Are you one of those Chinese/Korean people who still hold a grudge against Japan for what happened over 70yrs ago? That's the only reason I can think of with all your biased view on Kagawa.
The 20 mins after RVP went off...
- Thread starter Randall Flagg
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I literally like the lad. I've met him and bought him a drink. He was lovely. I'd love love love him to succeed. He winds me up massively.
Strange how you show it, considering most people can agree that he's miles better than Young yet you prefer to be the lone voice of reason in defense...
He's really a nutter if he thinks Kagawa didnt come on and play well. Awful? 
Awful? Awful?
Awful? Awful? I like Young a lot. Seems a thoroughly decent lad. My defence of him is definitely an OTT reaction to the shite that gets written on him.
I always had doubts over this partnership. It's hard to know who's the better player, which is quite uncommon with an attacking two at big sides. Aguero > Negredo, Suarez > Sturridge, Ibrahimovic > Cavani etc.
Rooney and RVP strive to be #1, and that is something that will always hinder their partnership in my opinion. One must go to let the other thrive and with Rooney signing a new contract I think it's obvious who'll go, and I do think I'd prefer it that way anywho.
Rooney and RVP strive to be #1, and that is something that will always hinder their partnership in my opinion. One must go to let the other thrive and with Rooney signing a new contract I think it's obvious who'll go, and I do think I'd prefer it that way anywho.
I see Young and Valencia as the biggest contributors to our hoof & cross style...
The sad thing about all those strikers you've mentioned is that they've all found a way (thanks to their managers) to play well together and score lots of goals. Can't see that happening with Rooney and RVP.
Ad hoc ergo propter hoc.
Last season was Rooney's worst in 5 years. This is going to be van Persie's worst in 4 years. Not exactly a sign of a great partnership.
Once our midfielders and wingers are less goal shy and start making assists maybe we can start playing with one striker.
Hardly! Sir Alex wanted Rooney out.
Not to mention, he was constantly playing a lot deeper, on the wings and in midfield.
Considering the amount of games we play in a season, they've barely played together. Last season out of our 54 games, they only played together 23 times. Think they've only played together 11 times this season?
Indeed. It says a lot that despite Rooney evidently not being a big fan of playing in midfield and Moyes apparently having a tendency to pander to Rooney we've still seen Rooney be pulled back into midfield quite a few times this season. Has there been one game this season where they've both played anywhere near their best?
I guess you could argue the reason Moyes is favouring Rooney over Robin is because whilst Robin needs constant semi-decent supply, Rooney is basically a one man goal machine. This season many big performers have been shit, and we've relied even more on individual brilliance and Rooney has brought more of that to the table. If it was RVP who was playing better, I'd like to think Moyes would be favouring him.
RvP and Rooney are too big a characters for Moyes and remain so until he proves himself as a manager. The team selection will always reflect that unless one is sold. That's not to say both can't play together and form a formidable partnership with better service and understanding from other players.
Fulham away.
All these blokes who believe the RvP-Rooney partnership doesn't work- could you please reason as to why? I thought my theory of them sticking too close to each other all the time was the one that did it, but Rooney has been dropping back so many times this season and even in that game, that it just isn't true. I'm not convinced.
So why?
These are a few arguments:
and if we're covering all bases, also this:
So why?
These are a few arguments:
and if we're covering all bases, also this:
I think what's been clear is Mata and Rooney/Kagawa and Rooney's got a much better understanding than RvP and Rooney.
When all those three are on the pitch together I thought our game was much more fluid. Hopefully we'll see it more in the coming months.
When all those three are on the pitch together I thought our game was much more fluid. Hopefully we'll see it more in the coming months.
I think its pretty simple in some ways, Welbeck tends to stretch our play a lot more than Rooney or RVP. When he came on it just allowed the others a lot more freedom.
So when Welbeck came on, he offered space for our AMs to work in. Fine. In that case, why weren't we bothered by what we lost when RvP left the field? RvP's clearly the better striker, what was it that he offered to the team that Welbeck didn't, and how come we didn't notice its absence?
I'm not sure what I'm saying, but I hope I've made some kind of a point.
With Kagawa on the pitch we had about two decent pieces of play and people's views are coloured by the fact one of those ended in a goal, IMO. His only two involvements prior to the goal was a chipped ball which neither Welbeck or Rooney read and so it went straight to the keeper and then him losing the ball just outside the box. After that there was an attempted one-two in the box with Rooney which again neither Rooney nor Welbeck read. I just don't think Kagawa's on the same wavelength with his team-mates even now so this whole ship van Persie out and watch Kagawa flourish is a long way away from being a reality, IMO.
I think he is one the same wave-lenght with actually a few of our players. Probably not Rooney or RvP but they aren't themselves.
The game was crying out for that change because Mata, RVP and Rooney all like the ball played to feet and occupy similar positions on the pitch. That allowed WBA to play a slightly higher line and condense the field and make it difficult to find that final ball. RVP times his runs well but doesnt have 'game changing pace' that causes opposing teams to change their shape. When Welbeck came on, he stretched the center of defense (channel movement and ability to run onto a through ball) and provided time and space for Rooney and ùMata. Thats why I like Kagawa, he has the flexibility to show to the ball or run into space to stretch the defense (he was superb doing this at Dortmund).
