US Politics

oneniltothearsenal said:
Hong Kong is such an individually unique situation and history I don't think you can really compare it to anything else. The other issues when looking at the US inequality is not just the raw numbers but the trend that is still ongoing.
Click to expand...
This seems to have got completely sidetracked, I do NOT think the current wealth inequality in the US is good at all, especially compared to other developed countries.

However, my original point was:
Cal? said:
:lol: I have often wondered what he does for a living to feel such extreme bitterness. :confused:
Click to expand...
I think we can all agree western Europe has a much better situation regarding wealth inequality, in particular Scandinavia.

However, Sweden has about 3% of the population of USA, yet has more than 5% the number of billionaires of the US.

People still get rich under supposedly much fairer systems, the fact some people get ultra rich is not the underlying cause of wealth inequality.
 
Cal? said:
However, my original point was:

I think we can all agree western Europe has a much better situation regarding wealth inequality, in particular Scandinavia.

However, Sweden has about 3% of the population of USA, yet has more than 5% the number of billionaires of the US.

People still get rich under supposedly much fairer systems, the fact some people get ultra rich is not the underlying cause of wealth inequality.
Click to expand...

Welll em the billionaire per capita point is moot, means feck all. It’s such a rare thing WorldWide, count the multi millionaires instead. Or... Just count the inequality and the US is quite simply a shit spot.
 
Cal? said:
This seems to have got completely sidetracked, I do NOT think the current wealth inequality in the US is good at all, especially compared to other developed countries.

However, my original point was:

I think we can all agree western Europe has a much better situation regarding wealth inequality, in particular Scandinavia.

However, Sweden has about 3% of the population of USA, yet has more than 5% the number of billionaires of the US.

People still get rich under supposedly much fairer systems, the fact some people get ultra rich is not the underlying cause of wealth inequality.
Click to expand...

What are the polices you believe would best redress income inequality in both the US and Hong Kong?
 
Eboue said:


What a fecking disgrace. feck schumer and feck the Democrats.
Click to expand...

Looked at the Circuit court map a week ago. 70%+ jidgemjudg were conservative. The Dems have no concept of the long term. Inept party.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
What are the polices you believe would best redress income inequality in both the US and Hong Kong?
Click to expand...
It'd be very different in the US and HK. Short version:

For the US, move towards a more European model - higher taxes, lower military spending, single payer healthcare, affordable college.

For Hong Kong, it's a vastly different issue, the income inequality is a direct result of the amazingly (obscenely) high property prices. Vastly increase the supply of subsidized housing, capital gains tax.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Welll em the billionaire per capita point is moot, means feck all. It’s such a rare thing WorldWide, count the multi millionaires instead. Or... Just count the inequality and the US is quite simply a shit spot.
Click to expand...
I did not say the US is not in a shit spot, just that his bitterness towards billionaires is astounding.
 
Cal? said:
I did not say the US is not in a shit spot, just that his bitterness towards billionaires is astounding.
Click to expand...

The fact the super rich own congress and judges pretty much is why there is so much income inequality.

We are not on a level playing field.

Hopefully we can correct this via the ballot box.

But in the end it Will be corrected one way or another.
 
Synco said:
What's the reason for this?
Click to expand...

The glib answer is "Dems = left wing of capital".
I think another explanation is that they're delusional - they still think the GOP can be comprpomised with, and so these small adjustments will allow reciprocal stuff when Dems have power again.
Finally, one of the guys whose tweets I posted was a staffer for Harry Reid, the previous Democratic senate leader. Maybe Schumer simply doesn't have the minimal political sense, and it's an individual problem, but I doubt that.


...
 
berbatrick said:
The glib answer is "Dems = left wing of capital".
I think another explanation is that they're delusional - they still think the GOP can be comprpomised with, and so these small adjustments will allow reciprocal stuff when Dems have power again.
Finally, one of the guys whose tweets I posted was a staffer for Harry Reid, the previous Democratic senate leader. Maybe Schumer simply doesn't have the minimal political sense, and it's an individual problem, but I doubt that.


...
Click to expand...

It might be cause of Kavanaugh. While Dems thought that trying to block him will help them, instead it galvanised the Republican base and he ended in SC anyway. A partisan war always ends with a Republican victory, so Dems should stay away from it and instead run on concrete things like medicare for all.
 
Revan said:
It might be cause of Kavanaugh. While Dems thought that trying to block him will help them, instead it galvanised the Republican base and he ended in SC anyway. A partisan war always ends with a Republican victory, so Dems should stay away from it and instead run on concrete things like medicare for all.
Click to expand...

Trump has given an opening by condemning Medicare for All/Single payer. He is actively suing to remove pre-existing protection from the ACA.
 
