You think we look different now?
The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I think LVG has really been hamstrung by the amount of injuries, especially on the defensive side. Whatever system he prefers or plays, the constant state of flux among the defenders would hamper any week to week improvements. Honestly believe he'd rather play 4 at the back, preferably with Smalling & Rojo in the center (see the solid run we had with those two anchoring the back), but the whole lot are as brittle as a sheet of ice. Plus, I don't think he's fully sold on Evans & Jones which has cost them their confidence. TBH, I think SAF left his successors a bunch of decent to very good utilitymen with some stars sprinkled about, but SAF had instilled such a aura of belief that they outperformed. Kind of like the Emperor in Star Wars, where he drove his underlings to rule most of space by the Force of his will. Now without that steel hand at their back, guys like Jones, Evans, Valencia, et al allow their performance to drop down to what would be their normal level.
I do think LVG has been given a lot more breathing room than the average bear. Spending 150 mil and not getting that much better than Moyes is not encouraging, but I do think he has instilled the belief for most of the players. I think the front 6 believe in what they are doing, but question if the tactics (i.e. 3-5-2) are really what is needed to provide a solid base for attack. It's shocking to see Utd tend to dominate the ball, but basically get no shots on goal. Great that our shot efficiency is through the roof, but bad that we don't get that many shots in.
I do think LVG has been given a lot more breathing room than the average bear. Spending 150 mil and not getting that much better than Moyes is not encouraging, but I do think he has instilled the belief for most of the players. I think the front 6 believe in what they are doing, but question if the tactics (i.e. 3-5-2) are really what is needed to provide a solid base for attack. It's shocking to see Utd tend to dominate the ball, but basically get no shots on goal. Great that our shot efficiency is through the roof, but bad that we don't get that many shots in.
Chelsea never had any problems..
You think so? They appointed more shite managers than good...
Is anyone keeping a list of names of the drama queens and/or impatient idiots on this forum? I would love to see it. @Damien is such a list possible?
I think we will scrape top 4, it'll be ourselves and Arsenal.
I think he will make quite a few changes in the summer and get rid of a few names i.e. Mata for example. At this stage in time I am not terribly sure as to LVGs judgement due to the fact he's freezing out the wrong players and that worries me.
I don't see top 4 being an issue under him but in terms of revamping the entire side, I can't tell if he is being pragmatic or if he just has poor judgement I.e. dropping Herrera.. is that out of some need to let Herreea recover slowly and acclimatise or if he doesn't fancy him.
This time 2016 is the best time to judge him. I think he will still be there and that is when we will have a better grasp of what he stands for and what he is about. I for one never saw him as a 352 negative manager.. the Netherlands gig was a one off and I thought he's only doing this as a means to an ends philosophy. . Not because he believes in this formation in the long term.
If by january 2016 I don't see any improvements or any significant changes in personnel or style, I will not want him here. As of now I still have faith he will turn it round.
I think he will make quite a few changes in the summer and get rid of a few names i.e. Mata for example. At this stage in time I am not terribly sure as to LVGs judgement due to the fact he's freezing out the wrong players and that worries me.
I don't see top 4 being an issue under him but in terms of revamping the entire side, I can't tell if he is being pragmatic or if he just has poor judgement I.e. dropping Herrera.. is that out of some need to let Herreea recover slowly and acclimatise or if he doesn't fancy him.
This time 2016 is the best time to judge him. I think he will still be there and that is when we will have a better grasp of what he stands for and what he is about. I for one never saw him as a 352 negative manager.. the Netherlands gig was a one off and I thought he's only doing this as a means to an ends philosophy. . Not because he believes in this formation in the long term.
If by january 2016 I don't see any improvements or any significant changes in personnel or style, I will not want him here. As of now I still have faith he will turn it round.
I trust in LVG and I do think he will come good.
