So the 3-5-2

[Walrus]

3 of the 4 goals were because of defensive erros. This was down to the plays not fitting the system, simple as that.

Honestly - errors of the "defender passes straight to opposition player" variety are not down to the system, but it does seem to be a common sympton in our play at the moment.

 

[Redo91]

I was never a fan of this formation even when the results were good during preseason. Now that things have gone tits up it needs to be changed asap.

 

[Steev]

I dunno yet if the 3-5-2 is the issue. Do we really believe it'd have been much better tonight with a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2? I doubt it.

van Gaal probably won't knee-jerk react and change from the 3-5-2, suppose we have to be patient.

I think we would have got a better result playing a system the players are used to.

I can't see LVG sticking with this system. It won't work.

 

[DocRockter]

Is there people who think that the younger defenders should be eased into the new system and not change it when they don't have many experienced players playing with them? I'm all for changing the system from the academy on but maybe doing it little by little and letting the older players cover the youngsters better..

 

[Kostur]

Honestly - errors of the "defender passes straight to opposition player" variety are not down to the system, but it does seem to be a common sympton in our play at the moment.

This a thousand times. I'm not a fan of that 3-5-2 myself ( and definitely not an opponent of it ) but trying to deflect our players ineptitude and trying to imply that it's the system that's the biggest problem is just wrong.

Especially that we've always complained about this fecking 4-4-2 and wanted both Ferguson and Moyes to get rid of this system.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

The system is a reason why these individual mistakes keeps happening. The system forces the defenders to be more aggressive and take more risks.

 

[Ash_G]

PARTY!!

Hope that's a true statement. Although still not sure how he can see what he has so far and think that this is better than the alternatives. I mean januzaj and mata as part of a trio behind one of the strikers with a choice of rooney/welbeck/kagawa/valencia/young isn't terrible. At least 3/4 of that could work nicely.

 

[Raees]

Best thing about this formation is that it exposes the talent of alot of our players. It shows just how much a better footballer welbeck is than Hernandez for example. 4-3-3 with a strong group of players can't come soon enough though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The system is a reason why these individual mistakes keeps happening. The system forces the defenders to be more aggressive and take more risks.

It also ensures they have far more of the ball than they would in any other formation. Our least talented footballers. So is it any great surprise when passes go astray? Stupid bloody formation. No more. Please.

 

[Mozza]

The system is a reason why these individual mistakes keeps happening. The system forces the defenders to be more aggressive and take more risks.

They are not being agressive and taking risks, they should be storming into challenges knowing they've got 2 mates covering them, instead they are sitting off playing the low risk game

 

[Ash_G]

It also ensures they have far more of the ball than they would in any other formation. Our least talented footballers. So is it any great surprise when passes go astray? Stupid bloody formation. No more. Please.

That's what I find bizarre, it literally takes the worst aspects of our game over the last couple of seasons and puts it at the forefront of any potential chance we have.

 

[Silverman]

It's just not working.

 

[An Irish Red]

It also ensures they have far more of the ball than they would in any other formation. Our least talented footballers. So is it any great surprise when passes go astray? Stupid bloody formation. No more. Please.

The much maligned David Luiz would be ideal for this system. Which is a pretty great indication that we should get away from it as quick as possible.

 

[Kill 'em all]

It's just not working.

I'm all for going 4-3-3 but the current mistakes we're doing are very simple. Our defenders can't even make a 10 yard square pass without giving it to the opposition. We're too slow to switch the play, midfielders getting out-muscled and outplayed and our strikers are having nightmares and donkey touches.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

We've had 3 games now with it and conceded 7 and scored 2.

You can talk about individual mistakes all you want but I think the system isn't helping. As Pogue says it's making our defenders see most of the ball, and they're pretty awful.

 

[Infra-red]

There seems to be little point in persisting with a back 3 when absolutely none of our defenders look even remotely comfortable with it. The defence has been a shambles in all 3 games, time for a change.

 

[Silverman]

I'm all for going 4-3-3 but the current mistakes we're doing are very simple. Our defenders can't even make a 10 yard square pass without giving it to the opposition. We're too slow to switch the play, midfielders getting out-muscled and outplayed and our strikers are having nightmares and donkey touches.

Yeah, we need to settle the team down and get some continuity between the players.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I'm all for going 4-3-3 but the current mistakes we're doing are very simple. Our defenders can't even make a 10 yard square pass without giving it to the opposition. We're too slow to switch the play, midfielders getting out-muscled and outplayed and our strikers are having nightmares and donkey touches.

Which is why this is the worst possible formation for them. For this system to work you need ball playing defenders we really do not have those.

 

[An Irish Red]

The system would be fine for someone like Barcelona; where they have great attackers who are quick and capable of creating chances for themselves and a squad who are brilliant at keeping the ball.

We're not technically gifted enough for it though, it's sad to say. We can't keep the ball well enough and any english team with a bit of work rate will punish us heavily.

