The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips

I am losing faith in LVG. Same problem as with Moyes, opposition teams are not scared of us.
I think he was a lot braver against Leicester, I'm hoping that's not simply to do with us being at home and playing the bottom team. Not having looked at the stats I'd imagine we haven't played as many forward balls in many games this season, especially the last 10 or so games.
Unlike Moyes last year, I'm hoping LVG learns from his mistakes.
 
If an English team wins Europa then only the top 3 qualify for Champions League, yes?

Could that be the reason why Woodward said it has to be a top 3 finish this year?
No, don't believe so. It would be 5 English teams in the Champions League.
 
This season is our transition from the Fergie era. Clearing out the deadwood, replenishing the squad and introducing a new style of play. It's painful to watch at times, but a necessary process to move forward.

I haven't been happy with all of the performances, and the insistence on using a 3-5-2 is baffling. Still, sitting third, 5 points behind City (with a return game at OT) while dealing with a MASH unit is impressive.

LvG isn't perfect-but he's more than capable to manage a team of United's scale. There'll no doubt be twists and turns, but in two years' time he'll get United where it should be-among Europe's elite.
 
I think he was a lot braver against Leicester, I'm hoping that's not simply to do with us being at home and playing the bottom team. Not having looked at the stats I'd imagine we haven't played as many forward balls in many games this season, especially the last 10 or so games.
Unlike Moyes last year, I'm hoping LVG learns from his mistakes.
I know it may be a little unfair on LVG but Leicester on the weekend were missing 3 or more of their key players and are sitting in the relegation zone. I expected more from us and to me we looked less than convincing. We had to rely on an offside goal and an own goal to get 3 against them. Fingers crossed that things will get better.
 
This season is our transition from the Fergie era. Clearing out the deadwood, replenishing the squad and introducing a new style of play. It's painful to watch at times, but a necessary process to move forward.

I haven't been happy with all of the performances, and the insistence on using a 3-5-2 is baffling. Still, sitting third, 5 points behind City (with a return game at OT) while dealing with a MASH unit is impressive.

LvG isn't perfect-but he's more than capable to manage a team of United's scale. There'll no doubt be twists and turns, but in two years' time he'll get United where it should be-among Europe's elite.
There is getting Utd where it should be and there is also getting Utd playing the way we should play. We are starting to look as dull as Dave Sextons Utd.
 
There is getting Utd where it should be and there is also getting Utd playing the way we should play. We are starting to look as dull as Dave Sextons Utd.

LvG was hired knowing he has a certain, um, philosophy. He has said he's not happy with the way the team is playing. Nonetheless, the team is in third place. LvG is not a proponent of tumescent play; over time he either will get in players who can execute his preferred style of play or get existing players to learn and execute the style.

What we're seeing this year is the coach building the airplane at the same time it's taking off. It's messy-but this season is not the end state LvG has in mind. if we're still grinding out results at home next season, after another summer's purchases and additional time for players to get even more familiar with his style of play, then I'll be worried. As for this season, it's all about getting back into Europe for me. I'll forego style points for that.
 
LvG was hired knowing he has a certain, um, philosophy. He has said he's not happy with the way the team is playing. Nonetheless, the team is in third place. LvG is not a proponent of tumescent play; over time he either will get in players who can execute his preferred style of play or get existing players to learn and execute the style.

What we're seeing this year is the coach building the airplane at the same time it's taking off. It's messy-but this season is not the end state LvG has in mind. if we're still grinding out results at home next season, after another summer's purchases and additional time for players to get even more familiar with his style of play, then I'll be worried. As for this season, it's all about getting back into Europe for me. I'll forego style points for that.
Yes, you are right, thats the key thing in reality at this point
 
Sure, we'll take the points however we can get them, but if we keep playing meh football we're not going to get the points. We'll drop down to fifth or sixth and we'll be very unhappy about becoming the next Liverpool.
 
