committed to width and if Mata is going to be the main man in the middle maybe its not to be.
What happened to his first touch? His second touch almost always needed to be a tackle which he promptly shied away from yesterday.
If he's happy to be a squad to be a squad player then I don't see too much harm in keeping him here. From what his agent keeps saying, he seems to be happy with his role here and wants to stay.
Needs t go back to BVB to revive his career. Looks bereft of any confidence right now.
Shocker yesterday, in fact his worst performance in a United shirt. He may want to stay but I think he would jump at the chance of going back to Dortmund should Klopp want him. I think we need a player like Marco Reus for sure, we could offer cash and Kagawa and then pray he doesn't mind missing out on CL football?
We need to get rid of turd like Young and our favorite inconsistent annoyance Nani but I doubt Dortmund would want them!
We need to get rid of turd like Young and our favorite inconsistent annoyance Nani but I doubt Dortmund would want them!
Wasn't sure whether to start a new thread... but this is Kagawa reflecting on this season and some of his performances so thought it was appropriate for in here.
Again the most outstanding thing about him at Dortmund, which Klopp mentioned when he talked about Kagawa at United was that he'd join up with the striker from deeper positions and score goals
As Kagawa mentions, not a single goal this season is both disappointing and obviously going to knock his confidence. When you're used to scoring goals and suddenly you cant find a single one its got to be tough and effect you.
At the same time much lesser players can get on the scoresheet once in a while, its on him to make it happen. But when he does get one expect to see him play more confidently and probably go on a bit of a scoring run picking one up every couple of matches for a time
As Kagawa mentions, not a single goal this season is both disappointing and obviously going to knock his confidence. When you're used to scoring goals and suddenly you cant find a single one its got to be tough and effect you.
At the same time much lesser players can get on the scoresheet once in a while, its on him to make it happen. But when he does get one expect to see him play more confidently and probably go on a bit of a scoring run picking one up every couple of matches for a time
His lack of goals is one of the most surprising things about his United career so far. He looked a really cool and clinical finisher at Dortmund, but we've seen none of it here. He's scored a lot of goals for Japan too.
New manager will improve things ten fold. Moyes never seemed to rate Kagawa, and Kagawa never fitted into his style of play. If Van Gaal comes in, I think we'll see a huge improvement from Shinji.
I see a lot of people just slating Kagawa due to yesterday performance, and i was like them during the first ten minutes, because his timing was totally off.
But then i realised that except Vidic, Smalling and Evra everyone was very poor, there was no synergy in the midfield, it was like each of our midfielders were trying to play a different game.
And Since Mata and Kagawa aren't natural central midfielders we can't except them to be comfortable in a midfield who doesn't work in the first place.
But then i realised that except Vidic, Smalling and Evra everyone was very poor, there was no synergy in the midfield, it was like each of our midfielders were trying to play a different game.
And Since Mata and Kagawa aren't natural central midfielders we can't except them to be comfortable in a midfield who doesn't work in the first place.
Difficult to predict what's gonna happen. The road to Dortmund seems to be blocked, and Shinji may not want to return anyway; it could look like he's lost face and failed in the PL.
United may want to keep him for the Asia business though. Don't know whether the numbers circulating were true but around Jan or Feb this year, Shinji's shirts were among the top 10 selling one in PL.
United may want to keep him for the Asia business though. Don't know whether the numbers circulating were true but around Jan or Feb this year, Shinji's shirts were among the top 10 selling one in PL.
Not if he's not getting picked.
Have to say, there's a lot of "emperor's new clothes" types in regard to Kagawa - people are so desperate for him to succeed that they seem prepared to let things slide that other players would get slaughtered for. I'm sure he played very well at Dortmund but he jsust hasnt operfromed anywhere near the standard he needs to in order to a be a United regular.
I sympathise with him in that he isn;t getting picked in he preferred position - but that it what it is. He isnt better than Rooney or Mata as a 10 anyway. Sadly, he just doesnt have the pace or trickery to play wide and other than a handful of fairly impressive performances he just doesnt produce enough good performances on a regular enough basis over his time here so far. Regardless of how much the fans might want him to succeed that surely has to be the basis on which players are judged.
