The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips

NL Max said:
If they don't get this urgency by knowing van Gaal is watching and Giggs is shouting at them then that's a problem from the players. If van Gaal doesn't prefer to do it and sends Giggs I doubt any player will think 'well it's not van Gaal, he's 10 meters further away from Giggs so I can keep continueing what I'm doing and ignore Giggs'. I think it's much more important that the message gets across so they can get on with the game.

Frank de Boer shouts alot, but he's not van Gaal. His teams also are much younger and need guidance much more, van Gaal is a manager who prepares a match into extreme details with homework and everything, he trusts his players to perform afterwards. This is also a form of pressure.
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Well tbf I have seen Giggs doing that barely, and at the end of the day I see Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger, Carlo Ancelotti all doing it, I doubt sitting there all match and season helps either. How does he express himself when he's unhappy with our play? By sitting therr, and watching sad for 90 min? That doesnt help either.

Sometimes even LVG can get outmastered tactically, if you have to change the approach during the latter stages of the match, do the players have to just figure it out on their own? Even if he isnt that manager anymore (has done this in the past always, why would you suddenly stop), I really cant rember if LVG has even been on the sidelines once, its just weird for a manager to me.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Well tbf I have seen Giggs doing that barely, and at the end of the day I see Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger, Carlo Ancelotti all doing it, I doubt sitting there all match and season helps either. How does he express himself when he's unhappy with our play? By sitting therr, and watching sad for 90 min? That doesnt help either.

Sometimes even LVG can get outmastered tactically, if you have to change the approach during the latter stages of the match, do the players have to just figure it out on their own? Even if he isnt that manager anymore (has done this in the past always, why would you suddenly stop), I really cant rember if LVG has even been on the sidelines once, its just weird for a manager to me.
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I've seen Giggs on the line pretty much every game, and van Gaal occasionally too. I remember van Gaal giving instructions during either CP or WBA game. So that's how he does it, either he walks up there for a second but usually Giggs does it for him. If you really care that much about it you might need to pay more attention to it, he doesn't just do things during halftime.

He's changed tactics many times already this season, doubt the players knew via telepathy.
 
NL Max said:
I've seen Giggs on the line pretty much every game, and van Gaal occasionally too. I remember van Gaal giving instructions during either CP or WBA game. So that's how he does it, either he walks up there for a second but usually Giggs does it for him. If you really care that much about it you might need to pay more attention to it, he doesn't just do things during halftime.

He's changed tactics many times already this season, doubt the players knew via telepathy.
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It's very very rare for him to do it, it isnt a must but I also dont know why he has decided to almost remove it from his mamagement. We more often change in halftime than during a match, how often have we persists with keeping to cross at all times when it brings us close to nothing. When our plan A is found out (teams who know how to park the bus and shut us down), we keep going for the same same same route, I've rarely see us playing more opportunistic, grabbing chances, we'll continue to pass the ball backwards and backwards and then waiting for an opening.
 
Sammyjunn said:
It's very very rare for him to do it, it isnt a must but I also dont know why he has decided to almost remove it from his mamagement. We more often change in halftime than during a match, how often have we persists with keeping to cross at all times when it brings us close to nothing. When our plan A is found out (teams who know how to park the bus and shut us down), we keep going for the same same same route, I've rarely see us playing more opportunistic, grabbing chances, we'll continue to pass the ball backwards and backwards and then waiting for an opening.
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Well that's his playstyle, carefull passing from the back and don't give up on plan A immediately. A match is won over 90 minutes, he wants control and doesn't go gung-ho (plan B) quickly if there's still time left. It's not a lack of coaching but his playstyle.

During halftime he can give some real instructions which he wouldn't be able to do in a filled stadium during a match. If he needs to change before/after that he will, usually it's Giggs with a couple of players but I've seen van Gaal often enough doing it himself. If things are going well he doesn't have to get up either, which is a good sign to the players.

He's been able to get his messages across the whole season via Giggs, has even been getting up himself more lately, so I really don't know why he's still getting this criticism.
 
NL Max said:
Well that's his playstyle, carefull passing from the back and don't give up on plan A immediately. A match is won over 90 minutes, he wants control and doesn't go gung-ho (plan B) quickly if there's still time left. It's not a lack of coaching but his playstyle.