If we keep playing this way, which has seen us lose once in our last 15 games? The way that has seen us progress up the table and are now 5 points behind City?

The point is, we never look like losing. We control possession, we look boring as hell, but we've got quality to get the goals we need. The short sightedness on this forum really is quite worrying.
 
Really needs to get a fixed 11, of players so they can get used to playing with each other, and improve, instead of nonstop changing and playing players in different positions

With City and Chelsea you can almost always predict their first 11 barring injury

For our team only thing is certain he has to incorporate all 3 strikers, even if it means playing Rooney in midfield
 
If an English team wins Europa then only the top 3 qualify for Champions League, yes?

Could that be the reason why Woodward said it has to be a top 3 finish this year?

Top three automatically qualify, fourth has to go through preliminary rounds so in accounting terms you can't count of the Champions League money until the end of the summer when you know if you have qualified.
 
Really needs to get a fixed 11, of players so they can get used to playing with each other, and improve, instead of nonstop changing and playing players in different positions

With City and Chelsea you can almost always predict their first 11 barring injury

For our team only thing is certain he has to incorporate all 3 strikers, even if it means playing Rooney in midfield
I agree. At one point he needs to have a system and starting XI to usually play with and only change if it's really necessary.
Great to see us play with more urgancy and not a 352 formation, I bet we would have played better lately if he had us play like that for the last 5 weeks or so
 
Really needs to get a fixed 11, of players so they can get used to playing with each other, and improve, instead of nonstop changing and playing players in different positions

I agree that should always be an aim, but those teams are pretty much the finished article right now. Last season it was much harder to name Chelsea's first team for example, there were question marks in lots of positions.
 
Van Gaal to turn United into a possession based team, and they'll end up better for it.
 
If an English team wins Europa then only the top 3 qualify for Champions League, yes?

Could that be the reason why Woodward said it has to be a top 3 finish this year?

If Arsenal win the CL (and finish 5th) and Spurs/Liverpool/Everton win the Europa (and finish 6th) then 4th place misses out I think.
 
I genuinely dislike this guy. I said from before the match that the team looked unbalanced. We were clearly playing absolutely dire, yet he waits until the 70th minute to make a change. And only one change at that. He's full of shit and I don't think this guy will ever make us into a top team again.
 
I genuinely dislike this guy. I said from before the match that the team looked unbalanced. We were clearly playing absolutely dire, yet he waits until the 70th minute to make a change. And only one change at that. He's full of shit and I don't think this guy will ever make us into a top team again.

:lol::lol: I was pissed at him.

I think we have somewhat stumbled across playing these players and this system but nevertheless, it's happened and so I am happy. Long may it continue because the shit on a stick football we were playing for a good portion of the season left me with little hope. Onward and upwards I hope.
 
:lol::lol: I was pissed at him.

I think we have somewhat stumbled across playing these players and this system but nevertheless, it's happened and so I am happy. Long may it continue because the shit on a stick football we were playing for a good portion of the season left me with little hope. Onward and upwards I hope.

I agree just like he stumbled across it at Bayern, Barcelona, Netherlands, AZ Alkamaar and Ajax. Or maybe he knew what he was doing all along?

After the first 10 matches he has 52 points in 22 matches, across 38 games that's 90 points, he has maintained that title winning form for 22 games this season. I think he can be forgiven for needing 10 matches to get the team getting results in what is a difficult method of football and also for prioritising results over performances at the board's request of top four but nonetheless eventually getting the team performing. I don't think it's fair to say he has somewhat stumbled across something that works.
 
I think we have somewhat stumbled across playing these players and this system but nevertheless, it's happened and so I am happy.

I see what you mean but, you know that he didn't stumbled onto this system.

It's his favorite system, he always played like that when he had the opportunity to do it, he used this system against Chelsea and City, too.
Van gaal only tried to exploit all his roster, he tried to find a way to use all his strikers and the #10s, he probably tried that for a too long period, though.
 
