So the 3-5-2

It looks really nice on paper but it doesn't work well in practice (not for us anyway). If teams press us high up the pitch we aren't capable of playing it out from the back and if they can close down the fullbacks then they've took away our width (and pace) and forced us to play through the middle, which we're not good at. We're toothless in this formation and far too easy to counter.

Playing four at the back is nailed on in my opinion, most likely some variation of 4-3-3. That would be for the best as well, even if we do have to rotate the 'big three' up top.
 
-----------------------DDG------------------------
----------Jones------Evans-------Blackett
Cuadrado------------verratti-----------Di Maria
---------------Herrara----Januzaj-------------
----------------------RVP--------------------
--------------------Rooney--------------------

Woody get it done!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Sign more players that mean Shaw and Rafael never play again. Awesome.
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Rafael is always injured and shaw can compete for a place in the team with either Di Maria or Blackett, our squad as a whole is garbage at the moment and we need to raise the level of quality we have.
 
An Irish Red said:
If teams press us high up the pitch we aren't capable of playing it out from the back and if they can close down the fullbacks then they've took away our width (and pace) and forced us to play through the middle
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I think the first point is the biggest problem we have currently, yesterday some of the passing between the defence and the midfield was shocking, particularly in the first 15 minutes. There seemed to be a real nervousness in possession and consequently no real base from which to build from. Van Gaal likes to keep possession, which is fine, but the back five and midfield just did not seem technically capable of doing that yesterday. Considering the back three in this system see so much of the ball it's a real issue. The return of Evans will help though, he's certainly the most suited to that aspect of the system. I've not seen enough of Rojo myself but from van Gaal's comments he's not one to struggle with the ball in defence either.

Disagree with the second comment personally, I think the issue with the wingbacks was one of quality as opposed to something tactical or inherently problematic. Both Young and Valencia saw enough of the ball but had poor games and didn't do enough with it. There were times when both had their fullback isolated but were unwilling to take them on and attack the byline, so they would cut in and play a safe 10 yard pass back to Fletcher or Cleverley. I think van Gaal needs to encourage both to be more adventurous.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I admire the optimism of people who think the return of Rafael and Shaw will make this system look any better. I think it will look worse, if anything.

I know Young and Valencia have been poor for ages but asking them to operate out wide with no overlapping runs from a fullback can only make them less of an attacking threat. Take them out of the team and replace them with specialist defenders and there's not a hope in hell of us looking any more threatening out wide.

Shaw's never looked a natural attacker and Rafael's best work going forwards has always been about linking up with Valencia. Dread to think how toothless we'll look if they're being asked to provide all our width on their own.

Di Maria could be great as a LWB but that means our 30m quid boy wonder is benched indefinitely. WTF?
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I disagree entirely. Shaw was known for his scoring and being able to contribute play at South Hampton and Rafael has a very good crossing technique. Far better than valencia who just nails at whatever.

This also adds quite a bit of surety from the CB's as they know the two people on the flanks are inept at being able to help defensively.
 
revel911 said:
I disagree entirely. Shaw was known for his scoring and being able to contribute play at South Hampton and Rafael has a very good crossing technique. Far better than valencia who just nails at whatever.

This also adds quite a bit of surety from the CB's as they know the two people on the flanks are inept at being able to help defensively.
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Really? How many goals and assists did he get?
 
A team like this (+-) is not that far away. If it plays to its true potential, it challenges strongly for top honours in England and Europe.

De Gea;
Jones, Hummels, Rojo;
Di Maria, Herrera, Strootman, Shaw;
Mata;
Rooney, RvP

Of course it need equal quality in reserve with players like Januzaj, carrick, Evans and Rafael to deputise/offer variety.

As others have said, until LVG gets a full squad to experiment, it's just too soon to say whether 352 works for us.
 
Di maria will not be played as a wing back. He will either be a winger or left of mid 3 in a 433. His signing is death knell for 352
 
Dracula said:
Di maria will not be played as a wing back. He will either be a winger or left of mid 3 in a 433. His signing is death knell for 352
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I hope so although if we have been in for him all summer, with other potential alternatives like Cuadrado then would seem strange that we've spent all pre-season practicing a way of playing that we're not planning to play if we get our targets. Although I do think LVG had plans for Carrick to be the 3rd centreback, able to drop to make it a 3 or push up to make it a diamond. I hope he was thinking on those lines anyway. Would be a massive shame to either get ADM and play him as a wingback or to bring him in at the expense of mata.
 