During halftime he can give some real instructions which he wouldn't be able to do in a filled stadium during a match. If he needs to change before/after that he will, usually it's Giggs with a couple of players but I've seen van Gaal often enough doing it himself. If things are going well he doesn't have to get up either, which is a good sign to the players.

He's been able to get his messages across the whole season via Giggs, has even been getting up himself more lately, so I really don't know why he's still getting this criticism.
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Well sometimes you have to recognize that something doesnt work and be flexible to adapt that, ofcourse idealistically teams will adapt to you, cause they cant cope. But when you're outclassed tactically and during a match you see plan A doesnt work, to be flexible to accustom is the very least that can be acquired of a top manager. It happens everywhere on world football and on every level, apart from Guardiola's Barcelona whicj was the most dominant team ever. The Barcelona, Chelsea, Real, Bayern of now, all have different tactics and style of play they use during a match. Barcelona has been countering this season often enough, Chelsea too decide to control a match or kill it off for example. If you are so inflexible, you'll be found out in no time, something that has happened often enough already. Apart from Fellaini ball, theres no different tactic we refer to, that's a liability in world football.

Even your club PSV, people refer to them as a counter attacking club but that isnt true, they dominate play just like Ajax does, but when it doesnt work, they can counter attack, play more opportunistic. We cant or have been doing it barely, apart from Fellaini-ball ofcourse.
 
ravelston said:
Are you referring to the Cantona, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Stam, Schmeichel, etc. era or the Van der Saar, Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, etc. era when you're talking about the inferior players?
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Nah surely he means the likes of Bruce, Van Nistelrooy, Cole, Yorke, Ince, Pallaster and Bryan Robson?
 
Sammyjunn said:
Even if it helps short term, it's worth doing it. I think it stimulates some kind of urgency, when the coach is shouting/ giving directions. I see every top manager doing it nowadays, so why not? Does it have a negative effect?
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You ought to see that clip of Moyes shouting at Wayne.

What if the manager's shouting is not heard or or, worse, is ignored? What sort of effect will it have then?

What if, amid the cacophony in the stadium, he is misheard or his messages/signals are misinterpreted?

I think it is understandable for fans to want the manager to look 'passionate', to appear to be rallying the troops, especially when things are not going well, but there is no reason to believe such actions work; it is even possible they could have a negative impact.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Well sometimes you have to recognize that something doesnt work and be flexible to adapt that, ofcourse idealistically teams will adapt to you, cause they cant cope. But when you're outclassed tactically and during a match you see plan A doesnt work, to be flexible to accustom is the very least that can be acquired of a top manager. It happens everywhere on world football and on every level, apart from Guardiola's Barcelona whicj was the most dominant team ever. The Barcelona, Chelsea, Real, Bayern of now, all have different tactics and style of play they use during a match. Barcelona has been countering this season often enough, Chelsea too decide to control a match or kill it off for example. If you are so inflexible, you'll be found out in no time, something that has happened often enough already. Apart from Fellaini ball, theres no different tactic we refer to, that's a liability in world football.

Even your club PSV, people refer to them as a counter attacking club but that isnt true, they dominate play just like Ajax does, but when it doesnt work, they can counter attack, play more opportunistic. We cant or have been doing it barely, apart from Fellaini-ball ofcourse.
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It's true that sometimes he needs to change his tactics, but van Gaal is a perfectionist. He always has a plan B and plan C, this won't need much explaining since he trains on this. The players will know what is expected of them and will only need the instruction signal to change, I doubt Fellaini up top with RvP and Rooney in midfield was his plan A. He's been able to get his change in tactics across to the players the whole season now, with a 2 minute exception of the derby vs City (too loud) when Carrick went off injured. He doesn't need to stand on the line himself to change tactics, Giggs can do this.

PSV are a counter attacking team. They don't press like Ajax to keep the ball and focus on their position, they rather sit back and counter with their rapid players. If they've got the ball they will look for a goal too, but they don't care about possesion.
 
RedChip said:
You ought to see that clip of Moyes shouting at Wayne.

What if the manager's shouting is not heard or or, worse, is ignored? What sort of effect will it have then?