I was preaching patience back in January and now look pretty damn wise, even if I do say so myself.

I have to be honest, I'm a fan of his, I trust his talent as a coach, but the way he compromised himself regarding the strikers made me fear that he changed and that he wasn't the same old Van gaal. I wanted him to stay but I was worried.
 
Would anyone let him go this summer if it meant bringing Klopp in? I don't think I would and I know it won't happen but it is tempting given LVG at best will likely only be here 2 more seasons and Klopp could be a long term solution.
 
Would anyone let him go this summer if it meant bringing Klopp in? I don't think I would but it is tempting given LVG at best will likely only be here 2 more seasons and Klopp could be a long term solution.
No. I don't get this obsession with Klopp. Sure he's a fantastic tactical manager and great man management, but LVG is too.
Give LVG the time he needs and he'll set up something that a host of managers could follow into, including Klopp if it should arise.
 
No shame in being nervous, you can be patient while being nervous.

I was patient, but I am the type of person who needs to look at other options when I'm worried, I don't intend to use them but knowing that they are available is reassuring.
 
I expect us to continue playing 3-5-2 the rest of the season changing to the diamond only when we're pushing for a goal. Its based on him not trusting the CBs we have and that isnt going to change before the summer. It'l be pretty dull to watch but should get better with time.

I expect us to either sneak into the CL places or just fail to do so this season.

In the summer, a top CM, a pacy striker and 1 or maybe even 2 CBs.

Then a move to 4 at the back next season with good attacking football and much better results as well.

Came earlier than I expected but I've always trusted him. He's a top drawer manager.
 
Would anyone let him go this summer if it meant bringing Klopp in? I don't think I would and I know it won't happen but it is tempting given LVG at best will likely only be here 2 more seasons and Klopp could be a long term solution.

Nope, what Van Gaal is doing here will hold us in good stead for years to come, he's laying down a rock solid foundation. A Guardiola can come in, tweak it a bit an simply carry on. Klopp's style is much more different and anyone following him needs to change it.

I'd rather our players learnt a possession based style than a counter attacking one.
 
Would anyone let him go this summer if it meant bringing Klopp in? I don't think I would and I know it won't happen but it is tempting given LVG at best will likely only be here 2 more seasons and Klopp could be a long term solution.
Nope. It means starting over again when we've just got settled. There's no promise that Klopp would be a long term replacement either, one season outside the top 4 will cost him his job and that could very well happen in his first year.
 
Brilliant read looking back, just what I hoped for. A lot of usually sensible posters showing absolutely no patience or appreciation for the difficult task he had and what he was trying to achieve.

It's just a shame that people can't admit they were wrong about him and are now peddling the line that he's got to where we are now by fluke and he should have listened to them all along.

A few points to add about that:

Firstly, Carrick wasn't availiable for much of the season.

Secondly, the defense were not in the slightest bit drilled yet and couldn't be trusted like they can now.

Thirdly, Herrera hadn't yet figured out how to play in Van Gaal's system. You only have to look at Carragher's analysis on how compact and organised we are to realise that having a player chasing the ball all over the place isn't a good thing. It creates pockets of space and that screws up the whole system.

Fourthly, he had the best part of £500k/week worth of talent to try and figure out how to play. You can't just dismiss that without even trying to make it work. He's had £280k of that talent availiable for a long time now and has made the decision to bench him, that's not stumbling on anything, that's a big decision.

Fifthly, how many on here would have chosen Mata on the right and Young on the left? A vast majority would have played Januzaj right, Mata at 10 and stuck with Di Maria over Young.

Sixthly (:nervous:), Valencia at right back has been a revelation. Rafael fans and Valencia critics will deny it but he has been brilliant for a while now.


