It's not only about touching the ball. The runs and the movement and the interchanging was all good and Kagawa was part of that. Also i am not basing this on 20 vs WB but it just makes so much sense.
The 20 mins after RVP went off...
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It's not only about touching the ball. The runs and the movement and the interchanging was all good and Kagawa was part of that. Also i am not basing this on 20 vs WB but it just makes so much sense.
Rvp and Rooney just isn't working.
Fair enough. I personalyl thought he was very uninvolved and that only Rooney, Carrick and Jones were worse.
So RvP and Rooney being in the same team last season is the sole reason our general play was crap, even though there were 8 other out field players? 26 goals and 10 assists for RvP and 12 goals and 11 assists for Rooney isn't a bad return for two forwards IMO!
RVP is correct when he says some players (Rooney) are taking up his position forcing him to adapt. Throughout the game today, I saw RVP playing deeper than Rooney many times. He held the ball well, but he can't really affect a game there can he?
When he was subbed off Welbeck came on and Rooney stayed in his No. 10 role. Our team became much more fluid.
When he was subbed off Welbeck came on and Rooney stayed in his No. 10 role. Our team became much more fluid.
Hate to say it, but yes. We did look much smoother and fluid after RVP left. Rooney and Mata were combining much more effectively.
This
The smallest part of that. Welbeck played a much bigger part in it if we're just talking individuals. The biggest change though was getting the cushion.
I lay the blame for the Fulham equalising goal squarely at RVP's feet. Fantastic player. Needs to sort out his attitude a bit I feel. Wasn't bad today at all.
The only times we have looked dangerous when chasing games in the past few weeks has been when Rooney and Mata have combined in the middle. The passes are shorter and quicker. Welbeck coming on today provided so much more space for those players behind. I hate to say it but Van Persie just doesn't seem to fit in that system. He's clearly a frustrated player at the moment too, which probably doesn't help.
Had the impression that the game changed when Kagawa came on... correct me if i am wrong.
The striker integral to our league title the season before and you'd have given the elbow just like that?
Rooney and Van Persie standing on each other's toes in a gutless variation of 442 hasn't worked all season, doesn't work now and will never work unless we spend £200 million on the best four, straight-line midfielders on the planet.
Moyes has a big decision to make, sadly, I don't think he will make it. It's strange, because as soon as Welbeck came on, Rooney dropped deep and the lads started to rotate. Is this a tactic? Or is this some bizarre mental game between Rooney and Van Persie? The latter, of course, is farfetched and most probably nonsense, but the situation is strange.
They don't suit one another at all. Unfortunately for Robin, he may have to be the one to make way.
Moyes has a big decision to make, sadly, I don't think he will make it. It's strange, because as soon as Welbeck came on, Rooney dropped deep and the lads started to rotate. Is this a tactic? Or is this some bizarre mental game between Rooney and Van Persie? The latter, of course, is farfetched and most probably nonsense, but the situation is strange.
They don't suit one another at all. Unfortunately for Robin, he may have to be the one to make way.
It is strange, and I've noticed it in the past couple of games when we have had to rescue ourselves after poor first halves. I don't understand why we don't play that way from the start.
Indeed, it's as much a case of how the two are deployed on the pitch as anything else, we should still hae seen an improvement had Kagawa replaced Rooney or the latter used in a deeper role.
Although the second goal was the first bit of intricate interplay football of the game.
The 20 minutes after RvP went off, Rooney dropped deeper.
Whenever RvP's in the team, Rooney seems to instinctively go and stand next to him in the box whenever we are on the attack, instead of doing his job and creating opportunities behind him. Whether its by instruction or design, I don't know. But what we do know is in the box, they're usually too close to each other, and RvP is frustrated and drops back instead. That was probably what RvP was referring to in his interview after that Olympiakos game.
I'm pretty sure THIS
RvP
Kagawa - Mata - Januzaj
will be a more lethal setup than the one with Rooney up top.
Whenever RvP's in the team, Rooney seems to instinctively go and stand next to him in the box whenever we are on the attack, instead of doing his job and creating opportunities behind him. Whether its by instruction or design, I don't know. But what we do know is in the box, they're usually too close to each other, and RvP is frustrated and drops back instead. That was probably what RvP was referring to in his interview after that Olympiakos game.
I'm pretty sure THIS
RvP
Kagawa - Mata - Januzaj
will be a more lethal setup than the one with Rooney up top.
We look much better with just one of them on the pitch.
Yep. He really speeds up our play.
Let's face us, I'm sure most of us know RVP will be off in the Summer. We won't phase him out though because we'll want as much as we can from him.
