Should Wenger be sacked?

[NoPace]

He doesn't deserve to be sacked so I vote NO.




1. It raises the question: is he the single decision-maker when it comes to recruit?

2.

- Varane is very big mistake IMO. He was 18 years old and played for Lens. Obvious he was a great talent. He moved for 10 millions of euros
- Kanté should have been a smart and cheap acquisition: Marseille and Lyon were extremely interested. It means he had a great reputation before he moved to Leicester.
- Mahrez? You can't blame Wenger because his progress was unpredictable.
- Dembélé? You can't blame Wenger because the competition was extremely tough.

In the early 20O0s, he was in a position to capture all the best French players (promising talents or confirmed players). Now, the competition is tougher than ever. Juventus stole Coman for instance.

3. Monaco would be the perfect place if Jardim left the club. Wenger coached that club in the early 90s.

Wenger, the most successful French manager in English, German, Italian or Spanish league history, should make the difference in the recruiting of a Dembele or Varane. Similarly, someone like Bakayoko who would fecking stroll into the Arsenal midfield, or Mbappe, who might be concerned about stagnating his growth but wants a huge move and bigger wages than Monaco would give, should be gettable. Have Thierry Henry call and get it done.

I wonder if Wenger would be a good bridge for one of the great Italian sides struggling lately, like one of the Milan sides. People rave about AC Milan's young talent. Maybe Wenger could be good at working with them for 2-3 years until they're ready for a ruthless type to come in and have them really compete for the league.

 

[NoPace]

That isn't all on Wenger, that's on the owner and chairman. Managers don't deal with contracts and financial side of the club, he gives names of who needs and then the chairman decides weather or not to pursue the player(s). Wenger is too blame on the football side as it is clear he is out of his time because the game has become more tactical now. Even though Wenger does play nice attacking football, there comes a time when your team needs to be more athletic & defensive than stylish & attacking and Wenger just cant get his head round that side of the game. The club as a whole from the owner to the manager have no motivation to change, to invest and strengthen from the previous season and that's why they still hit the same level season after season.

So Wenger has some blame but its not fair to put the whole blame on him from lack of investment into the squad which is the owners and chairman's duty to do so. Football has turned into a business and most players are more interested in moving to clubs that offer more money, its sad to say that but it's a reality that we have to deal with and Arsenal hasnt dealt with that and its costing them dearly to achieve big prizes like the premier league and champions league.

A large part of Wenger's success was about buying talent below price. Monchi does it over and over at Sevilla. N'Zonzi or Krychowiak would have, for instance, been excellent additions for Arsenal at reasonable prices.

Wenger's never going to be Rafa Benitez, but he used to be Monchi and a solid attacking manager who built sides to be effective flat track bullies, and now he's just 50% of the former and 80% of the latter. It's a shame, I'm a fan.

 

[AndyJ1985]

So basically he's saying it's the taking part that counts. Making up the numbers each season is hardly something to shout about.

 

[SirAF]

I don't want him to leave. He changed English football for the better and will go down as one of the best managers of the premier league era. Maybe arsenal's best ever manager. He's struggling, and perhaps Arsenal could do with a change, but I have respect for the man and it will be a sad day for the league when he calls it quits.

Absolutely. I mean, he's one out of only three managers that have won the PL more than once. I bloody hate arsenal and their fans, but I can't help but admire Wenger - although his shortcomings for the last decade have made that considerably easier

 

[Ecstatic]

Wenger, the most successful French manager in English, German, Italian or Spanish league history, should make the difference in the recruiting of a Dembele or Varane. Similarly, someone like Bakayoko who would fecking stroll into the Arsenal midfield, or Mbappe, who might be concerned about stagnating his growth but wants a huge move and bigger wages than Monaco would give, should be gettable. Have Thierry Henry call and get it done.

I wonder if Wenger would be a good bridge for one of the great Italian sides struggling lately, like one of the Milan sides. People rave about AC Milan's young talent. Maybe Wenger could be good at working with them for 2-3 years until they're ready for a ruthless type to come in and have them really compete for the league.