Ash_G said:
I hope so although if we have been in for him all summer, with other potential alternatives like Cuadrado then would seem strange that we've spent all pre-season practicing a way of playing that we're not planning to play if we get our targets. Although I do think LVG had plans for Carrick to be the 3rd centreback, able to drop to make it a 3 or push up to make it a diamond. I hope he was thinking on those lines anyway. Would be a massive shame to either get ADM and play him as a wingback or to bring him in at the expense of mata.
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Lvg had to play the best formation for the team he had at the time he couldnt gamble on getting specific players...especially at this place.

Lvg talked about being unbalanced, the di maria signing will address some of that balance,another cm will do so further. The only thing he will have to make a decision over is whether to play roo or rvp.

He specifically name dropped di maria when talking about why he couldnt play 433
 
Dracula said:
Lvg had to play the best formation for the team he had at the time he couldnt gamble on getting specific players...especially at this place.

Lvg talked about being unbalanced, the di maria signing will address some of that balance,another cm will do so further. The only thing he will have to make a decision over is whether to play roo or rvp.

He specifically name dropped di maria when talking about why he couldnt play 433
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Well like I said I hope so although he did also say playing 433 means he has to drop one of Rooney/RVP. Given he just named Rooney captain and he loves RVP then I can't see us go to a 433 until those two don't perform in whatever formation he's looking for. I think a diamond is possible though
 
Ash_G said:
I hope so although if we have been in for him all summer, with other potential alternatives like Cuadrado then would seem strange that we've spent all pre-season practicing a way of playing that we're not planning to play if we get our targets. Although I do think LVG had plans for Carrick to be the 3rd centreback, able to drop to make it a 3 or push up to make it a diamond. I hope he was thinking on those lines anyway. Would be a massive shame to either get ADM and play him as a wingback or to bring him in at the expense of mata.
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Had not considered that. Actually its a fantastic idea, if Carrick can make the transition, which I think he can.

It would open all sorts of opportunities in midfield,

DDG
Evans Carrick Rojo
Rafael, Herrera, Di Maria, Shaw
Mata
Rooney, Van Persie

On paper it looks exciting. if we can get the likes of Vidal or Strootman into the squad over the next 12 months, it opens up even more possibilities.
 
sammsky1 said:
Had not considered that. Actually its a fantastic idea, if Carrick can make the transition, which I think he can.

It would open all sorts of opportunities in midfield,

DDG
Evans Carrick Rojo
Rafael, Herrera, Di Maria, Shaw
Mata
Rooney, Van Persie

On paper it looks exciting. if we can get the likes of Vidal or Strootman into the squad over the next 12 months, it opens up even more possibilities.
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Yeah I just think that's the way it can potentially work. Our other defenders bar Evans just aren't good enough on the ball for us to play them consistently as it means teams can sit of us knowing they're unlikely to do anything. Carrick there with genuine options ahead of him who can accept the ball under pressure and do something gives us options and means they have to close him down, can't give Carrick the same time Smalling was getting for example. Then defensively where he can be the spare man I think Carrick has got more than enough.

Personally I think if we do get Di Maria we would be best in a 433 having to chose one of Rooney/RVP up top but don't think LVG would go that route unless they really fail to click.
 
Whatever formation we play, if we continue to play as slow and poorly as we have been, watching City and LFC right now - they will tear us to shreds. We really do have a fecking terrible central midfield, it's almost embarrassing how far off last seasons top 6 ours is.
 
Just drop it. It's not even Van Gaals favourite formation, and I'm pretty sure he had never used it before Strootmans injury in March.

We've the same problems as Holland had in the WC, we don't have enough going forward and don't create enough. I hope to god the signing of Di Maria brings a chance to 433/4231.
 
It's really not a 3-5-2. Compared to our full backs of last season (Rafael and Evra) Janko and James/Valencia and Young have got forward less and the wing back role demands MORE attacking than fullbacks in a back four. We're playing 5-3-2.

Narrow, no width, no penetration. I was delighted with the appointment of van Gaal as I expected him to revert back to a more traditional 4-3-3 after the shoehorning he was forced into as Netherlands boss - buts it's clear that the intended system isn't working with us, regardless of who plays.
 