What if, amid the cacophony in the stadium, he is misheard or his messages/signals are misinterpreted?

I think it is understandable for fans to want the manager to look 'passionate', to appear to be rallying the troops, especially when things are not going well, but there is no reason to believe such actions work; it is even possible they could have a negative impact.
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Well I think that barely happens, almost all managers do that, if that happened frequently, it would surely be found out already.
 
NL Max said:
It's true that sometimes he needs to change his tactics, but van Gaal is a perfectionist. He always has a plan B and plan C, this won't need much explaining since he trains on this. The players will know what is expected of them and will only need the instruction signal to change, I doubt Fellaini up top with RvP and Rooney in midfield was his plan A. He's been able to get his change in tactics across to the players the whole season now, with a 2 minute exception of the derby vs City (too loud) when Carrick went off injured. He doesn't need to stand on the line himself to change tactics, Giggs can do this.

PSV are a counter attacking team. They don't press like Ajax to keep the ball and focus on their position, they rather sit back and counter with their rapid players. If they've got the ball they will look for a goal too, but they don't care about possesion.
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So Giggs rather is his walking boy? Besides bringing across the tactics, it has no harm to drive your team forwards, to attack, to bring in urgency. I dont think it's a coincidence that we had that far more under Fergie of Mourinho who also implementated that in his style, even if it's a mental kick in the arse, it can help. Best example is Simeone, how often has he driven his team to go that extra mile in latter stages of the match, it also causes the crowd to stand behind the team more, create more heat. And it isnt like this should be a weekly thing, but Im really surprised about the passive attitude of LVG during this season, and this isnt one of the major problems I have with him, but once in a while, surely you can expect it? Maybe it's just me feeling sentiment about SAF's United.
 
LvG is 63 years old, with a bad hip, he doesn't speak the language great, and people complain he doesn't get up all the time to go tell the players something. Giggs is fine doing it and can do it just as coherently if not more.
 
I think a lot of the undecided crowd don't fully appreciate the scale of LVG's job here. Cast your mind back to where we were this time last year and how we were getting absolutely dicked on by teams that had no business of doing so. We were a shell of a team and indeed, a shell of a club. Van Gaal has come in and predominantly using players who had been available to Moyes, has stabilised us enough to get top 4. Not only that, he has been in the process of totally transforming the way we play the game, and improving us tactically. Rather than the relatively basic 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 we had under Fergie and Moyes, we're now playing a possession sytem, while also getting to grips with multiple systems which will no doubt be used when necessary at potentially any point during games, never mind the season. That is LVG's overall aim with his philosophy: for us to be able to be flexible and be able to play in a variety of fashions.
During this period of transition we have also beaten almost all our immediate rivals for a top 4 slot and have shown we can compete with the best team in the league in both matches we have come up against them. Which is in stark contrast to the horror shows we had home and away against City, Liverpool and away against Chelsea. Furthermore, LVG has got the team believing in themselves again. I still shudder when I think back to the days of Moyes setting us up to be difficult to fecking beat against Newcastle, FFS! We are now winning points when we have been poor. Our resolve and confidence is back. We genuinely can't put a price on that, and it is a quality which will be invaluable come next season.

Is his job done? Of course not, and because of the injuries and late start because of the World Cup, he entered the job in less than ideal circumstances to say the least. He could not make any real improvements to a defence which was shorn of three quarters of a Champions League winning defence, simply because he did not have the time to do so. He could only make one midfield signing, when we all knew it was only half or even a third of the job done. While he has also been dealt the potentially killer blow of having the 300 grand a week albatross named Wayne Rooney land on him, as well as the unforeseen dip that RVP has experienced, in addition to the inability of Falcao to adjust. If we had one striker who had the necessary movement and flexibility to play in a 4-3-3; even someone half decent on the level of Saha, I guarantee that we would have been battering teams to death this season, especially the ones who parked the bus. Everyone talking about our sterile sideways passing seem to be missing the point when they blame the tactics. It's the personnel in attack which LVG inherited from Moyes and Fergie, which has been the biggest stumbling block to us as a team, rather than LVG. It's unfortunate, and we could possibly blame LVG for adhering to the status quo, but when you think of the mitigating circumstances of his late start and almost constant injuries during the first half of the season, I suppose we could cut him a bit of slack.