Varane - he did prefer to join PSG in 2011 but rejected the PSG offer because he was expecting a call from the f*** former PSG coach Antoine Kouambouaré who never called him. Zidane made the difference by calling him many times. So, yes, it could be viewed as a mistake of Wenger.

Ousmane Dembélé was the target of all the clubs - He appreciates the style of play of Dortmund. Aubameyang called him many times. We don't know if Wenger worked hard to get him. The deal Dembélé is hard to analyse. The president of Rennes is the shareholder of Puma, the sponsor of Dortmund...

Bakayoko - yeah, we could say it is the job of Grimandi (Arsenal scout) to identify this kind of opportunities. Not really a success at Rennes but smart gamble from Monaco.

Mbappe - he joined Monaco at the age of 14 but he played for INS Clairefontaine (famous national academy). I don't know if Arsenal targets players under 15.

 

[Ecstatic]

A large part of Wenger's success was about buying talent below price. Monchi does it over and over at Sevilla. N'Zonzi or Krychowiak would have, for instance, been excellent additions for Arsenal at reasonable prices.

Wenger's never going to be Rafa Benitez, but he used to be Monchi and a solid attacking manager who built sides to be effective flat track bullies, and now he's just 50% of the former and 80% of the latter. It's a shame, I'm a fan.

Yeah.

Monchi is brilliant: Mata, Dani Alves, Krychowiak, Gameiro...

PSG tried to hire him last summer but he didn't want to 'betray' Sevilla

 

[bleedred]

Our darkest hour in the past 20 years was under Moyes and Arsenal couldnt manage to score against us even then....Which is a damning indictment of his failure in the recent years.

 

[giorno]

PSG tried to hire him last summer but he didn't want to 'betray' Sevilla

Actually, it's sevilla who didn't allow him to leave. He'll leave this summer after his contract ends

 

[lysglimt]

He doesn't deserve to be sacked - that is part of the problem. But as I have said before - if you are gonna sack Wenger, you need to know (or at least with high certainty expect - to do better)

But looking at Arsenals Squad - how many available managers would realistically improve Arsenal enough to fight for the title ?

 

[Ecstatic]

Actually, it's sevilla who didn't allow him to leave. He'll leave this summer after his contract ends

As you know, a contract can be broken sometimes

He has probably 'values' , a good man

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Actually, it's sevilla who didn't allow him to leave. He'll leave this summer after his contract ends

IF thats true then that is the signing I would want most. I would even happily accept Wenger for another year if it meant we got Monchi and Wenger had zero say in transfers.

 

[sunama]

From the perspective of a MUFC:
Wenger should stay for at least another decade.
And when he eventually retires, he should be replaced with D.Moyes, who should manage Arsenal for the next 20 years, until he also retires.

 

[giorno]

As you know, a contract can be broken sometimes

He has probably 'values' , a good man

Not really. He handed in his resignation, the board rejected it and told him they weren't going to let him go before his contract ended. Only chance he could have left earlier was if the club that wanted him paid Sevilla a fee to terminate the contract

 

[red4ever 79]

Will never be sacked. THink he will walk though

 

[Sylar]

1) Arsenal fires him.
2) Pochettino leaves Spurs for Barca.
3) Spurs hire Wenger.
4) Arsenal
5) Arsenal TV Meltdown

4 is fixed

 

[simonhch]

Arsenal are the most consistently mediocre elite team in the world. They haven't challenged for the title since 2004/5. How that can be acceptable is beyond me. They exist purely just to take part at the highest level, but without any pretentions of ever being victorious.

They need to part ways with Wenger, otherwise they will never move forwards. The risk is finishing 5th or lower, but the reward is actually challenging for titles. If you have any ambition, beyond just existing, you have to look to improve.