Red Dreams said:
Trump has given an opening by condemning Medicare for All/Single payer. He is actively suing to remove pre-existing protection from the ACA.
Click to expand...
Indeed. They should run (mainly) on this. Running as obstructionists against McTurtle and Trump is a losing war, you just cannot beat Republicans on their own game.
 
Eboue said:


why does bitter eboue hate the rich
Click to expand...


The answer is in your question to be fair. Many normal income people would not pay taxes if they could. A great deal many. The problem is primarily with governments for allowing tax-havens, loopholes and legal tax-avoidance schemes.

You can’t give people Get Out of Jail Free cards and expect them not to use them on moral grounds. That’s not how it works, or ever worked.
 
MadMike said:
The answer is in your question to be fair. Many normal income people would not pay taxes if they could. A great deal many. The problem is primarily with governments for allowing tax-havens, loopholes and legal tax-avoidance schemes.

You can’t give people Get Out of Jail Free cards and expect them not to use them on moral grounds. That’s not how it works, or ever worked.
Click to expand...
Those people created their own get out of jail free cards. That's the problem.
 
afrocentricity said:
Those people created their own get out of jail free cards. That's the problem.
Click to expand...

Not really though. These exist because governments allow them to exist, because there's no solid enough legislation to prevent them. And more importantly, no willingness from governments to put such laws in place.

But generally, digging a bit deeper, this type of behaviour (collusion of people influence/money/power with governments, so that they are above the law) has been exhibited to various extends in every single form of governance humans have attempted since written history began. It was a hot topic from the political philosophers of ancient Greece or Rome till now. It has been extremely evident in socialism, fascism, oligarchy and democratic capitalism. Monarchy and aristocracies basically enshrined it.

So to blame rich people or capital for it is either lazy or dishonest. Or plain dumb. I don't think it will ever be fully resolved, a bit like you can never bring drug addiction down to 0, it's an unrealistic target. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't strive to do better. In a democratic system the pressure should be from the people towards the elected officials to do more.
 
MadMike said:
Not really though. These exist because governments allow them to exist, because there's no solid enough legislation to prevent them. And more importantly, no willingness from governments to put such laws in place.

But generally, digging a bit deeper, this type of behaviour (collusion of people influence/money/power with governments, so that they are above the law) has been exhibited to various extends in every single form of governance humans have attempted since written history began. It was a hot topic from the political philosophers of ancient Greece or Rome till now. It has been extremely evident in socialism, fascism, oligarchy and democratic capitalism. Monarchy and aristocracies basically enshrined it.

So to blame rich people or capital for it is either lazy or dishonest. Or plain dumb. I don't think it will ever be fully resolved, a bit like you can never bring drug addiction down to 0, it's an unrealistic target. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't strive to do better. In a democratic system the pressure should be from the people towards the elected officials to do more.
Click to expand...
Why not blame both? :confused:

You say it's dumb to blame the rich people that shape the system to their benefit. Dunno why you're calling people dumb tbh. The government allow it to happen because the rich pay them and influence them. I'd say it's 'dumb" to ignore that fact....
 
afrocentricity said:
Why not blame both? :confused:

You say it's dumb to blame the rich people that shape the system to their benefit. Dunno why you're calling people dumb tbh. The government allow it to happen because the rich pay them and influence them. I'd say it's 'dumb" to ignore that fact....
Click to expand...

On the bolded part; well I didn't, that's false logic. You can call an idea dumb without calling the people dumb and resorting to ad hominem attacks. Even the smartest people can occasionally have dumb ideas or beliefs. It's quite a different thing.

Now more to the actual point, "why not blame rich people as well". Well, two reasons. One reason is that its broad definition shifts the focus into the wrong thing, which usually leads to the discussion being hijacked by ideologues. A common example goes like this: Rich people don't pay the full tax, the problem is that they are rich. What is it to be rich? to have loads of money. So money and the accumulation of it is the problem. How about socialism then? Obviously a false narrative since similar problems of accountability and power-checking manifested under socialism, in even uglier forms.

The second, is that it matters and achieves absolutely nawt. Jared Kushner, Jeff Bezos and whichever other obscenely rich person is avoiding tax, is not accountable to me and you and doesn't care. Civilians are accountable to the government and the government is accountable to us. So the pressure should be targeted towards the government if we're ever going to actually achieve something more effective in this current political system.

One final thought, I don't really have a problem with targeting the individuals involved in tax avoidance and putting pressure on them (rather than a blanket "rich people" blaming). I don't really care about protecting them, since they clearly don't care about us either. I just think that as an approach it'll have the least impact for the reasons mentioned above and actually dilutes the focus from what it should be. For example, since tax avoidance conjures strong emotions it's used for political point-scoring near or around election time, while distracting away from the fact that no party is showing any real willingness to change the status quo. I think this thread is evidence to this as well.
 
Last edited:
TL: DR? Sorry I'm not invested enough to read thru something that looks like an article. I just disagree that rich people that cheat the system are blameless. You either disagree or you don't? Either way I'm not looking for a discussion about it... Just being honest.
 