I must say I dislike the 352 and I think Herrera should be starting, he makes the midfield tick but in the first game he came back from the cracked rib he was not good and I think LVG may have lost a bit of faith in him....but he was just coming back from a cracked rib and was wearing a corset thing. He needs a run of games in the side.
If we played a 3 man midfield of blind, Herrera and Di Maria we would be kicking ass as that is a midfield that can take on anyone.
Once LVG gets in the defensive replacements we require (clyne and godin for me) we'll have a decent spine for the side to build on.
I think we'll make top 4 this year and challenge for the title next year.
That's what this thread is for. So we can laugh at them in a year or so.
Or be laughed at.
I've got a list in my head of a few of the most negative, myopic drama lamas but it would be unfair to write it down here as its bound to Getsme in trouble and that would just be Insanity on my part.
You can put me on that list, I'm impatient.
I'm skeptical about the need to gut and rebuild the entire club to play a certain vision instead of (at least for now) adapting and working with what we have right now. I'm concerned about the decline or stalled development of previously talented and highly rated players after arriving at MUFC. I'm worried about some of our best players and prospects leaving.
What practical value is a manager that needs loads of time, money by the hundreds of millions, and complete control over the squad to produce results? A truly gifted manager can make do with an imperfect squad and get them punching above their weight. We have seen nothing resembling that in the last two years.
If I'm being honest I still believe LVG to be the way forward (unless Pep wants to come) but I can't help but feel underwhelmed at him so far. I have found some of his decisions odd and his use of some players poor i.e. Falcao Adnan and Herrera. We will throw money at it again in the summer and LVG won't have any excuses about philosophy or balance and must step up to the plate. We are at a crucial stage of the season and are a couple draws or a loss away from a meltdown in my opinion. If we don't make the top 4 what we were nailed on for 6 weeks ago big questions will be asked of him but I would hope he survive and get a second season minimum. Report card reads done ok but must do better.
I couldn't disagree more with that. I don't think that is the way we should operate, I think it's imperative that we plan for the middle to long term rather than patching things up in the short term to punch above our weight.
Rather than saying "well this team isn't set up for possession football" forgetting it and playing some sort of low technical game that relies on individual performances. I think we are much better off building our roots in possession football and weeding out who can and can't play it. Once Van Gaal has those foundations built and players naturally playing that game, I think he will gradually put the accelerator on and take the shackles off.
Players will start to be more confident in possession and will be more intelligent in their passing. They will know when it's time to hold the ball and when it's time to throw the dice. I think that abandoning this style of play to play a style that fits to the limitations of some of the players we have is short sighted and doesn't lay any foundations for the next few years. It's important that we have an end game rather than just nimble along just getting by.
Why do people think Pep would be the answers? He, like LvG, likes to play football from the back and biulds from the defence, so he would not be able to do this with the limited Jones, Evans, Smalling. We would be on the same merry go round we have for the last two seasons as he would want to evaluate before hiring/firing.
LVG is the answer but he needs to shape his team. It's got to be built around a solid defence, which is where we are short of top quality and leadership. Our record is only good due to the negative football we currently play to protect them.
I'm sick of shiy football but we will improve and the squad will get better. It's not footy manager.
LVG is the answer but he needs to shape his team. It's got to be built around a solid defence, which is where we are short of top quality and leadership. Our record is only good due to the negative football we currently play to protect them.
I'm sick of shiy football but we will improve and the squad will get better. It's not footy manager.
This seems like so long ago to me it seems like a blur, I'd almost forgotten I watched all this (probably because everyone says you can't pay attention to pre-season) … but it was very informative to see it again now, thank you!