He's doing a brilliant job, people can pull up things they disagree with and use it against him but the biggest thing in his favour is how he has coached these players to play. It doesn't matter what formation you put out there, it matters how they actually kick the ball and how they move. He's trained them to do both brilliantly.
 
I see what you mean but, you know that he didn't stumbled onto this system.

It's his favorite system, he always played like that when he had the opportunity to do it, he used this system against Chelsea and City, too.
Van gaal only tried to exploit all his roster, he tried to find a way to use all his strikers and the #10s, he probably tried that for a too long period, though.
I agree just like he stumbled across it at Bayern, Barcelona, Netherlands, AZ Alkamaar and Ajax. Or maybe he knew what he was doing all along?

After the first 10 matches he has 52 points in 22 matches, across 38 games that's 90 points, he has maintained that title winning form for 22 games this season. I think he can be forgiven for needing 10 matches to get the team getting results in what is a difficult method of football and also for prioritising results over performances at the board's request of top four but nonetheless eventually getting the team performing. I don't think it's fair to say he has somewhat stumbled across something that works.

So you think he would have played Rooney up front on his own had it not been for RVP's injury or Falcao's incompetence? Yeah of course I don't mean that he never used this formation but we have only been playing in this system recently, and I think some of it is down to players being unavailable. Otherwise, I'd question why it took him so long. Stumbled is probably the wrong word but it certainly didn't come across as carefully planned out.
 
So you think he would have played Rooney up front on his own had it not been for RVP's injury or Falcao's incompetence? Yeah of course I don't mean that he never used this formation but we have only been playing in this system recently, and I think some of it is down to players being unavailable. Otherwise, I'd question why it took him so long. Stumbled is probably the wrong word but it certainly didn't come across as carefully planned out.

He used this system when he had Van persie available, though.( against City and Chelsea). But for management reasons, he couldn't bench Van Persie and Falcao without giving them a fair chance.
People like you and me, think that we would have benched them, but we are wrong, we would have shoehorned them until death, because they are Van Persie and Falcao. I've said this summer that Van Persie and Rooney should only play 50% of the games, but how can anyone do that without a totally objective reason.

Yes, Van Persie injury and Di Maria suspension were a blessing because they gave Van gaal, an objective reason to play Mata over Di Maria in a position that isn't his and it allowed Rooney to show that he was clearly better alone upfront, the last point is interesting because on this board at least half of the posters think that he is a #10 and that he isn't good as a lone striker.
 
I was patient, but I am the type of person who needs to look at other options when I'm worried, I don't intend to use them but knowing that they are available is reassuring.
Similarly, I dont think looking around at the options was a bad thing either. Planning, or considering all options, is never a bad idea. For me the divide here is the people who said "This is shit, Van Gaal OUT" versus those who said, "we need to give him more time." Even if, as you give him more time, you think about what you will do if he doesnt turn it around.

At the end of the day we are all just fans talking shit on the internet, it doesnt matter either way. And it comes down to peoples' personalities, the pessimists versus the optimists, the patient versus the impatient, those who like winning versus those who like entertainment. There is no right and wrong, just different mentalities.
 
He used this system when he had Van persie available, though.( against City and Chelsea). But for management reasons, he couldn't bench Van Persie and Falcao without giving them a fair chance.
People like you and me, think that we would have benched them, but we are wrong, we would have shoehorned them until death, because they are Van Persie and Falcao. I've said this summer that Van Persie and Rooney should only play 50% of the games, but how can anyone do that without a totally objective reason.

And we preformed reasonably well against City and Chelsea. At the start of the season, it was understandable, yet he continued it for too long and was playing unbalanced sides. This was in February, against Burnley (h) and West Ham (a) we started Di Maria, Rooney, Falcao, Van Persie, Januzaj and Blind. If that's not an unbalance front 6, then I don't know what is. This was with both Herrera and Fellaini sat on the bench.

Like I said, the shoehorning was understandable for a short period of time but he was doing this in February too.
 