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

Honestly - errors of the "defender passes straight to opposition player" variety are not down to the system, but it does seem to be a common sympton in our play at the moment.

They can be to a degree. If player A doesn't show for the ball because he thinks that his position in the system doesn't allow for that for whatever reason it can be relating to the system. For me there are too many 'I play to this system' individual players. There is no combination of players that I see in this entire group that work together to form a system. It was also apparent in Ferguson's last season that was somewhat bailed out by RVP and his goalmachine season.

Carrick - lacks mobility in defense for the holding role, playing the way Fletch has been playing I still would see a massive liability positionally in protecting the back four.
Cleverley - Pass and move player and doesn't operate well with a number 10 as he needs the space to be viable in getting forward.
Fletcher - So far has played a bit of an all-round role and personally I think he looks jaded or a yard off the pace or something.
Wingbacks - we don't have an actual natural wingback. We've been playing wingers and fullbacks at wingback and lumping all of the responsibility for attack and defense on them.

When I look at this playing group I do see that the players are lacking a bit of brains in that sense - their instincts just don't fit this system. We'd be much better scrapping the 10 and playing a holding player dictating the tempo with two players in front of them running the legs into the opposition half and third. Then linking up with the strikers - there seems to me when the wingbacks pushforward to just be an overload of players in the final third and the movement to stretch the defence is to slow and not instinctively dynamic. ie. Touches here and there, sharp crisp passing with crisp movement.

Right now, we just don't look like we have a bread and butter outlet to get a goal or get goals. Okay last season the crossing thing mutated into a hulk like entity but as Shaq once said 'whenever I was playing badly I had two moves to get me going again, I'd go back to basic and use the these moves. I'd post up get the big boom boom into the paint (his butt) or get in the defenders face try to put them off and go over them to the rack.' We just don't even look like we have that - if we don't have bread and butter to go to then how are we going to score goals before we even fix the system/players issue.

I think this will be a big task for Van Gaal to fix if I am honest.

 

[The Red Thinker]

Which is why this is the worst possible formation for them. For this system to work you need ball playing defenders we really do not have those.

Really??? 10 yard passes?? If we can't make 10 fecking yard passes feck any system Manchester United is done! Don't be silly. This is a case of pathetic errors.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

These defensive mistakes are more confidence based than system based, bad decisions made by players second guessing themselves. We either play too fast or too slow, we aren't executing.

 

[gasmanc]

I dunno yet if the 3-5-2 is the issue. Do we really believe it'd have been much better tonight with a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2? I doubt it.

van Gaal probably won't knee-jerk react and change from the 3-5-2, suppose we have to be patient.

He mentioned in post match how Di Maria will give an option to change the system as he can play wide and central. The 3-5-2 is just an extreme in order to shoehorn Mata,Rooney,VP into the side but it's a steep learning curve from our traditional outside wing formations. Di Maria is clearly perfect for 4-3-3 or even as an inside forward in the midfield 5 so we will have good options personnel and formation wise.
Rafael and Shaws fitness are key to success this season and looking how our CB's have performed I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a back four as soon as those two are ready for selection.

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

These defensive mistakes are more confidence based than system based, bad decisions made by players second guessing themselves. We either play too fast or too slow, we aren't executing.

Or 'when it goes tits up holy shite what do we do!' type of thing that drains the confidence in general. I don't want to step into a meat grinder when I am at work so I am shit scared to turn that corner. Part of that still to me is this new system. The old 'outlet' moves are gone and the new ones don't feel right yet.

 

[sullydnl]

Can anyone tell me why settling on a 4-4-2 diamond wouldn't be the smartest move?

It would give us a defensive set up we're more comfortable with and allow us to play all of Rooney, RvP, Mata, Di Maria and Herrera in roles that would (arguably) get the best out of them.

 

[Walrus]

They can be to a degree. If player A doesn't show for the ball because he thinks that his position in the system doesn't allow for that for whatever reason it can be relating to the system. For me there are too many 'I play to this system' individual players.

Positioning is definitely something which players may need to get used to in a new formation, however the sorts of basic errors we have been making every game in distributing the ball from the back, cannot be the product of anything other than the players making ridiculous errors.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Or 'when it goes tits up holy shite what do we do!' type of thing that drains the confidence in general. I don't want to step into a meat grinder when I am at work so I am shit scared to turn that corner. Part of that still to me is this new system. The old 'outlet' moves are gone and the new ones don't feel right yet.

The outlet moves are still there i.e. pointless hoofs!

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Really??? 10 yard passes?? If we can't make 10 fecking yard passes feck any system Manchester United is done! Don't be silly. This is a case of pathetic errors.

We are both being hyperbolic. I am just saying when you have defenders who are not great on the ball play a system that requires defenders who are great on the ball is the best move.

 

[Mozza]

It also ensures they have far more of the ball than they would in any other formation. Our least talented footballers. So is it any great surprise when passes go astray? Stupid bloody formation. No more. Please.