So, taking everything into account, I think he's done a good job in getting us back into Europe and in a position where we can more readily attract the players of the necessary quality we need to challenge at home and Europe, while also further improving the performances of players who looked either hilariously out of their depth this time last year, or looked like misfits tactically.
 
Sammyjunn said:
So Giggs rather is his walking boy? Besides bringing across the tactics, it has no harm to drive your team forwards, to attack, to bring in urgency. I dont think it's a coincidence that we had that far more under Fergie of Mourinho who also implementated that in his style, even if it's a mental kick in the arse, it can help. Best example is Simeone, how often has he driven his team to go that extra mile in latter stages of the match, it also causes the crowd to stand behind the team more, create more heat. And it isnt like this should be a weekly thing, but Im really surprised about the passive attitude of LVG during this season, and this isnt one of the major problems I have with him, but once in a while, surely you can expect it? Maybe it's just me feeling sentiment about SAF's United.
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FYI, SAF sat a lot in his later years. I remember a thread awhile back, bitching about how SAFs' lost it/doesn't care anymore/gone senile because he sits there and doesn't run around shouting at his players as much as he used to.
 
People are just criticizing for the sake of criticizing. Even after someone had explained in depth of what is happening they still find flaw in everything about LVG. Our problem this year is our horrendously out of form strikers, but the only thing people willing to talk about is the sideway passes? Even Barcelona at the peak of their powers do a lot of it to retain possession. And that Barcelona had a lot of pace upfront, our team doesn't, that is why we needed more patience than usual to break down persistent teams. That is also why Young, an average but pacy player, seems to be our only threat at times.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Well I think that barely happens, almost all managers do that, if that happened frequently, it would surely be found out already.
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Hmm... Do most managers do this? And even if they do, does the fact most managers do it mean it works? You hear stories of managers getting an effect by screaming in the dressing room, not the technical area. I think drama on the touchline is all about the manager himself. They do it to release their own tensions, frustrations, anger, etc., not for the good of the team.

I remember watching the manager of Chile pacing up and down all match and I wondered to what level of detail he could see the match: So another question is, if a manager spends most of his time pacing, screaming or gesticulating, how well can he observe the match?
 
Sammyjunn said:
Well tbf I have seen Giggs doing that barely, and at the end of the day I see Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger, Carlo Ancelotti all doing it, I doubt sitting there all match and season helps either. How does he express himself when he's unhappy with our play? By sitting therr, and watching sad for 90 min? That doesnt help either.

Sometimes even LVG can get outmastered tactically, if you have to change the approach during the latter stages of the match, do the players have to just figure it out on their own? Even if he isnt that manager anymore (has done this in the past always, why would you suddenly stop), I really cant rember if LVG has even been on the sidelines once, its just weird for a manager to me.
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Van Gaal used to be very animated in his Ajax and Barca days, now of course he is a much older man in his 60's with a bad hip so that could explain his absence from the touchline.

Or with age he has realized much like Ferguson did that running up and down the touchline waving your arms around doesn't make a blind bit of difference to what is actually happening on the pitch 99% of the time, so why bother.
 
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Sunny Jim said:
Im refering to Fergies last team. Isnt this obvious?
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SAF could rely on his old guard who still had 1 good year left in them, LVG has to rely on dumb and dumber in defense and an unbalanced team.

SAF knew the EPL inside out. LVG is new to the EPL

In 2012-2013, all our rivals were either in a transition period or in a bad need for one. Chelsea were lead by Di Matteo, Shitty by Mancini (the year he lost the squad) and it was Rodgers first year at Liverpool. These days these clubs are being lead by Mourinho and Pellegrini and we are the ones in the transition period.
 