I know what you're saying but you are missing what the point was.
Welbeck is obviously inferior than RVP, no soul in the world could argue against that. But they are very different. Welbeck is more athletic. He's faster. And his style of play is different.
I think being 2-0 up with the game to bed and a bit of confidence back in our players is probably the biggest factor. But what RVP does is he is more technical than Welbeck. He himself drops deep which is why he sometimes finds himself where Rooney operates. Welbeck on the other hand is much more willing to run in behind defenders. This gives the likes of Mata, Kagawa and Rooney the opportunity to play through balls behind the line which Welbeck can run into. Van Persie doesn't run behind defenders as much and in terms of pace he is slower.
That being said RVP and Rooney combined well enough last season. Just feel with Rooney Mata and RVP we have 3 players who want to operate centrally and in between the lines with none really pushing past the last defender which is what Welbeck does do.
On the back of the point I just made, it makes sense when you look at the best passing teams.
Take Barcelona. The have Messi who is world class obviously and can do both, but also Pedro and Neymar who run at and past defenders to allow the great passers to pass through defences to them.
Bayern have Robben and Muller.
Arsenal have historically had gma great passing game but at times also struggled to get players in the box at times. It's no coincidence that when Walcott plays, they have a better outlet to goal.
When you look at our 5 behind RVP, none are really capable at running at and past defenders. Rooney used to but doesn't as often anymore.
That's why if we manage to pick up a player like Reus, it'd massively improve our game.
Take Barcelona. The have Messi who is world class obviously and can do both, but also Pedro and Neymar who run at and past defenders to allow the great passers to pass through defences to them.
Bayern have Robben and Muller.
Arsenal have historically had gma great passing game but at times also struggled to get players in the box at times. It's no coincidence that when Walcott plays, they have a better outlet to goal.
When you look at our 5 behind RVP, none are really capable at running at and past defenders. Rooney used to but doesn't as often anymore.
That's why if we manage to pick up a player like Reus, it'd massively improve our game.
We'll have to agree to disagree, I thought he was quite good, though obviously scored fewer goals than other seasons, not leading the line.
Brwned in a world of people I feel don't watch the same game as me you're always here to offer me comfort.
He wasn't poor by any stretch but the fact you think he was "quite good" seems to suggest you agree with me rather than disagree? Quite good is a long way away from what is expected of him (and no doubt what he expects of himself). Of the last 5 seasons, which do you think was his worst? Likewise with van Persie?
You've also got to bear in mind that when both Rooney and RVP were on the field, both were operating deeper to get touches of the ball. That means when one of them did pick up the ball, they'd have nobody in front of them. When Welbeck came on, you had a willing forward who kept making runs with a forward 3 behind of him, rather than a clumped 4.
Encouraging signs. But we've had encouraging signs a few times this season, only to go back to square one in the very next game. We need to use this positivity to put in a big performance against Liverpool. I would keep the same back four if at all possible.
If I would have given him an 8 out of 10 for his best season in the last 5 years, I might have given him a 7.5 for last season. I thought he was the best player on the team last season.
That and not having two strikers trying to occupy the same spaces instead of feeding off each other. RvP & Rooney are the furthest thing from a Yorke & Cole combo - they literally collided with one another on one play vs WBA
How can the lead striker slow you down? When we play with him in a 4-4-1-1 his job is to finish moves..he rarely gets the chance as the 1 behind him is rarely feeding him through despite seeing so much of the ball. Rooney was anonymous until RvP went off. When Rooney is deeper than lead striker he slows us down. We looked better mainly because Rooney was moved up top where RvP was, Mata came more centrally and then kagawa came on.
That and not having two strikers trying to occupy the same spaces instead of feeding off each other. RvP & Rooney are the furthest thing from a Yorke & Cole combo - they literally collided with one another on one play vs WBA
And so last season they just connected constantly due to luck?
Kagawa gave the ball away in his first two touches. People here going OTT in one direction or another. He certainly didn't do anything to demand his place in the squad, but he wasn't awful either. Typical enough Kagawa performance for United. Obviously deserves a run of games ahead of Young and Valencia too.
You thought he was the best player in the team while Sir Alex thought he was playing so poorly by the end of the season that he needed to play in midfield to play himself back into form? I find that completely bizarre. I'm not sure you'll find anyone else who thinks he was even close to van Persie last year.
Van Persie was one of the best 5 players in the world last season, imo. He totally mesmerized me with his hold up play, ability to get others involved, touch, technique, attitude, desire and goal scoring ability. He was the single biggest reason we won the title last season.
A season where he has had some of his old injury troubles and in which the whole team has struggled, and now we play our best football without him? Is it possible that during the last 20 minutes Brum were visibly tired and chasing the game after being down? How about more open spaces to move the ball in the opposition half?
A season where he has had some of his old injury troubles and in which the whole team has struggled, and now we play our best football without him? Is it possible that during the last 20 minutes Brum were visibly tired and chasing the game after being down? How about more open spaces to move the ball in the opposition half?
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