You're wrong. As soon as Welbeck replaced RVP it changed for the better.
I think the only thing missing when we play them both is pace. Unfortunately with Mata we lack even more pace than before. I don't know who should and shouldn't play but I did notice that we were incapable of making a counter attack while we had our initial combination on.
Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
Welbeck/RVP
Janujaz off the bench for either wings.
Welbeck/RVP
Janujaz off the bench for either wings.
Moyes post match - "I thought Robin and Wayne were excellent."
I wouldn't really read much in to what happened in the last twenty as I can't see how Welbeck/Rooney is much more different to RVP/Rooney in terms of approach, for me the key factors were getting the second which killed off West Broms hopes with them visibly declining after it and the confidence boost it gave us. If anything Rooey dropped slightly deeper and worked stuff better from deeper which allowed carrick, fellaini, mata and kagawa to really get involved in the build up and that's a key thing we've been missing in most games.
I'd say the bigger thing about the last twenty is not the issue of RVP/Rooney but the difference between Rooney playing too high and him playing deeper and more patiently, with the latter allowing players to get involved much more and for us to progress centrally. When he comes back and either passes it back or sends it wide and then runs back up the pitch it doesn't do much for us, but when he passes it, waits for the return etc then all of a sudden it opens up options. That's what we need him to do with RVP on the pitch.
I'd say the bigger thing about the last twenty is not the issue of RVP/Rooney but the difference between Rooney playing too high and him playing deeper and more patiently, with the latter allowing players to get involved much more and for us to progress centrally. When he comes back and either passes it back or sends it wide and then runs back up the pitch it doesn't do much for us, but when he passes it, waits for the return etc then all of a sudden it opens up options. That's what we need him to do with RVP on the pitch.
This
Moyes post match - "I thought Robin and Wayne were excellent."
I think he doesnt think that. He covers things for internal judgment.
I'm not sure this is true. Rooney was coming deep plenty when RVP was on the pitch - the first goal came from such a situation. He was just alot more effective at creating when Welbeck and Kagawa were on the pitch with him.
Today alot of this was down to the fact that the game opened up once we had taken the lead, especially after we had the second.
Rooney was giving the ball away alot when RVP was on the pitch partly because of bad touches but I do think it helps him to have the likes of Kagawa, Mata, Welbeck buzzing around him to give him easier options. RVP tends to stay forward and central more which makes it more difficult to link with him. Someone like Welbeck roams alot more and comes quite deep himself and if he does stay forward he quite often drifts wide to create space.
Not a fan of stats and heat maps but this one for today is quite indicative of our recent attacking struggles.
Rooney and RVP inevitably occupying the same positions. Maybe this is what the latter was referring to in the post Olympiakos interview...
Rooney and RVP inevitably occupying the same positions. Maybe this is what the latter was referring to in the post Olympiakos interview...
Our midfield is simply too weak to support two strikers.
RVP's last contribution was to shove Rooney into Chris Brunt. Brunt almost lost his knee in the collision. Poor chap. But our two main men are getting in each other's way, and Moyes will have to sort out these two big egos.
Spot on, mate.
The wrinkle in this thinking, however, is that we have some massive matches coming up and I can't see RvP bring benched for them, but the observation itself is well taken.
Nothing to do with Van Persie's actual ability if Rooney had come off we'd have seen the same thing. The truth is we can only play one if we ever want to flourish as a team. A team with Kagawa, Mata and Janujaz behind Rooney or Van Persie is where we should go.
The 14 mins after Kagawa came on was the best. Sell Januzaj then?
Van Persie got the ball 15 times, its nothing to do with him specifically. Its to do with the other players behind whoever our striker is. When Kagawa came on everyone wanted to play quick short passes. Even the players who were on the pitch 76 minutes before then like Rooney, and that led to the goal.
thank you! can we get back to blaming Moyes for the formation and tactics? they were an extremely impressive partnership last season, a season where RVP was the darling.
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Except they weren't that impressive as a parnership, were they? Not as forwards, anyway. Rooney got shunted into midfield an awful lot to make it work to the point he handed in a transfer request!
good lord, who cares if you call Rooney of last season a striker or midfielder? he and RVP worked brilliantly together. Last i checked Rooney said he was happy to play deeper, and i bet he enjoyed last season a whole lot better than this one, when he signed on the dotted line.
Starting a grand total of 3 games in midfield is not an 'awful lot'.
RVP is clearly mentally unsettled and frustrated, as evidenced by his sterling attempts to get himself sent off - to the point where Moyes had to sub him. He needs to go elsewhere now, we've had the best of him and he's got his winner's medal so nobody owes anybody anything.