Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I always think too much gets mixed into these discussions. Take the OP as an example, it quotes some horrible tweets by Rowling and highlights an important issue, but is then put into a thread with a title "Transgender rights discussion".
The OP wasn't even about rights, it didn't mention rights at all. But framing it about rights pushes the conversation in a particular way - I mean, who can be against equal rights?
The conversation isn't really about rights, because I'm not sure anyone has any rights that a transgender person doesn't have (happy to be corrected here). The conversation is really about privilege, and should society afford certain privileges to particilar people so that they feel equal to others - and is privilege required in certain instances to achieve equality.
Whatever your views are, it is a fascinating discussion in that context, even if that means you have to ignore those being deliberately provocative.
The OP wasn't even about rights, it didn't mention rights at all. But framing it about rights pushes the conversation in a particular way - I mean, who can be against equal rights?
The conversation isn't really about rights, because I'm not sure anyone has any rights that a transgender person doesn't have (happy to be corrected here). The conversation is really about privilege, and should society afford certain privileges to particilar people so that they feel equal to others - and is privilege required in certain instances to achieve equality.
Whatever your views are, it is a fascinating discussion in that context, even if that means you have to ignore those being deliberately provocative.
Would you mind sharing an example of something you think you should be allowed to say but are no longer allowed?
What exactly are you referring to here, concerning this thread? Please be specific.
If we stick solely to the transgender topic, good luck saying "You are born either male or female and no plastic surgery will change that" publicly.
The thread title was changed recently as it was originally specific to Rowling's comments ('JK Rowling TERF and transphobic' or something to that effect was the original title).
Ah well that makes sense. Shows how infrequently I'm in and out these days.
You know it’s not illegal to say that? You will be challenged though, because people refer not to “biological sex” but “gender” which itself is a social construct indicating the role we play in society.
I am aware it is not illegal to say and it will not get anyone saying that jailed but I think you know what I meant. You can say it but at the same time you really cannot.
But you did? And we’re discussing it?
Begone vile Satan! My righteousness casts you and your arguments based on facts from this Earth!
You think that's bad, try saying that you're English in public.
It's a completely different environment compared to (social) media or other much more public channels. There are plenty of cases like this https://wgme.com/news/local/usm-stu...rofessor-says-only-two-biological-sexes-exist which I just find completely absurd.
This below sums it up nicely:
You are born male or female but plastic surgery has changed it for two people I know. You wouldnt be able to tell if you met them. Both seriously great young men. If you tried to argue with them that they were still female you would cause them some distress because they have both been down a long torturous path of personal confusion, depression, guilt and a host of other emotions to get to who they are now. Add in the years of hormone treatment and the major surgeries. Both truely believed they should have been male and now after many years are able to be who they feel they should be. I dont understand why anyone would want to say that to them or push that angle on them. Its wrong, saying it publicly is also wrong.
They are now both Men.
The thing is though, he’s a professor and the university will have a position on these things. Gender is an identity and most universities have strict guidelines around equity and equality.
It’s 2023, the distinction between biological sex and social gender has long been established. For a person of authority and trust in a University to be contrarian and denies a minority of his students their identity - it’s understanding that his students were upset and they protested his words, as is their right to.
Out of interest, why do you feel your right to deny the existence of social genders over biological sex is more important than the rights of someone who feels the brain that was coupled with their body before birth wasn’t the correct match and instead they wish to live as their non cis-gender?
In that particular case it was "two biological sexes exist" which caused a controversy.
People can live their lives however they want as long as it makes them happy, who am I to judge, it doesn't bother me at all. What does bother me is that as I said, freedom to express your opinion (unless it obviously fully complies with the "norm") is severely limited nowadays. Anything you say can get you fired from the job or become a target of cancel culture. Someone saying "there are only 2 genders", "transgender men should not be allowed to compete in women sport and vice-versa", or simply thinking that some of those infinite amount of genders are ridiculous (mirrorgender, duragender, condigender etc) should not cause a controversy because it's an opinion after all, just as "right" as someone who thinks otherwise. Anyway, don't want to go offtopic any further.
Yes, if you say that you're in danger of everyone fawning over you, and someone making an eight part podcast series about how cool you are and how the trans activists are witch hunting you, all the while deliberately not covering all your vile shit.
Wouldn't want that.
People get sex and gender mixed up. There are more than 2 genders. the definition of gender in the dictionary explains it well.
Remind who's in power around the world again? Someone being radically left on Twitter is clearly not as dangerous as the borderline fascists politicians in power in places like the US and UK.
Bit of an exaggeration, no? How often do you feel limited in your ability to express your opinion. I can't even remember the last time it happened to me. But most of the stuff I talk about is football, work and alcohol anyway so it's hardly inflammatory.
You remind me vaguely of my mum who was distraught she couldn't use a term in Danish anymore because "it felt like her childhood and youth was taken from her as that's how they used to speak". If that's what you remember from your youth maybe you should've spend your time on more exciting stuff, mum.