I hugely respected the man through the late 90's and early/mid 2000's. Because he built some great, winning teams. But ever since he's made a complete mockery of his legacy. 3rd or 4th every season, usually with some embarrassing capitulations along the way. Rubbish.

 

[podurban2]

Yes. 100% IMO.

 

[Raees]

I get what you are saying as well, but I think you are missing some context.

First Chapman has to be tempered with giving Sir Henry Norris a lion's share of credit. Without his money (we were called the Bank of England team then) and his shadiness (briding Arsenal way to promotion to the Premiership) Chapman never would have happened. And ironically it wasn't even Chapman who actually thought of the WM innovation, it was one of his players. So Chapman is a bit overrated historically IMO. Never fancied the WM anyway.

Now you have to fast forward to 1990s. Graham was the one who built the modern foundation, winning the league in historic fashion in 89 then 91 and even bringing the only respectable European trophy we ever won - Cup Winners Cup in 94. But you have to also look at the serious damage done by Graham's mistakes. After his famous bung scandal and its fallout, we had Bruce Rioch and finished 94/95 on 12th spot. This was after a few years of Graham going off a bit dictator and completely alienating many of our flair players (Thomas, Davis, Smith, Limpar). David Dein has to get credit too, but when Wenger first arrived at Arsenal there was absolutely no indication that Arsenal were on the way up. We very easily could have fallen even further down the table at that point and never recovered. c.1995 Blackburn and Newcastle looked like far better bets to challenge United and build on their status.

Also, this is about the only time I will bring money into it but without Wenger, there would have been no Emirates. See, our board made some really bad strategic decisions after the Hillsborough induced stadium retrofits. While you made some astute choices in the hospitality market, Arsenal completely missed the board in 90-91 with the Highbury remodels that left Arsenal very weak in match day revenue in the 1990s. The improvements Wenger made on the pitch leading to the 98 double had a massive effect on Arsenal's finances. Another year or two of Rioch or similar 95-97 and we never would have been challenging your United in that 98-06 time frame. We would have been mid table and probably lost Bergkamp not long after. Also can't underestimate how much the 98-04 era grew our global fanbase. We would have nowhere near the number of world wide fans without that. Again, our global fanbase would probably be Blackburn size.

The modern approach Wenger brought to the club is credited with not just revitalizing and modernizing the team. He brought about the end to the drinking culture that still dominated Arsenal in the mid-1990s before matches and Tony Adams credit those modernizing changes with changing his entire life for the better. His scouting network that brought in the French and French-African players was a coup for English football and really began the trend of the PL clubs looking all around the world for players not just to Dutch and Scandinavian players. These are two massive, massive changes that layed the foundation for Arsenal reaching the status it did. Without these changes we would be

where Newcastle or Blackburn are right now at best.

Is Wenger the only manager that could have modernized Arsenal and paved the foundation 97-06? Maybe not. But he was the one who did it. I will be the first criticize Wenger's mistakes of the last 10 years but you are definitely greatly underestimating the massive impact he has had on Arsenal.

Players can come up with tactical changes all the time, but manager does get some credit for listening and implementing that change. Can you imagine Wenger actually trying to listen to a player who comes up with a way of winning a big game.. seems like he gets more stubborn with each passing year.

Yes the first great foreign manager on these shores and he brought great connections in terms of scouting networks but as the competition increased for foreign players so too has his inability to pick out players who can win titles and not just qualify for CL football. His ability to evaluate players has gone to the dogs.

Also totally get that from a Arsenal perspective he's had a huge impact on you lot, massive and no doubt that rightfully some will say he's the greatest manager you ever had. But with the greatest of respect the greatest manager Arsenal ever had, doesn't mean much outside of England? You're not a club of international significance and therefore in light of his overall achievements.. rebuilding a Arsenal side which was already a well established domestic club and in all fairness was winning league titles within the past 7 years isn't that astonishing an achievement of club building.

Compared to Busby building United post war and you realise that Arsene really pales in comparison. Another thing how many great sides of international significance has Wenger built?