rotherham_red said:
I think a lot of the undecided crowd don't fully appreciate the scale of LVG's job here. Cast your mind back to where we were this time last year and how we were getting absolutely dicked on by teams that had no business of doing so. We were a shell of a team and indeed, a shell of a club. Van Gaal has come in and predominantly using players who had been available to Moyes, has stabilised us enough to get top 4. Not only that, he has been in the process of totally transforming the way we play the game, and improving us tactically. Rather than the relatively basic 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 we had under Fergie and Moyes, we're now playing a possession sytem, while also getting to grips with multiple systems which will no doubt be used when necessary at potentially any point during games, never mind the season. That is LVG's overall aim with his philosophy: for us to be able to be flexible and be able to play in a variety of fashions.
During this period of transition we have also beaten almost all our immediate rivals for a top 4 slot and have shown we can compete with the best team in the league in both matches we have come up against them. Which is in stark contrast to the horror shows we had home and away against City, Liverpool and away against Chelsea. Furthermore, LVG has got the team believing in themselves again. I still shudder when I think back to the days of Moyes setting us up to be difficult to fecking beat against Newcastle, FFS! We are now winning points when we have been poor. Our resolve and confidence is back. We genuinely can't put a price on that, and it is a quality which will be invaluable come next season.

Is his job done? Of course not, and because of the injuries and late start because of the World Cup, he entered the job in less than ideal circumstances to say the least. He could not make any real improvements to a defence which was shorn of three quarters of a Champions League winning defence, simply because he did not have the time to do so. He could only make one midfield signing, when we all knew it was only half or even a third of the job done. While he has also been dealt the potentially killer blow of having the 300 grand a week albatross named Wayne Rooney land on him, as well as the unforeseen dip that RVP has experienced, in addition to the inability of Falcao to adjust. If we had one striker who had the necessary movement and flexibility to play in a 4-3-3; even someone half decent on the level of Saha, I guarantee that we would have been battering teams to death this season, especially the ones who parked the bus. Everyone talking about our sterile sideways passing seem to be missing the point when they blame the tactics. It's the personnel in attack which LVG inherited from Moyes and Fergie, which has been the biggest stumbling block to us as a team, rather than LVG. It's unfortunate, and we could possibly blame LVG for adhering to the status quo, but when you think of the mitigating circumstances of his late start and almost constant injuries during the first half of the season, I suppose we could cut him a bit of slack.

So, taking everything into account, I think he's done a good job in getting us back into Europe and in a position where we can more readily attract the players of the necessary quality we need to challenge at home and Europe, while also further improving the performances of players who looked either hilariously out of their depth this time last year, or looked like misfits tactically.
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Well he signed Di Maria and Falcao, so can't blame anyone else for that. Or for not signing someone else instead of them. As for Rooney, Van Gaal has played him in midfield more often than he has up top. So he can't really be blamed for our lack of attacking edge over the course of the season. Which leaves us with Van Persie and his "unforeseen dip". Unforeseen by the one manager who had worked with him most closely in the months leading up to and during the summer transfer window.

I'm reasonably happy with where we are and agree that the scale of the task he faced (and Moyes, before him) was much bigger than a lot of people seem to think. We've been generally terrible to watch, though, and I can't shake the nagging suspicion that we stumbled into our best run of the season when injuries and suspensions forced Van Gaal's hand. Although, to be fair, the Carrick factor is huge. Almost won us the league single-handedly in Fergie's last season. If he'd played as many games for Van Gaal as he did in that campaign, who knows how many points we'd have right now?
 
Why would we care if he prefers to sit? It's not that his messages are not getting to the team
 
RedChip said:
Hmm... Do most managers do this? And even if they do, does the fact most managers do it mean it works? You hear stories of managers getting an effect by screaming in the dressing room, not the technical area. I think drama on the touchline is all about the manager himself. They do it to release their own tensions, frustrations, anger, etc., not for the good of the team.

I remember watching the manager of Chile pacing up and down all match and I wondered to what level of detail he could see the match: So another question is, if a manager spends most of his time pacing, screaming or gesticulating, how well can he observe the match?
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Well you can talk it in extremes, but the fact that he's barely done it, seems weird to me too. Other than that, if it had no effect for the team, I doubt it would be something that is going on for years and years.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Well you can talk it in extremes, but the fact that he's barely done it, seems weird to me too. Other than that, if it had no effect for the team, I doubt it would be something that is going on for years and years.
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It's going on because coaches are stressed and can't sit calmly for 30 minutes, most of the time they say nothing to the team.
 