I think we missed a trick this year with him. We've been shit, so why didn't we just build the team around him for 10 games. See what he really can do. If he'd not shown enough then it would put this to bed. Couldn't have been any worse.
Nobody has played well this season though, so to say we should get rid on the basis of this season is folly.
It'll be interesting to see what LvG does with him, Rooney and Mata. Surely at least one will leave?
Nobody has played well this season though, so to say we should get rid on the basis of this season is folly.
It'll be interesting to see what LvG does with him, Rooney and Mata. Surely at least one will leave?
I think there are two main reasons for this.
1. Last season we did in fact get a taste of what Kagawa offers. He wasn't brilliant, but he was still good. He was also improving a lot in the last few games of the season, clearly showing us that he was going to have a bright future for us. Most people on this forum, Kagawa fan or not, had Kagawa in their first XI. Then came Moyes, and Kagawa turned into a totally different player. Many people(myself included) felt that it made more sense to blame Moyes and our football under him, rather than blame Kagawa. And many still do!
Look what happened the moment he started playing consistently and we threw Mata(an actual playmaker) into the hole instead of Rooney. Kagawa was voted POTM on this forum.
2. As brutal as it sounds: failure to successfully implement Kagawa into the team = failure to play good football. Think about it for a second: can you remember a single GOOD United performance where Kagawa was on the field, but had an average game? I'd be shocked if you can remember such a game, because there's never been a game like that. The closest is Leverkusen at home, but even then Kagawa had a fairly decent game, even though he wasn't one of our top performers.
What does this mean? It means that when the team plays well, Kagawa plays well. Usually really well.
And I know: it's nice to have a player like Ronaldo, who has the ability to make the difference on bad days as well. But surely, there has to room for catalysts like Kagawa as well? You know, players who make others play better? Dortmund certainly found room for Kagawa, and yes, even for Dortmund Kagawa was not likely to make the difference on bad days.
To me, it seems like a loser mentality to want players who can make the difference on bad days. Why? Because a team of winners should really only have a handful of bad days per season. If having a bad day is a regular occurence, then we're doing something wrong. If we can't make a catalyst like Kagawa work out, we're doing something wrong.
You could easily construe that as Utd play well = Kagawa plays well. Where has he been when we weren't actually playing good football and needed him to step up?
Of course. But there are many players who remain fairly average even on good days. Kagawa is not like that. The moment we move around well and play fluid, attacking football, he awakens. It's no wonder that his best performances also have been in United's best performances.
And like I said: Kagawa is not an individualist who makes the difference on a bad day. That's not who we signed from Dortmund, and it's unfair to expect that from him. You might as well expect him to suddenly start scoring screamers from way outside the box. It's not who he is.
He hasn't earned the privilege of having a club like United build a team around him. Especially when we have options that have shown far more than him in that position.
Kagawa seems to be the only player at the club that fans think talent alone gives him a free pass. Look at the Nani thread in comparison for example.
Not what I said.
Though I do expect a Utd player to not be completely reliant on everyone else to have a good performance on the field, rather than having to constantly listen to excuses about how good he is if we do this and this and this for him, and play this way, set up this way, play him here, wax his balls there, etc. We're talking about one of the biggest clubs in the world here, and for the last two years I've heard nothing but excuses and our style not suiting him and that we should look to change how we play to suit him. Nonsense, he should be the one sorting himself out so he can play for us, just look at Mata and you can see the difference.
Kagawa's a cracking little player and I'd like to see how he does under LvG but this constant tirade of shite being spewed about him from you and others is getting tiring, if he wants to make it here, he needs to sort his own shit out, not wait for the manager to suddenly decide to set up the team the exact way that suits him.
And if i can add something, Kagawa is not a playmaker (#10), you don't build the team around him, he his the Muller type of player, a catalyst, you use him when you already have a team, with Japan or Dortmund he wasn't the nucleus of the team.
If you don't have a team, Kagawa is going to be useless.