Good grief...
For someone who supposedly wants to champion the rights of "actual" trans people, you sure do use a lot of ultra-conservative dog whistles and bigoted rhetoric to state that. It's absolutely not the kind of language that I would associate with an LGBTQ ally, ever. It seems more like what you'd find in the most hysterical of Daily Mail comments sections.
I'd definitely like to see some examples of these supposed faux-LGBTQ cosplayers and their imaginary sexualities and genders though. Have you got any?
I always knew that my rhombus shaped knob would find a target market eventually.
It’s amazing how someone can claim that their freedom of speech is limited just to go on and say exactly the things that they are not allowed to say.
It’s been pointed out countless times, but needs pointing out again. Someone like this doesn’t want freedom of speech. They want freedom from criticism, as they can’t cope with their opinions being challenged.
It’s been pointed out countless times, but needs pointing out again. Someone like this doesn’t want freedom of speech. They want freedom from criticism, as they can’t cope with their opinions being challenged.
These days, if you say "You are born either male or female and no plastic surgery will change that", you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.
Well, no, but there's a decent chance you'll have some rabid activist contact your employer to say what a transphobic, extremist bigot you are. That's been the case recently in my country at least, according to some recent media reports.
I am fully against the idea the left is more dangerous. Far right is a genuine danger to society than far left but let’s not act like left/liberal policies aren’t to blame for a lot of things in the world.
Not being able to discuss issues fairly is one of those things. I know it’s difficult since there are a lot of bad faith dimwits out there who can’t think beyond 3 words that are usually “trigger” “virtue signal” “snowflake”, but I still feel there is more room to discuss and criticize/reevaluate our own stances on things like transgender rights
In what situation would you feel the need to say that to a trans person?
I wouldn't, ever.
There's someone a few posts up (post #2365) who feels somewhat oppressed that they can't say it without being challenged though. I was just making fun of how daft that is.
Wow that is unreal - how could you call yourself a Christian and yet have no compassion whatsoever.
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear him say the same thing about gay people.
I don't know why people keep saying there are only two biological sexes.
I assume that they mean there are only people with XX or XY chromosomes or people who are born with either male sexual parts or female sexual parts.
However, there are people born with XXY, XYY and other chromosome combinations and also can be born with a mixture or absence of sexual organs.
If it's their role in reproduction, the are people who have the more common set of sexual organs, who are totally barren.
So what are the two biological sexes? Surely it's more of a spectrum, and that's not even talking about gender.
I assume that they mean there are only people with XX or XY chromosomes or people who are born with either male sexual parts or female sexual parts.
However, there are people born with XXY, XYY and other chromosome combinations and also can be born with a mixture or absence of sexual organs.
If it's their role in reproduction, the are people who have the more common set of sexual organs, who are totally barren.
So what are the two biological sexes? Surely it's more of a spectrum, and that's not even talking about gender.
Interesting theory that some of the people saying they were transgender in the 2021 census misunderstood the question due to not speaking English as a first language, given the massive concentrations of trans folk in areas like Newham and Brent, with large immigrant communities.
Watchdog to examine ‘implausible’ UK census trans figures
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-figures-data-census-2021-uk-investigation-h668jcqrs
Watchdog to examine ‘implausible’ UK census trans figures
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-figures-data-census-2021-uk-investigation-h668jcqrs
That’s so crazy.Bloody immigrants, coming over here, being trans!!!
See, that's the great thing about being a Christian, being part of the club absolves you from questionable concepts like compassion. It's a nice, warm and fuzzy cloak to wear
Understood, sorry I missed what you wer doing. Cheers
In mammalian physiology, there are only two sexes (I'd argue that there are only two genders as well, but that's a different discussion).
You're either male or female. Anything that doesn't fit that binary is due to a mutation, genetic anomaly, or some other in utero developmental issue. It's not, and shouldn't be considered as a 3rd sex, or that sex is on a spectrum.
The title was changed to this to be as uncontroversial as possible, so as not to discourage genuine discussion and because it is a general trans related thread now. Surely that is rights related if nothing else? Do you have a better idea?
It's called Klinefelter syndrome and a quick Google says that approx 1 in 500 boys are born XXY
Ok?
Klinefelter is a genetic issue, which is something I covered in my initial post.
That makes 16 million boys genetic anomalies. And that's not including all the other variations of extra X's, apparently it can go up to XXXXY. And that's also not including those with extra Y's.
If you add up all of those different variations, that's a sizable proportion of people who don't have the normal amount of chromosomes, so are neither male or female
Why do you select only mammals? Perhaps because 5% of animals are not male or female as they are hermaphrodites?
In any case trans is not a denial of biological sex but a recognition that some peoples' sex and gender are not aligned. The intersex cases that you mention are not the same as trans although that is a fair few people who aren't strictly male or female.