At this point LvG was about a week back from the World Cup without a break (I was impressed IMA) and had not had time to implement his "philosophy" on the players which, in hindsight, seems to be:
- slow play down whenever possible,
- players off the ball should remain stationary or move sideways (but NEVER forwards)
- passing forward is forbidden when there is a chance to pass sideways (or preferably backwards)
- taking on an opposing player when there is a risk of losing the ball (lowering vital possession stats) is forbidden
Laying my chips:
1) LvG will persist bloody mindedly against all the evidence and not make the CL places … sacked
OR
2) He will finally prove he is more than just a one trick pony and start respecting our history of entertaining attacking football and we might still grab 3rd +FA cup this season, be up there battling for the league and CL next season, and naturally … treble winners in his final year when he retires at the top … Herzlich Willkommen Herr Klopp
*I see what you did there gif*
No, instead you talk about people behind their back, how am I being a 'drama Lama' BTW?
I thought Friday night vindicated Van Gaals decision to go 352 to some extent. Everybody has been crying out for the dimond 442, Januzaj to start etc and the result was arguably the worst performance of the season.
Its not like the performances when playing 352 or 442 or 433 are like day and night. They arent.
We have put poor performances because we havent had players fit, players have played in unfamiliar positions (sometimes LVG selection rather than nessecity) and we have had a lot of younger players playing along side alot of new players. The players who have been key to our success over the years in rio, vida, evra are no longer around carrick missed the first part of the season and Di Maria, Rojo, Falcao and Blind all came in late. What did people expect other than dijointed performances. We will never get consistancey until the team selection is consistant.
Whilst not being in the champions league and league cup might be a blessing in desguise retrospectivley due to the injuries the lack of games also hasnt helped getting some momentum going.
Taking the positives, he came in and quickley identified that Welbeck, Hernandez, Cleverley, Anderson, Nani, Fletcher are not up to scratch. I am sure a number of others are on the cull list too but its simply not possibly to clear out a dozen players in one go. The players which he selected in Rojo and Blind look like brilliant business at less than £30m for the pair which gives me confidence going forward in whoever we sign.
Last summer we saw half a dozen in and half a dozen out. I suspect this summer will be the same. I expect our business to be done much earlier however. Van Gaal will want his squad more or less in place when we return to pre-season, not on september 1st. I dont expect much this window, maybe this dragovic or an equivelent type signing. Pogba / Hummels etc will not be happening.
So i am still very much in the pro Van Gaal camp. We are sat in 4th with everybody moaning about performances. With the qaulity that we have we will click at some point and the performances will come. Injury situation clearing i expect that improvement to be imminant.
Lets not forget, he had a job on his hands, he said it could take a while.
Its not like the performances when playing 352 or 442 or 433 are like day and night. They arent.
We have put poor performances because we havent had players fit, players have played in unfamiliar positions (sometimes LVG selection rather than nessecity) and we have had a lot of younger players playing along side alot of new players. The players who have been key to our success over the years in rio, vida, evra are no longer around carrick missed the first part of the season and Di Maria, Rojo, Falcao and Blind all came in late. What did people expect other than dijointed performances. We will never get consistancey until the team selection is consistant.
Whilst not being in the champions league and league cup might be a blessing in desguise retrospectivley due to the injuries the lack of games also hasnt helped getting some momentum going.
Taking the positives, he came in and quickley identified that Welbeck, Hernandez, Cleverley, Anderson, Nani, Fletcher are not up to scratch. I am sure a number of others are on the cull list too but its simply not possibly to clear out a dozen players in one go. The players which he selected in Rojo and Blind look like brilliant business at less than £30m for the pair which gives me confidence going forward in whoever we sign.
Last summer we saw half a dozen in and half a dozen out. I suspect this summer will be the same. I expect our business to be done much earlier however. Van Gaal will want his squad more or less in place when we return to pre-season, not on september 1st. I dont expect much this window, maybe this dragovic or an equivelent type signing. Pogba / Hummels etc will not be happening.
So i am still very much in the pro Van Gaal camp. We are sat in 4th with everybody moaning about performances. With the qaulity that we have we will click at some point and the performances will come. Injury situation clearing i expect that improvement to be imminant.
Lets not forget, he had a job on his hands, he said it could take a while.
And ended up with the manager they got rid of in the first place.
