Their driving force maybe?
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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I dint say he was good, I said he was their best player.
No not really..
Mad Winger you told me Kagawa was good for Japan so I put a tenner on him scoring first and I get THAT?
You owe me a tenner.
You owe me a tenner.
Kagawa is Japan's Wayne Rooney.
He was poor last night, still feel van Gaal will utilise him well though.
Nope, Kagawa didnt get an assist last night.
Not only, they were out-dribbled as well. Also Ivory had much better control of the ball, possession.
Rooney even by not playing well, still played much better than Kagawa did against tougher opponents.
Probably the most over-rated player in our recent history. I love the guy but he's our Sahin....only Liverpool shipped him back to Dortmund.
When?
Didn't Kagawa play really well against Bayern whereas Rooney was completely useless against them? I don't think we played a tougher team last season than Bayern. I don't rate Kagawa as highly as some do here, but he still is a very good player. Let's also not forget he hardly got any game time under Moyes for ages, and when he got it he almost immediately played well in the league when he linked up with Mata and was really impressive against Bayern.
You can pick almost any game, Arsenal's one, Bayern at home etc.
Rooney in Munich was clearly injured, it was even visible by the way he run. As for Kagawa i don't think he was even good against Bayern, never mind "really impressive". What is it he has done really? Some defensive work? He was playing in AM's role/position, yet he failed to register even one chance created. That's the main thing, i mean Kagawa creates less than chance a game in PL and in CL. It could be okay if he'd actually scored, but then he has 0 goals a whole season, which is embarrassing even if he spent a lot of time playing on the left.
Kagawa is a good enough, but whether he can perform on United's level and in PL is matter for debate. As there is a clear evidence that's unlikely.
I think he's the most likely number 10 to be sold. It hasn't world out, you could get some decent money for him.
Whilst he had a poor season, and I also think we might be best cutting our losses. I think it is unjustified to say he didn't create for us in the UCL, especially in the group stage he was our most creative player (even if the other players failed to convert the chances)
He has 0 goals because he seems to shit himself when a scoring opportunity arises. He basically loses complete balance when someone approaches him or when he has a scoring opportunity. The premier league is too physically demanding for Kagawa. However, this could also be a major confidence issue as like Nani, he needs games, touch, instinct. I want to give him one more season under LvG but i would not be surprised if we got rid.
Seems like there's a lot of blind faith with him.
A great player for Dortmund and I think one of the players who benefitted most from Klopp. Has generally looked out of place since he's been here. I want to see if van Gaal sees anything in him and can utilize him because I still think he has the ability to be a useful player for us. If van Gaal doesn't fancy him then there will surely be plenty of teams willing to pay a good price for him. If he's sold it would be one of those "oh well, unfortunate it didn't work out" kind of moments. Would be nice if he became useful but if he doesn't and is sold it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Sorry, against Bayern, especially in Munich, almost everything good went through Kagawa. Rooney also completely ignored him when he was in a much better position to score, but instead gave a pathetic shot himself. I don't buy the excuse anymore with Rooney, either he is injured or out of form or out of position, when will the excuses stop? But for some reason, when Kagawa doesn't play for 2 months or Plays out of position and then gets some minutes all of a sudden ppl start blaming him for everything without considering that he, too needs a bit of game time to do well and that that privilege should not only be given to Rooney.
Rooney does not need excuses, he scored 2 goals and made 5 assists, being our post potent player in terms of goal involvement. So his contribution is there to see.
Now what has Kagawa done exactly? We do know that he failed to register even goal or assist in CL. So what do we have? A good interception against Leverkusen away and a good pass to Rooney. What else? It does not really get much more pathetic than that.
First of all, Kagawa did nothing at all worth of note in the home game. So the only game against Bayern we can discuss is an away one.
So if "almost everything good went through Kagawa" explain to me how come Kagawa could not even create a single chance for his team mates in this game? Our goal also had little to do with Kagawa, nothing at all in fact, he just stood there and watched.
There's a lot of blind faith with Kagawa.