I'd say he's built almost 2 of domestic significance and one of those almost achieved international significance but his sides fell short of winning on the biggest stages.

That isn't enough great team building to warrant being known as one of the greatest club developers of all time.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

That isn't enough great team building to warrant being known as one of the greatest club developers of all time.

I feel you are getting team building and club building a bit mixed up when they aren't entirely the same thing.

For instance, before Wenger arrived Arsenal had been in a tailspin. The infrastructure of the club, both physical and process, was outdated. Highbury was instantly outdated after the 89-91 remodels where somehow they completely lacked foresight and only put a small number of hospitality boxes in one goal end. Baffling lack of foresight. Before Wenger our team captain was a raging alcoholic who could still somehow play blinders while still totally pissed from the night before in an era when that was not the norm on the continent anymore.

What Wenger changed at Arsenal was enormous.
He completely changed the training, nutrition and removed the decades long alcoholic culture. his Bergkamp inspired 442 was really a prototype of modern 4231s (as documented by Zonal Marking even). The massive club changes were credited by Tony Adams among others as pioneering in England at the time. Adams credited it with extending and improving the career of that entire defense. The classic defense Graham built but he let sink into drunken swiss chess in 94/95. While he might be outdated now, his focus on team nutrition, sports science and introducing statistics and biology was absolutely crucial to turning Arsenal around and helping spur the modernization of British football. Oh and thats all with a lack of support from the board. Your marketing department has been light years ahead of ours for two decades. That makes a big difference too.

Also, again economics comes into play when talking about club building even if not team building. Arsene took Arsenal shares from something like £500 a share to £10,000 in his first 10 years. While that won't get fans excited, that is absolutely massive for investors, shareholders, owners. That was through astute management at the time (something he has admittedly lost quite a bit lately). But you are really underestimating how massive his influence was. London Colney, our training ground, and all our modern systems wouldn't exist without Wenger if we had some LMA clown. Emirates was literally built on the back on the economic growth from Wenger. Again, any investor will look at what Wenger did and not even question what I claim about club building. The other faction at the time (Dein wanted Wenger) would have been a disaster. Had Arsenal got a Proper Footballing Man (LMA) after Rioch, it would have been absolute disaster for the club. We would be where Blackburn or Leeds are now.

The complete 180 degree turn in club direction is what modernized Arsenal. Frolm 97-2006 Arsene was absolutely the right man for the job and the influence he had at Arsenal was absolutely every bit as important as Shankly at Liverpool. Wenger set up Arsenal for the modern era in the mid 1990s. He hasn't maximized on the benefits of that, but to undervalue how much he modernized Arsenal 1997-2007 is just not accurate history.

 

[MullerUtd]

Seems inevitable he's leaving at the end of the season. The bookmakers are offering 6/4 on him to still remain as Arsenal manager for the opening game of next season.

 

[Infordin]

Bayern didn't play in the CL in 2007/08

so in some ways, his claim is an understatement...

 

[Infordin]

so only Real Madrid and Arsenal have been in the Champions League every time in the past 20 years, that's actually fairly impressive.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

so only Real Madrid and Arsenal have been in the Champions League every time in the past 20 years, that's actually fairly impressive.

Its like saying Mexico has appeared in more World Cups than Spain, France or Uruguay.

 

[Mike09]

He doesn't deserve to be sacked - that is part of the problem. But as I have said before - if you are gonna sack Wenger, you need to know (or at least with high certainty expect - to do better)

But looking at Arsenals Squad - how many available managers would realistically improve Arsenal enough to fight for the title ?

He had 12 or 13 years to build a squad to win at least a League title. If Arsenal is considered to be a big club then the expectation is winning the league, if they are just a smaller club or just a business club then make profit or money is their main priority.

 

[POF]

I don't really understand the feeling that his position is untenable or it's sad he's ending on a low note. This is the same Arsenal season as he's had for years. They will probably beat Bayern 3-1 in the return leg and go on a strong run to finish 3rd or 4th and be full of optimism for next season.