For me this season is about rebuilding, but top 4 is a MUST. I can excuse poor perforances as frustrating as it is, as long as we get results.
Next season though I want us to start kicking on and playing GREAT football again. I can understand him being more cautious this year if it brings us CL again, but I don't want us being a low scoring cautious team.
Next season though I want us to start kicking on and playing GREAT football again. I can understand him being more cautious this year if it brings us CL again, but I don't want us being a low scoring cautious team.
I disagree that it has vindicated him playing 352. I think it was a bit of a freak result given CU played out of thier skins for 90 minutes, united had to adapt to the system whilst trying to play againt a team that would have made it difficult for any team to play football. CU were fecked after HT due to the amount of closing down and running around they did in the first half. These results happen in the FA cup, so to dismiss the diamond based on a game like this would be farsical.
I appreciate it sounds like I am making up excuses for a top class squad not getting a result, but when they come to OT and have to play on a big pitch and hopefully try and play football, they will get battered.
Janujaz was, for me, one of the bright spark on Friday night. He is tricky, got pace and a brilliant first touch. His let down was any final ball, but given that CU had some many behind the ball, it would have been very difficult to pick out a player. Our overall slow play helped CU get behind the ball in numbers, but I think this is more to do with LvG playing it safe to protect our defence - something that he needs to address.
I hope he plays 4 at the back against Leciester.
On a side note: Just seen a stat that we are currently behind Burnley as the 2nd most long balls in the league and and amazing 350+ over this stage last season. Maybe this is the philosophy?
My point was maybe not quite so clear. What i meant was that irrespective of formation, the performances are flat, we are not moving the ball quick enough and are very slow in our build up. I have said elsewhere, the formation doesnt change this. The mindset of the manager/players changes this. You can play 532 and be a very attack minded side or you can play 433 and place alot of emphsis on being tight at the back. Players make teams not formations.
there is also a stat that says we have played by far the most short passes in the league!
Wouldn't that be Manchester City?
Since we're on stats.
We're 4th in terms of accurate short passes, with City, Chelsea and Arsenal above us.
Interestingly enough, we have the least inaccurate short passes per game, only Hull can top us there.
We have completed the most accurate long balls per game in the league.
In terms of inaccurate long balls, we sit 12th. For perspective on this one, only Southampton and West Ham have played more inaccurate long balls from the top half of the table.
It feels like he either makes top 4 and changes players and system next season, or he will not be allowed to work out his contract.
This strikes me as an unfair characterisation of Van Gaal.
The easiest one to refute is the point about the money. He has never been a manager that looked to spend a lot on transfers, to the point that before he arrived people were worried he would actually reject the opportunity to spend and would instead try and improve the players he had. I cant imagine, given his history, he has been the one pushing for the massive expenditure we've seen, Im sure he is happy to improve the squad but I imagine Moyes and maybe Giggs had already convinced Woodward such spending is necessary. He may spend a bit more in the coming windows but I dont think it would be different under any other manager given the issues we have in the squad.
On the complete control of the squad point, Im not 100% sure exactly what you mean but Van Gaal is a continental manager who has worked without complete control in the past. He wouldnt have had that at Bayern, Ajax or Barca. Rather, we are a club that is used to an omnipotent manager, we are more likely to have problems adjusting to a manager who couldnt handle that level of responsibility. I believe Van Gaal does want that level of control but I dont think it is an absolutely necessary prerequisite for success. Rather it should be something that makes us quite compatible.
And lastly the time thing. He said he would need 5 months (if memory serves), it has turned out he needed a little more. It seems to me this is probably the fairest of your criticisms, I hope it is a case of good things coming for those who wait. I cant imagine many managers would have come in and changed things for us overnight, our problems were too deep rooted for that. He maybe raised expectations that he would have everyone singing from the same hymn sheet by Christmas and that hasnt happened but if he gets us 4th and has us playing coherent football next season Ill be satisfied. At the end of the day it would seem perverse to go through all the pain of half a season with a manager who says it takes time to learn his ideas, without waiting a little longer to see if it bears fruit.