No, i don't think he was. In fact i am quite positive he was not. Converted chances are assists, chances are passes, crosses etc that led to a shot, does not matter if striker has scored or not. Not the most overwhelming stat that shows absolutely everything, but still a useful data to see the point. In CL Kagawa has only 6 chances created, all of them at group stage, 6 matches and two subs. Valencia created 11 chances in 9+1 games. Giggs 10 in 6+1. Rooney 18 in 9 games, he benefited from set-pieces, so we can cut this number to 12-13. So Kagawa lacks behind many of our players. I think it's his genuine problem. While good at controlling the ball and spraying passes around, Kagawa for an attacking player has a very dull edge so to speak. He is not decisive in his final ball delivery. He does put some good passes, crosses in that fail to register as a chances due to many reasons, but ultimately he just not doing in enough. The same problem with his dribbling. It's not like he can't dribble. I mean he does it but only in the middle of the park. When he gets the ball in dangerous areas close to a box, he often fails to beat his man and create real chance for himself or teammate.
For all his good skills Kagawa is just way to timid, if you are an AM, you need to be much more bold, decisive.
Brendan Rodgers was a fool and used Sahin in the no.10 role when he was clearly a deep lying playmaker.
There is also a lot of stupidity in the other side, Kagawa has underperformed that's a fact, he doesn't deserve to be a starter that's a fact, but asking for him to quit the club or slating him at every opportunity is stupid, he is still a good player not the world class player that we hoped but he is still good.
And he didn't cost us a lot 14m-15m(?), we can use him as a squad player and just stop always slating him.
That would just ruin a quality players career, either use him or ship him out.
I'm of the opinion that it hasn't worked out. All clubs bring in good players and for whatever reason it doesn't work. Kagawa at United is one for me who hasn't worked out. He's not in the Fellaini and Young category of rubbish.
Not necessarily this condition is not eternal, he is the one who is supposed to take every opportunities, someone like Van Gaal will give him chances, if he doesn't take them it's is own fault.
If he asks to leave the club then we can accept, but why release a player who can be useful and is quality.
I'm only saying we should sell Kagawa if Van Gaal has no plans for him. Like Moyes he clearly didn't rate Kagawa which is why he hardly got a game early on in the season and had it not have been for pressure from fans/media I doubt he barely would have featured.
I understand but i think that situation could change with Van Gaal, that's why i don't think he should go, this summer. Unless we can use him to purchase Koke, Kovacic or Hummels.
That's what I'm hoping for. Van Gaal will modernize our playing style which can only help Kagawa improve for us, I'm hoping that rumor which said he and Mata are players he likes is true.
Player swap deals rarely happen and I don't think Klopp despite rating him as one of the best his worked with will bring him back to Dortmund while Mikitaryian is their.
It's not necessarily a swap, i heard that those clubs could be interested in the player we could sold him cheap to one of them, and in exchange we have a price lowered for one of the players next season.
Atletico would be a strange move, he'd suit their pressing system but he lacks that strength and power Simeone loves also they usually play with two forwards.
I'm not even going to go into why the stat you are using is a myth.
I will give you an example though, Smalling scored a goal against Bayer Leverkusun (I think it was). Rooney got the assist as he made the final pass for the goal. The chance however was created by Kagawa, as in his action was the one that opened up the defence.
Another example is Scholes who didn't get high assist stats but started most of our attacking moves.
Anyway to say he didn't create chances in the UCL matches is just wrong, and I don't need to look at flawed stats to know that.
Even Moyes praised Kagawa's performances in the UCL (during the groups)
I'm not a Kagawa supporter of such, like I said I think we should cut our losses and sell him, however downplaying his performances in the UCL group stages is wrong
I don't know what Simeone wants to do but it seems that he tried to have him on loan.
Yep I remember hearing that, he'd thrive in La Liga, though not sure with Atletico.
OK.Well, if only goals and assists count, then why do ppl bother watching the game? They can go on Transfermarkt afterwards and still argue how good Rooney was and how shite Kagawa was just based on stats.
What did Rooney do? Against Leverkusen the whole team played well. Against Olympiakos in the 2nd leg he did well, but so did other players. Against Bayern however we could have as well played with 10 men, especially that performance in the 2nd leg. That's exactly the reason why Fergie dropped him against Madrid.