"You know those big, tall defenders who are great at heading the ball but would be playing in a different position if they were better footballers?"

"Centre backs. Yeah?"

"Well how about we try a formation where we replace one of our more talented players with one of these lumps and ensure that they see more of the ball than anyone else in the team?"

"Sure thing, guvnor. What could possibly go wrong?"
 
Ummmm.... really not sure about this one. On one hand we did well (to okay with it in pre-season). But as soon shit got real we look like we don't know wtf we are doing... bullied by minnows...
 
Amadaeus said:
I guess i was wrong about the system(hard to say so far). I taught it will be too defensive with the extra center back, but instead it allows us to have a more open field to pay in without shunning our proficient central players out wide. We just need a number 6 and a experienced centerback and that system will be flawless. The only concern I do have is whether Rooney and Van Persie will complement each other in this system and whether the lack of movement between those two will be a problem.
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I guess I was right about this system. :lol:..I taught I will be finally wrong about something, but day by day, it seems this system is not the best to use in the bpl. It is too defensive and it leaves us vunerable down the flank. However, I still believe I will end up wrong because we had soo much success with it in the pre-season. Van Gaal just needs to find the right balance and make our team press higher. We were unlucky to loose a goal after sloppy play from Evans.
 
Perhaps 3-5-2 and English football just isn't a mix?

Although we must remember it takes time to implement a completely new system.
 
It's not working; change it. The amount of chances we'e created this season has been ridiculously low. I don't see the benefit of spending months trying to implement this system when we have perfectly good, proven alternatives ready to go.
 
It can work but it clearly isn't working for us. I understand wanting to try it after having success with it at the WC but come on Louis just foget it and move back to your trusted 4-3-3 please. We are completely incapable of fashioning chances in this system.
 
Let us stop the madness. It is just not working. Our players especially our defenders are not suited for this type of system. Let us play 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-2 and get on with it.
 
We were all over them for the first 20 odd minutes. The system hasn't been that bad. Our players have got the ball in good areas, and wasted it. Evans'...moment, has led to another confidence collapse. The lack of mental strength in the squad is horrific to see.
 
It's a gradual process, players need at least 3 to 6 months to learn a very tactical and challenging formation. Learning a formation is like learning a new language as a team.
 
#07 said:
We were all over them for the first 20 odd minutes. The system hasn't been that bad. Our players have got the ball in good areas, and wasted it. Evans'...moment, has led to another confidence collapse. The lack of mental strength in the squad is horrific to see.
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We've had one clear cut chance in 2 and a half games. It's not entirely on the system, but sacrificing an attacker for a centreback whilst having two ineffective wingbacks every time is showing. We won't create anything meaningful with this lot in this system, in competitive games.
 
#07 said:
Evans'...moment, has led to another confidence collapse. The lack of mental strength in the squad is horrific to see.
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Fcukin aye.... hate to say it, but it's a hangover from the Moyes era... need to get rid of it. We fall to pieces so quickly and so completely right now.
 
I knew this would be the reaction when things started to go this way. The problem is with the players. It was the same under Moyes.
 
How is the system responsible for Evans having yet another mental collapse? Or our attackers still not having figured out how to make a proper pass and run?
 
Sick of this fecking formation. No pace and predictable forward play.
 
feck this formation. There is absolutely no reason to be playing this formation considering the players we have out there.
 
RuudTom83 said:
After 3 games it might not be working but then it has only been tried for 3 games.
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I feel that there is just too much at stake. 3 games, 10 games, 25 games, a whole season.. I think it needs to be dropped and revisited when these guys are at full flow and full of confidence. Maybe the learning curve is too steep? Technically some of these youngsters especially just don't look like they have enough on the ball.
 
The formation can't be at fault for the stupid mistakes, but it just doesn't suit these players. There's been no pace or penetration in 3 games and we've hardly created anything.

Maybe Di Maria changes things, but I'd rather us try 4-3-3 from now on.
 
Whether we play a 3-5-2, 4-3-3, 9-0-1, or whatever-whatever-whatever, professional footballers should be able to know how to control a ball and complete a simple pass. Half our players can't even do that by the looks of what I've seen against MK Dons.
 
Never been a fan of this formation. Young, Januzaj etc as wingbacks? It made sense with the squad we had at the beginning but with signing Rojo and AdM, surely we can go 4-3-3?

I fear we persist with this until were out of contention for the top 4 etc
 
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