"A truly gifted manager can make do with an imperfect squad and get them punching above their weight." This is what Van Gaal did at AZ, this is how I think he would characterise himself (which comes back to the point about not having a history of spending big on players, but promoting talented youngsters and turning decent players like Schweinsteiger into superstars).
I think more patience is needed but I understand why it runs thin for many people, we are now half way through a second season of constantly telling each other we have to be patient and there is only so long even the most patient person can keep it up. But I think we need to keep the faith. I said the same last year but the difference now is at least our manager has a track record of delivering so we can have a greater level of confidence he will be able to do it again.
It seems to me a lot of people, not only on here but also ex pro's, media, etc., misunderstand Van Gaal and his so called 'philosophy'. Van Gaal would prefer to play an attacking passing game in a 4-3-3 system. However, in order to play that system you need defenders who can pass and who are technically proficient. At the moment United don't possess enough of those type of defenders. And to be quite frank, there are probably very defenders in World football at the moment who have those qualities and yet could cope with the physical nature & hectic of the Premier League.
I agree with this, however we are playing defensive football against the so called weaker teams in the league, we have lost points because of this IMO. If he doesn’t have the players to play to his system then he has to play a system that suits the players and team’s strengths, not their weaknesses
He needs to take more risks when we are drawing in games, I honestly never thought I’d have to say that about LVG but it really is the case.
Where this whole arguement falls down is that, actually to play 3-5-2 and to keep posession and play a pass it out from the back type game, you need EVEN MORE defenders who can pass the ball and who are technically proficient.
The whole thing is a fallacy.
So, laying your chips on the table .. he might fail, but he might succeed.
Hats off, ballsiest call I've seen in a long while.
Its not an easy debate to put your "chips on the table" for. I think this is because whilst LVG is clearly a top class manager with a great CV, he's nearing the end of the career. Does that make him more or less determined to want to finish on a high?? I'd like to think "more", but if it doesnt work out he'll shrug those famous shoulders of his and talk about Bayern & Barca instead
We'll finish in the top four, and either win the FA Cup or lose in the final.
Like was said in the OP, I think we'll spend big in the summer on defence, pace in attack and another MF ala Strootman/Vidal.
Although saying that, I'd go as far to say as long as we finish above 7th LVG will keep his job.
Like was said in the OP, I think we'll spend big in the summer on defence, pace in attack and another MF ala Strootman/Vidal.
Although saying that, I'd go as far to say as long as we finish above 7th LVG will keep his job.
Disagreed. I think this is pretty stupid to think that a simple change of formation will make us playing better. Most people on the caf “hate” 3-5-2 but that’s a shorthand. There’s nothing wrong with any formation if you have players who feel comfortable in it. Our problem is that we, or rather van Gaal, chose the wrong players to do job that they are not suited to- whatever formation we use. I’ve been saying this for a long time, any formation with all of Mata, Rooney, RvP, Falcao will not work in the EPL. They are too similar to each other and lack in the same areas.
That’s true, joining the club after the WC and short preseason hadn’t helper either. There is a lot of things that went wrong, including injuries at the start of the season, but I think that he had enough time to build something. So far I don’t see a progress but at least results are decent.
That I agree with 100%.
That’s exactly the point that makes me a little annoyed. We all agree that we have defenders who are not very good on the ball. So, the most obvious solution would be to just build a midfield that can collect the ball from them and take care of the rest. But what do we do? We just play there Carrick on his own and a bunch of players who just stand in line with the opposition defenders. Or we just throw Mata and Rooney there. I honestly don’t know what makes him think they are good midfielders, Rooney has a good long passing ability but not sure what’s the case with Mata. Another LvG idea is Januzaj in the middle and Di Maria up front. Baffling decision making if you ask me.