MadMike said:
Not really though. These exist because governments allow them to exist, because there's no solid enough legislation to prevent them. And more importantly, no willingness from governments to put such laws in place.

But generally, digging a bit deeper, this type of behaviour (collusion of people influence/money/power with governments, so that they are above the law) has been exhibited to various extends in every single form of governance humans have attempted since written history began. It was a hot topic from the political philosophers of ancient Greece or Rome till now. It has been extremely evident in socialism, fascism, oligarchy and democratic capitalism. Monarchy and aristocracies basically enshrined it.

So to blame rich people or capital for it is either lazy or dishonest. Or plain dumb. I don't think it will ever be fully resolved, a bit like you can never bring drug addiction down to 0, it's an unrealistic target. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't strive to do better. In a democratic system the pressure should be from the people towards the elected officials to do more.
Click to expand...

The rich control governments. They bribe and lobby officials. They give six figure cushy jobs to politicians who do what they want. They literally write legislation. They create laws that add hurdles for regular people to vote and to influence anything.

So to not blame rich people or capital is putting your head in the sand. Or dumb.
 
Social security checks to get a decent 2.8% hike in 2019. That’ll be shouted from the rooftops by Republicans.

Not as much mentioned is that the social security tax for workers & employers is going up, by raising the income cap by 3.5%, to $132,900.
 
Eboue said:
The rich control governments. They bribe and lobby officials. They give six figure cushy jobs to politicians who do what they want. They literally write legislation. They create laws that add hurdles for regular people to vote and to influence anything.

So to not blame rich people or capital is putting your head in the sand. Or dumb.
Click to expand...

The obvious problem with your dystopian view of the world, is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Under pressure or will from voters, governments have many times in the past passed legislation in favour of the people and against big business or rich businessmen. Unless you mean to tell me modern taxation systems, worker's rights, the welfare state etc... were all things from the dawn of time and not things that have been won over the years in-spite of political lobbying from moneyed interest groups.

So yeah, if you believe that every politician is bought, every system is rigged, money's power is absolute in a democracy and there's no discourse from this... then step out of the conspiracy theory closet you've been living in and maybe do your own lobbying in the right direction. Or you know, stay bitter and blame it all on capitalism it's all the same to me.
 
MadMike said:
The obvious problem with your dystopian view of the world, is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Under pressure or will from voters, governments have many times in the past passed legislation in favour of the people and against big business or rich businessmen. Unless you mean to tell me modern taxation systems, worker's rights, the welfare state etc... were all things from the dawn of time and not things that have been won over the years in-spite of political lobbying from moneyed interest groups.

So yeah, if you believe that every politician is bought, every system is rigged, money's power is absolute in a democracy and there's no discourse from this... then step out of the conspiracy theory closet you've been living in and maybe do your own lobbying in the right direction. Or you know, stay bitter and blame it all on capitalism it's all the same to me.
Click to expand...

They were won through demands of workers. They were won through the deaths of protesters. They weren't won through "well lets not blame rich people actually" folks like you. The fact that you think money and power controlling almost every aspect of our lives is a conspiracy theory is an indictment of your capability for critical thinking. This country is a hellish place for millions of people and you choose to stick your head in the sand.
 
Eboue said:
They were won through demands of workers. They were won through the deaths of protesters. They weren't won through "well lets not blame rich people actually" folks like you. The fact that you think money and power controlling almost every aspect of our lives is a conspiracy theory is an indictment of your capability for critical thinking. This country is a hellish place for millions of people and you choose to stick your head in the sand.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree with your views but what is undeniable is the corrosion of worker's right that has seen this inequality rise more. Even at this point, what do we do now? make sure workers rights get denied further by ruling on cases on the basis of religious rights and other bullshit so that the collective bargaining is not unlawful. I'm not the brightest bulb to solve all the world issues but a system where we allow this kind of manipulation is not right.
 
I honestly do not know how anyone could deny the issue with money in politics given the current system in the USA. It's undeniable, as is how the rich/poor divide is leading us to another civil war, possibly on a global scale too.

It's also insane to think that people like Trump and Kushner who avoid taxes on a ridiculously large scale, as well as companies like Google and Starbucks who avoid overseas taxes like they have to the tune of hundreds of millions just in the UK alone, are not a cause of the problem too. Especially when these humongous global companies often don't pay their staff properly either.

Yeah, nothing to see here, all is grand, Gromit. Fml.
 
Down here visiting family outside of Fort Worth and took my doggos to a local vet for a quick checkup. As I departed the parking lot I noticed their e-billboard below the office sign. One e-message displayed read "Save America - Vote Republican."

This is what you're up against in rural pockets across the US. Not that Democrats are better but certainly lesser of the two evils that can obtain political power.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.