He absolutely should be sacked if Arsenal want to compete for major titles. Not because of the last few weeks/months but on the evidence of the last 10 years.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Nay. He should resign

 

[Xaviesta]

so only Real Madrid and Arsenal have been in the Champions League every time in the past 20 years, that's actually fairly impressive.

In isolation it is impressive but consider this: Real Madrid could qualify for the semi finals for a 7th straight time this season. As for Arsenal, realistically, there's a 99.8% chance they'll exit the competition in the last 16 for a 7th straight season. Looking at those numbers, Arsenal participate in the competition, Real Madrid contend for the title at the pointy end of the competition.

 

[Adisa]

In isolation it is impressive but consider this: Real Madrid could qualify for the semi finals for a 7th straight time this season. As for Arsenal, realistically, there's a 99.8% chance they'll exit the competition in the last 16 for a 7th straight season. Looking at those numbers, Arsenal participate in the competition, Real Madrid contend for the title at the pointy end of the competition.

Do you want him at Barca?

 

[Balu]

He has completely lost his mind. Arsenal won their only European trophy 2 years before he took over and if he didn't manage in the CL era, but in the old European Cup era with only one team qualifying from each league, which was still the system the season before he took over, his Arsenal side would have played in the CL 3 times not reaching the quarterfinal once. Arsenal's CL runs the season after they won the PL title were truely underwhelming after all.

He makes it sound as if the fans should be happy that they can pay the most expensive ticketprices in football to watch 6 meaningless group games before going out in the first knockout round no matter if they draw an elite side or got lucky with an easy draw. His record in Europe is awful.

 

[Xaviesta]

Do you want him at Barca?

No. Wenger might have been a good appointment at Barcelona a decade or so back, but not now. When his teams are on song and playing well, they're great to watch but it's reasonable for a fan of any top club to want their team to look like they can win significant bits of silverware to go with the attractive football on display. With Arsenal post 2004, they've played some nice football without looking like winning the league. The 2011 League Cup Final and the manner in which they lost that should have set off warning signs, not winning the league last season should have ended his tenure. Mourinho's ''specialist in failure'' comment about Wenger three years felt like it was a cheap shot but it's hard to argue with Mourinho's point. Wenger's time as a manager is up. I'm really hoping we go and get Jorge Sampaoli to replace Luis Enrique. I'm pretty confident Sampaoli would relish the opportunity to manage Barcelona if he was offered the role.

 

[prarek]

Wenger at Barca? Hmm.. you never know. Or if Barca hire Sampaoli then i'd like to see him at Sevilla. Monchi + Wenger could keep Sevilla in CL every season and their fans wouldn't mind that at all. Sevilla have finished top 4 in La Liga only 2 or 3 times in the last 10 years. Wenger did a great job those years when Arsenal were selling their best players every year and transitioned from Highbury to Emirates.

 

[Traub]

In isolation it is impressive but consider this: Real Madrid could qualify for the semi finals for a 7th straight time this season. As for Arsenal, realistically, there's a 99.8% chance they'll exit the competition in the last 16 for a 7th straight season. Looking at those numbers, Arsenal participate in the competition, Real Madrid contend for the title at the pointy end of the competition.

Madrid also had a pretty poor run prior to Mourinho.

It's a brilliant achievement by Wenger to be fair. Having said that, I think Arsenal fans would've rather won the champions league once and missed a few qualifications than what has currently happened.

 

[SteveJ]

Seems inevitable he's leaving at the end of the season. The bookmakers are offering 6/4 on him to still remain as Arsenal manager for the opening game of next season.

Nah, mate, he's doing the usual thing of waiting out bad results & fans' fury in the hope that things improve towards the season's end; then he'll sign the contract. The fact that he himself is now reduced to implying 'be careful what you wish for' should tell him it's time to go; but he simply doesn't care about others' opinions, be they supporters or staff.