Defenders always have the most ball, this is no different to last season. Hitting the first pass forward is one of the hardest jobs in football, we've only had 2 players in the last 10 years who could hit one realiably, ones retired, ones injured. We need to work on the movement of the players concentrating more at the early phase of play, how we get the ball out of the back and into midfield, theres no combination work, the team plays in pairs

 

[FromTheBench]

Players who played today are unfamiliar with each other already.

Dunno, why we had to play 3-5-2 on top of that.

On top of that the subs were total weird too. Shambolic really and embarassing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Defenders always have the most ball, this is no different to last season. Hitting the first pass forward is one of the hardest jobs in football, we've only had 2 players in the last 10 years who could hit one realiably, ones retired, ones injured. We need to work on the movement of the players concentrating more at the early phase of play, how we get the ball out of the back and into midfield, theres no combination work, the team plays in pairs

Made even harder when there's one less player ahead of them to pick out.

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

Positioning is definitely something which players may need to get used to in a new formation, however the sorts of basic errors we have been making every game in distributing the ball from the back, cannot be the product of anything other than the players making ridiculous errors.

You don't think that the extra pressure in the face of learning to play these roles could cause heightened levels of misunderstanding and things like that? Obviously it's not the main cause and individual errors that have cost us really stung.

 

[saivet]

It simply doesn't suit the players. It didn't take the Dutch team 6 months to learn this formation. IIRC they started playing this way in the pre World Cup friendlies. We've had more than enough time to look at least competent in this system.

 

[Redo91]

Can anyone tell me why settling on a 4-4-2 diamond wouldn't be the smartest move?

It would give us a defensive set up we're more comfortable with and allow us to play all of Rooney, RvP, Mata, Di Maria and Herrera in roles that would (arguably) get the best out of them.

Not enough width.

 

[Mozza]

Can anyone tell me why settling on a 4-4-2 diamond wouldn't be the smartest move?

It would give us a defensive set up we're more comfortable with and allow us to play all of Rooney, RvP, Mata, Di Maria and Herrera in roles that would (arguably) get the best out of them.

Great big gaps on the flanks

 

[gasmanc]

Can anyone tell me why settling on a 4-4-2 diamond wouldn't be the smartest move?

It would give us a defensive set up we're more comfortable with and allow us to play all of Rooney, RvP, Mata, Di Maria and Herrera in roles that would (arguably) get the best out of them.

Seems Van Gaal isn't keen on square pegs in round holes, he likes a left footed LB a left footed LCB a right footed RCB etc etc, we haven't got the players fit for that and our upfront options are forcing us to play 3-5-2 or players out of position.
He trusts his system and with AdM arriving I feel it will alter.

 

[Walrus]

You don't think that the extra pressure in the face of learning to play these roles could cause heightened levels of misunderstanding and things like that? Obviously it's not the main cause and individual errors that have cost us really stung.

I am no professional footballer, but im sure its one of the most basic rules of defending that if in doubt, you clear the ball. Hoof it if necessary, rather than passing straight to the opponent. Far too often in preseason our CBs have been gifting away possession. Some of this may be down to the system, but for me it is inexcusable to being seeing these mistakes multiple times per game, and that can only be blamed on the players.

 

[Ash_G]

Seems Van Gaal isn't keen on square pegs in round holes, he likes a left footed LB a left footed LCB a right footed RCB etc etc, we haven't got the players fit for that and our upfront options are forcing us to play 3-5-2 or players out of position.
He trusts his system and with AdM arriving I feel it will alter.

I don't think that's true personally you only have to look at our defence/wingbacks that he's used to see. If they're not square pegs in to round holes than I don't know what is. Seems to be he's more about players adapting to the system rather than finding a system that works for the players (well outside of finding someway to play mata/rvp/rooney all in their favoured roles).

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

I am no professional footballer, but im sure its one of the most basic rules of defending that if in doubt, you clear the ball. Hoof it if necessary, rather than passing straight to the opponent. Far too often in preseason our CBs have been gifting away possession. Some of this may be down to the system, but for me it is inexcusable to being seeing these mistakes multiple times per game, and that can only be blamed on the players.

Sure, but you can't just go hoofing the ball out at the first sign of danger and shitting your drawers. Obviously in this system there is a heavy reliance on individual composure. I suppose that is one thing I loved about Vidic. Sometimes I would say 'ffs mate why are you kicking it out there hoof it up field' and other times I'd be saying 'good work mate, if in doubt get it out' and there was always a consistency to it. There is definitely way more pressure on our defenders than there has been in the past in this system.

edit: You're right in that is more individual than the system.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

These defensive mistakes are more confidence based than system based, bad decisions made by players second guessing themselves. We either play too fast or too slow, we aren't executing.

This is what I've been saying. I don't think its the system. It's just that the players are so under confident that they can't even seem to do simple things correctly.

No one seems to be willing to make a run or play a risky pass. It's excruciating.