Wonder what he's gonna talk about in his end of season speech after the last home game of the season
 
What are people's predictions in terms of Utd's achievements next season?

I'd personally be very happy with:
  • Top 2 Finish
  • 1 of either FA Cup or League Cup
  • Last 16 of the CL (maybe quarterfinals)
I think if LVG can master anything over that, I'd be extremely happy.
 
Disagree on the shouting / manager just being present on the sidelines, I think it has a huge effect.

Mourinho was saying how he comes down doesnt say a word just to make sure his players know he is keeping an eye, potentially affecting the opposite teams players. If he needs to speak he then can, in the moment he chooses rather than 2 minutes etc after he explains to Giggs and he then goes.

Its his style and thats it, but as I said it (for me) is a negative.
 
I'd just be happy with a continued improvement in the team, progressive improvement in our play would be bloody nice, even if we end up 3rd/4th again, if we can be in with a shout of the title for the majority of the season... (unlike this year scraping into 4th, miles off the title from day 1) then yea I'd take that, at this point I just want to see improvements, in our attacking play, game to game consistency etc. I suspect Arsenal and City will be stronger after the summer ends, the league is tough, thats just the sad reality.

the 3rd year is when I think we'll hit the heights under his reign,
I could be wrong.
 
Kill 'em all said:
Yes if we can get in the reinforcements we need.
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This will be the first summer since we signed RVP where our manager/CEO combo is unchanged. Really no excuse to not get most of our priority targets and to get them quickly. Last two seasons, you could forgive the sloppiness a bit because of the major changes but not anymore.

And to be honest, I'm confident we can get it done. Signing Depay already was a strong start. Reducing the travel for the summer tour, another good move. I don't think we'll have another stuttering start to the season.
 
IwatUwat said:
Disagree on the shouting / manager just being present on the sidelines, I think it has a huge effect.

Mourinho was saying how he comes down doesnt say a word just to make sure his players know he is keeping an eye, potentially affecting the opposite teams players. If he needs to speak he then can, in the moment he chooses rather than 2 minutes etc after he explains to Giggs and he then goes.

Its his style and thats it, but as I said it (for me) is a negative.
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If Mourinho said that its a bit ridiculous though isn't it?

If he doesn't stand on the touchline do the Chelsea players think he's sitting on the bench playing candy crush on his phone or something. Of course he's keeping an eye on them, he's a bloody football manager that's his job.

The other part about affecting opposition players may have something in it, as Ferguson said he often went down to the touchline for the same reason.
 
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Title challenge to the death. 2nd is minimum.

But that's assuming we do our job in the transfer market first
 
If he spends another £100million plus then he absolutely has to win the Premier league title next season, we simply have to start winning trophies again, but the way we have been embarrassed in both cup competitions this season does not give me a lot of hope.

Since he has had a whole season to assess the squad, I'm sure we can expect him to fill the gaps to close the gap and beat away Chelsea, City and Arsenal.
 
BennyBlanco said:
I'd just be happy with a continued improvement in the team, progressive improvement in our play would be bloody nice, even if we end up 3rd/4th again, if we can be in with a shout of the title for the majority of the season... (unlike this year scraping into 4th, miles off the title from day 1) then yea I'd take that, at this point I just want to see improvements, in our attacking play, game to game consistency etc. I suspect Arsenal and City will be stronger after the summer ends, the league is tough, thats just the sad reality.

the 3rd year is when I think we'll hit the heights under his reign,
I could be wrong.
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Are you having a laugh mate? These types of standards were completely unacceptable and unthinkable under Fergie.
 
With the spending over the last 18 months and whatever is going to be spent this summer, the league title is a must next year. Don't really mind if we sell some of the expensive signings we have made already, but LvG should get the players he feels will fit his system. Don't want any more excuses next year when our spending most probably will reach around 250+ millions.
 
SonnyTheHaloPro said:
Are you having a laugh mate? These types of standards were completely unacceptable and unthinkable under Fergie.
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Fergie isnt here anymore, *mate.*
I like to live in reality where teams like Arsenal havent won the league in 10+ years, Chelsea before this season 1x in 7 years etc despite their spend.
Unless you have a plan to get Sir Alex back in charge, and have a contingency plan for reanimating his corpse after that then yea..
 
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