 

[cyberman]

The fact he spent time looking that up is damning imo.
A stat that only he cares about

 

[MullerUtd]

Nah, mate, he's doing the usual thing of waiting out bad results & fans' fury in the hope that things improve towards the season's end; then he'll sign the contract. The fact that he himself is now reduced to implying 'be careful what you wish for' should tell him it's time to go; but he simply doesn't care about others' opinions, be they supporters or staff.

Well he still hasn't renew his contract which is up at the end of this season, and judging by his recent body language, it seems like he is really leaving this time. I hope he doesn't though. I have a 100 euro bet on him to remain at Arsenal at the start of next season!

 

[SteveJ]

I hope he doesn't though. I have a 100 euro bet on him to remain at Arsenal at the start of next season!

 

[Xaviesta]

Well he still hasn't renew his contract which is up at the end of this season, and judging by his recent body language, it seems like he is really leaving this time. I hope he doesn't though. I have a 100 euro bet on him to remain at Arsenal at the start of next season!

What odds?

 

[jem]

I feel you are getting team building and club building a bit mixed up when they aren't entirely the same thing.

For instance, before Wenger arrived Arsenal had been in a tailspin. The infrastructure of the club, both physical and process, was outdated. Highbury was instantly outdated after the 89-91 remodels where somehow they completely lacked foresight and only put a small number of hospitality boxes in one goal end. Baffling lack of foresight. Before Wenger our team captain was a raging alcoholic who could still somehow play blinders while still totally pissed from the night before in an era when that was not the norm on the continent anymore.

What Wenger changed at Arsenal was enormous.
He completely changed the training, nutrition and removed the decades long alcoholic culture. his Bergkamp inspired 442 was really a prototype of modern 4231s (as documented by Zonal Marking even). The massive club changes were credited by Tony Adams among others as pioneering in England at the time. Adams credited it with extending and improving the career of that entire defense. The classic defense Graham built but he let sink into drunken swiss chess in 94/95. While he might be outdated now, his focus on team nutrition, sports science and introducing statistics and biology was absolutely crucial to turning Arsenal around and helping spur the modernization of British football. Oh and thats all with a lack of support from the board. Your marketing department has been light years ahead of ours for two decades. That makes a big difference too.

Also, again economics comes into play when talking about club building even if not team building. Arsene took Arsenal shares from something like £500 a share to £10,000 in his first 10 years. While that won't get fans excited, that is absolutely massive for investors, shareholders, owners. That was through astute management at the time (something he has admittedly lost quite a bit lately). But you are really underestimating how massive his influence was. London Colney, our training ground, and all our modern systems wouldn't exist without Wenger if we had some LMA clown. Emirates was literally built on the back on the economic growth from Wenger. Again, any investor will look at what Wenger did and not even question what I claim about club building. The other faction at the time (Dein wanted Wenger) would have been a disaster. Had Arsenal got a Proper Footballing Man (LMA) after Rioch, it would have been absolute disaster for the club. We would be where Blackburn or Leeds are now.

The complete 180 degree turn in club direction is what modernized Arsenal. Frolm 97-2006 Arsene was absolutely the right man for the job and the influence he had at Arsenal was absolutely every bit as important as Shankly at Liverpool. Wenger set up Arsenal for the modern era in the mid 1990s. He hasn't maximized on the benefits of that, but to undervalue how much he modernized Arsenal 1997-2007 is just not accurate history.

I'm taking your word on a lot of that, but that was a fantastic post. Very enjoyable read.

 

[Kentonio]

The only way he doesn't deserve to be sacked is if we still view football from a sentimentalist traditional viewpoint. He did great things for that club, but if that buys you a lifetime free pass then Arsenal will never achieve anything. He's more than earned the right to leave at the end of his contract at the end of the season with it presented as his decision, but if he's at the helm next season then it will be beyond ridiculous.

 

[doodle]

Allegri is currently the bookies favorite to be the next arsenal manager