Anyway, end of discussion for me, thank god we now have a manger who rates good link up play and doesn't just look at some stats like the stat-obsessed English media.
Not only, but they are the most important contribution attacking players make in the game. I will ask you one more time, if Kagawa played well against Munich away, tell me what good things in attack he actually did? What exactly has he delivered?
Well, if only goals and assists count, then why do ppl bother watching the game? They can go on Transfermarkt afterwards and still argue how good Rooney was and how shite Kagawa was just based on stats.
What did Rooney do? Against Leverkusen the whole team played well. Against Olympiakos in the 2nd leg he did well, but so did other players. Against Bayern however we could have as well played with 10 men, especially that performance in the 2nd leg. That's exactly the reason why Fergie dropped him against Madrid.
Anyway, end of discussion for me, thank god we now have a manger who rates good link up play and doesn't just look at some stats like the stat-obsessed English media.
Rooney played dreadful i agree, but he was great in other matches, including Munich at OT where he was our best player in attack, apart from actual assist via corner albeit, he was the one who made that great pass to Welbeck for his one-on-one run. Now has Kagawa doe anything similar in the away game?
Lets see how Kagawa plays under LVG, i think if he bottles another season, excuses about him would really run dry.
I've mentioned this exact example actually in the post above, but not addressed to you though. But i've also said that Kagawa does put some good passes, crosses in that fail to register as a chances due to many reasons, meaning exactly that.
Lets talk about game and chances that were created by Kagawa. You say Kagawa was a creative player in CL. That would imply that he creates a lot, right? Right. So chances created stat does not support this perception. You think it's because the stat don't always show a true picture, like with that Smalling goal. Fair enough. But if that's true then you would have no problem to point out other good chances or goals that Kagawa helped create with his passing or dribbling (so first goal against Leverkusen does not count as Kagawa did a pretty simple pass to Giggs, though was good in defence with that interception). But these moments must not be registered as a chances created. So cross to Chicharito against Sociedad does not count either. So how many moments when Kagawa "opened up the defence" do you recall exactly?
Because my understanding is that this Smalling moment is actually the only one, or maybe there is two. So they are exceptions that do not skew the original picture. And most players have them. For example, Rooney did not register an assist for Bayer own goal, although it was his great delivery that made that goal happen. But anyway it's about Kagawa and him being able to split the defence.
That's not another example. Scholes had a completely different role to Kagawa's, he played deep as a DM even, well a deep lying playmaker. So had Kagawa played in that role i would use other metrics for him. But Kagawa plays in advanced role and his job is to create chances, not keep the flow of the game, like in case of Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley.
He did, just not as many to call him a creative player. I mean Valencia also did great in CL and he created more as well.
Just re-watch the group stage matches, and forget about stats from a website.
I am extremely disappointed that it hasn't worked out for Shinji but I think there are some people here that blindly have faith in him. Had he been a Young or a Fellaini, people would instantly be less tolerant. I think people have a soft spot for him as he was a really good player for Dortmund and most people have a man-crush fascination with that team.
Most of Kagawa's supporters pick out games where he played well, but as there were so few games that he did play well, I think it's easy to remember them. In terms of him as a player and his style, he doesn't really bring anything to the table or do anything that Rooney and Mata can't do.
Sad to say it, but might as well get rid of him now before his value deteriorates further
Most of Kagawa's supporters pick out games where he played well, but as there were so few games that he did play well, I think it's easy to remember them. In terms of him as a player and his style, he doesn't really bring anything to the table or do anything that Rooney and Mata can't do.
Sad to say it, but might as well get rid of him now before his value deteriorates further
I made this video a week ago since there is a discussion about chances:
Don't just re-watch the group stages of the Champions League - watch the subsequent fixtures (Olympiakos and Bayern Munich), too.
Also, a chance is a shot assist - it's unreal at how many overrate the stat here to make a point.
Don't just re-watch the group stages of the Champions League - watch the subsequent fixtures (Olympiakos and Bayern Munich), too.
Also, a chance is a shot assist - it's unreal at how many overrate the stat here to make a point.
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