In my view van Gaal has not addressed our issues. I generally disagree with his idea for the team so far. The diamond is not perfect, but we had no problems in building from the back. What I would do is to try to use players in their preferred positions and find a balance defensively. I seriously don’t think we would be that bad with Blind/Carrick behind Rafael, Shaw, Smalling and Rojo. They are good defenders, just too much is being asked from our CBs right now. And seriously, there are literally a few (if any) defenders who would excel in our current system.
The funny thing is, our defence has been blamed for most of our problems, but recently not because they can’t defend, but because they don’t move with the ball forward. Any setup that allows (or forces) Phil Jones to move with the ball up to opposition box (because no other options are available) is idiotic in my opinion.
You don’t need suberb ball playing defenders to play 4-3-3. However, 3-5-2 is probably the only setup that actually requires CBs to travel forward with the ball and good passing skills. Which makes his decision to stick to it even more bizarre.
I trust he will come good, but to do that IMO he has to change his approach. Right now the results are okay, but we play one of the worst football around, despite having (at least) top 5 squad. Don’t think anyone would disagree with that.
That essentially was our midfield in the Leicester game.
Yes but we played Evans-Blackett (who was sent off) as CBs and Rojo as LB. I agree with your point but there are a lot of aspects that have to be considered in Leicester tragedy.
I think the list of players that @finneh posted in another thread highlighted the amount of dross that has been hanging around Old Trafford for the past few years. LVG did not inherit the 99 squad or the 08 squad.
He's spent a lot on top class players for sure but until he properly addresses the defence (again something I believe he was misinformed on due to how they performed in pre-season) he's overcompensating with an extra man. It's fair to say we are being linked mostly with defenders this window so hopefully its a sign we will be bringing in top class talent. If we get to the point of having a rock solid defence (a la Ferdinand / Vidic, Bruce Pallister) then we can then be a lot less cautious.
As annoying and difficult to watch as it is, if we dont have sufficient players available to defend on their own and allow AdM to roam freely up front as Ronaldo did then we're not going to see the best of the players we have. I reckon though its a temporary issue and one we will throw enough money at to fix.
He's spent a lot on top class players for sure but until he properly addresses the defence (again something I believe he was misinformed on due to how they performed in pre-season) he's overcompensating with an extra man. It's fair to say we are being linked mostly with defenders this window so hopefully its a sign we will be bringing in top class talent. If we get to the point of having a rock solid defence (a la Ferdinand / Vidic, Bruce Pallister) then we can then be a lot less cautious.
As annoying and difficult to watch as it is, if we dont have sufficient players available to defend on their own and allow AdM to roam freely up front as Ronaldo did then we're not going to see the best of the players we have. I reckon though its a temporary issue and one we will throw enough money at to fix.
Exactly, there is a back 4 there containing players who have played champions league finals, world cup finals and won league titles.
I have posted a number of times that i see our strongest side being:-
-----------De Gea------------
Rafa----Smalling--Rojo----Shaw
---------carrick----Blind---------
---------------Mata----------------
-------Rooney--------------Di Maria
---------------Falcao---------------
4 at the back. Everyboody in their strongest position. I have rooney tooked in from the right and linking up with mata and falcao as i think rafa operates best like that. Shaw on the otherhand looks more comfortable backing up a winger. The back four is protected with two players very comfortable on the ball. Its got pace and width along with technical possession footballers. Shaw and Rafa can bomb on together with carrick or blind dropping in (effectivley forming a 3 at the back).....its balanced in terms of attack and defence and also right and left footers. It has as many of our best players in the side at any1 time. Its adaptable.......janauzaj, fellaini could be introduced to offer a slight tweak.
I have contradicted myself a little in that i think herrera should be starting. However thats based on current performances. I think our performances both individually and collectivley would dramatically improve based on that team. As performances do pick up Herrera can force his way in over carrick or blind if we want to be a bit more attacking, or in place of mata to offer a bit more defensivley. As i say, its adaptable.
I doubt even the most attack minded managers would play that midfield 3. Q