I was one of Moyes staunchest supporters on the caf last season, hoping a similar turn-around to what we're seeing now would happen. Was gutted when it never happened, and it made me realise that there would be no fairy tale. I think that's why I was a bit more conservative about Van Gaal this season, but boy has he turned it around. The last few games have filled me with the same ridiculous hope I had with Moyes last year, that we will win the title this season.

However I know that winning the title nigh-impossible. However, I'm positive that we will challenge strongly for the title next season and in the Champions League, and in Van Gaal's last few years as a manager, it will be LVG vs Mourinho for English supremacy. I'm confident that LVG is the man to take us forward and set us up perfectly for Giggs (Who I'm positive will be our next manager).
 
It's funny looking back at what people were complaining back then. Not to mention that we were placed 4th then, the lack of patience is astounding.

It's even funnier to see people insisting that LVG stumbled upon this run by pure luck. If being a football manager is all about playing certain players in certain formations then every Tom, Dick and Harry have a shot at being one.
 
I've found this backlash a bit weird tbh.

LVG arrived to a club with a long list of problems to sort out and a squad with several years of significant under-investment to do it with. One by one he's ticked off some of the problems on the list and got us to a position where we're well in with a chance of finishing 3rd or 4th.

He's bought in 5 new players, all of whom have been an improvement on what we had. He also brought in a loanee, who hasn't really worked out, but with bringing him in on loan (and considering his goalscoring record in the past) it was hardly a wild gamble.

Of the players he got rid of, can't say any of them have proven him wrong so far.

We're still stuck with some players we'd like to upgrade, but man, we got rid of 10 and brought in 6. That's a pretty epic changeover. Sure we could have upgraded Jones, Evans, Rafael, Valencia, Young & Fletcher. But is it realistic to get rid of 15+ players and bring in 10 to 15 new ones? At what cost? That would be crazy. These things take a couple of seasons.

The players repect the manager, seem committed & we seem to have a happy camp. We've had none of that talk we had last year about key players unhappy, dressing room fall outs, all that nonsense. And just as importantly the manager seems at home in a club the size of ours, rather than looking intimidated by the job.

He started badly in the first 5 games, but then stabilised. Since losing to Leicester we've won 10, drawn 5, lost 2. That kind of form is perfectly acceptable for this season. Indeed when you look at our results, only the Southampton and Villa games jump out as missed opportunities during that run. I totally understand that after a run of wins its unnerving when you then lose, particularly when you see Liverpool and Arsenal on the up. But its not like our form has gone out of the window. I dont see a team low on confidence all of a sudden.

He's started to address the problem with an inability to keep possession that we've all moaned about at times over the years. Indeed the style of football he's going for should be a lot more longlasting than what we saw under Fergie, because it doesn't need Fergie to make it work.

The football has been a bit dull at times, no doubt. Even then people have over-egged it, we've also played some fine football. But ignoring that, LVG knows how crucial it is it to get winning. Crucial to finish top 4, but also crucial to get into the habit of winning. Nothing delivers good football like high confidence, and nothing breeds confidence like winning. This is a team that had forgotten how to win under adversity last season.

Sure there's a way to go - we need more commitment to attack, we need to play the ball out from the back without needing 5+ defensive players, we need pace up front, we need a straight upgrade in quality in defensive areas and we need to juggle the squad around to end up with more round pegs in round holes.

But its only been six months. Is that really so little to have achieved in that time that people are beginning to judge him as a failure? Are we really saying that he should have sorted every single problem in the club out in that time? Or are we saying that wide open football is so important that it alone outweighs every other thing he's done right?

I'm quite content with how its gone so far. Lots more work to do, but that's to be expected. And if we go backwards, then of course we're stuffed. But when is that ever not the case?

This post - from the first page of the thread - is a real beacon of sanity amongst all the negativity.

Was kind of hoping I'd have posted something similar but, alas and alack...