I don't think Kagawa was ever likely to be one of the main players to "step up" it's just not his game.
He doesn't take free kicks or penalties or corners, he's not a skilful winger that goes past 3/4 players, thats not his game.
Other players will have more chances to make a more critical impact.
Kagawa is effective at pass and move, link up play, finding small pockets of space to stretch defenders and delivering the final pass.
His work will go underrated because it's often not featured on the highlights reel, and more often than not unless you're scoring and assisting, or at least tackling hard - most fans won't pay attention to what you do.
It was different at Dortmund because Klopp rated him so highly that he built the team around him, he won't get that here so his role will be more understated.
He doesn't take free kicks or penalties or corners, he's not a skilful winger that goes past 3/4 players, thats not his game.
Other players will have more chances to make a more critical impact.
Kagawa is effective at pass and move, link up play, finding small pockets of space to stretch defenders and delivering the final pass.
His work will go underrated because it's often not featured on the highlights reel, and more often than not unless you're scoring and assisting, or at least tackling hard - most fans won't pay attention to what you do.
It was different at Dortmund because Klopp rated him so highly that he built the team around him, he won't get that here so his role will be more understated.
Well, despite his lack of ability to make a difference on bad days, he was obviously good enough for Dortmund, a team that has been vastly superior to us in recent history. So we can't really play the "United card" here. United was a step up only in terms of fame and money. In terms of football quality, it was a step down for Kagawa.
I'm not gonna start the Mata discussion all over again. I'm still of the opinion that Mata is only a shadow of himself at his best, and that Kagawa would be able to play equally well(minus the set pieces) if he was allowed to start game after game in the no.10 position, without suffering from long injury spells.
Talk about missing the point. I never said he wasn't good enough for us, obviously he is, difference is that Klopp built his entire team around him to suit him at Dortmund, that simply won't happen here, it was never likely to happen here, and he needs to start showing how good he is in a system that isn't build to suit his every need.
Louis will identify the best players and make a system that fits. Most important is the philosophy however the system can be flexible, I wouldn't put it past him playing a 4141 with Mata and Kagawa behind RVP with Rooney asked to play wide, he could implement this system because he relies on possession based football therefore although defensively vulnerable, he doesn't expect the opposition to have the ball too much.
He would need to sign a top defensive midfielder to sit in front of the back four.
A lot depends on who we sign. Whatever happens though Kagawa will be a quality squad player therefore we should give him another season and see if he is to LVG's liking.
There is also an argument to be made that Klopp has implemented a system where the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts.
I don't think that Dortmund team was build around him. He suited their system and excelled in it
There is also an argument to be made that it's easier for attacking players to play in the Bundesliga.
He was definitely the focal point of their attack.
You mean the position or the player?
You could argue Kagawa has now had 3 managers at United and I think he STILL divides opinion. Surely it eventually comes down to it being the player and not the management, we can't keep blaming the manager if they don't survive and the player does.
I won't debate about whether Kagawa is good enough or not with you because obviously you have a strong opinion on that and it's fair enough. I think stuff like that isn't really right though. Sometimes a player doesn't work out and it's not the clubs fault, it's not thep layers either it's just the way it will be. There's plenty of premier league flops. I'm sure Kagawa was good at Dortmund and he's shown it in glimpses at United. If we were to get rid of him tomorrow though I don't think it's this big tragedy of Man Utd and a "loser mentality" it just means the club feels that another player coming in would be more impactful, there's more than just 1 way of playing football.
What makes you think that? Or ist because he played in a central position? Is every team build around it's no10?
I think that the focals points of their attacks were, in that order, Lewandowski, Gotze and Kuba-Kagawa on the same level.
Of course not. We built teams around Rooney and Ronaldo, after all. Like I said, he was the focal point for their attacking play, for the most part. Maybe "building the team to suit him" is a bit far, but whenever I watched Dortmund I got the impression that he was Klopp's favourite player and that he set up his team to get the best out of him more and more. Obviously you can counter-argue that by saying that because Kagawa was so good, Klopp then started to make him the focal point more and more, it's hard to know.
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