Westminster Politics

Sweet Square said:
Maybe just maybe Blairs lying while in office has contributed to the political environment we have today.
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Was thinking the same. He says a lot of reasonable stuff and is obviously a smart guy but he has no self awareness.
 
One of the problems with politics and political discourse today is that people only really need to see a picture of the politician and not read or hear what it is they're seeing to decide whether they agree with it or not.

Politician I like, then I'll agree with what they say. I won't listen to what it is they say or really care but I like them so I'll agree with it. Politician I don't like then even if I agree with what they say I'll pretend I don't and attack them for another reason.

What relevance do the views of a former Prime Minister have when Aaron Bastini is calling people "LOL melts", or Owen Jones is complaining about media conspiracy and everyone being out to get Corbyn and somehow pretending there's a difference between that and the Trump nutters.
 
Oscie said:
One of the problems with politics and political discourse today is that people only really need to see a picture of the politician and not read or hear what it is they're seeing to decide whether they agree with it or not.

Politician I like, then I'll agree with what they say. I won't listen to what it is they say or really care but I like them so I'll agree with it. Politician I don't like then even if I agree with what they say I'll pretend I don't and attack them for another reason.

What relevance do the views of a former Prime Minister have when Aaron Bastini is calling people "LOL melts", or Owen Jones is complaining about media conspiracy and everyone being out to get Corbyn and somehow pretending there's a difference between that and the Trump nutters.
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I despise Owen Jones and agree with most of what you said. Still, I don't think it's particularly nuts to think there is a huge negative media bias against centre-left and left-wing viewpoints.
 
altodevil86 said:
I despise Owen Jones and agree with most of what you said. Still, I don't think it's particularly nuts to think there is a huge negative media bias against centre-left and left-wing viewpoints.
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Print media do. At least the best selling newspapers. Talk radio does too but the influence of that is minimal. The best antidote to bullshit used to be common sense. Now that's dissipated and everyone's just as bonkers as anyone else. There used to be a block of moderates who weren't particularly idealogical but were happy to call right wing and left wing bullshit out.

Now everyone just wears 'Left/Right wing bullshit and proud' t-shirts.

Sad #MAGA (etc)
 
Oscie said:
One of the problems with politics and political discourse today is that people only really need to see a picture of the politician and not read or hear what it is they're seeing to decide whether they agree with it or not.

Politician I like, then I'll agree with what they say. I won't listen to what it is they say or really care but I like them so I'll agree with it. Politician I don't like then even if I agree with what they say I'll pretend I don't and attack them for another reason.

What relevance do the views of a former Prime Minister have when Aaron Bastini is calling people "LOL melts", or Owen Jones is complaining about media conspiracy and everyone being out to get Corbyn and somehow pretending there's a difference between that and the Trump nutters.
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Or maybe people are just rightfully pointing out that Blair's a self-righteous hypocrite making a fortune off the back of his political career while ignoring the extent to which he and other similar politicians have contributed to the conditions we now live in today. Why does his voice automatically get respected because he's a former PM? Even as someone who can recognise his government did plenty which can be lauded and which was far better than a Tory government, he's hilariously out-of-touch on just about everything now.
 
Grinner said:
That block of common-sense moderates existed because they read newspapers and watched TV news that still had integrity and high journalistic standards. Those have fallen by the wayside now and instead we get journalism that appeals to people's biases and seeks to rile them up instead of presenting facts and hoping for independent thought.
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When has this ever been the case ? It's blind nostalgia for a pretty awful past.
 
Grinner said:
Back in the Thatcher years the conservatives hated the BBC because it was seen as a leftie organization when it was mostly just being fair. That's swung around now.
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A lot of Tories still hate the BBC. Plenty of right-wingers view it as a hyper-liberal organisation filled with middle-class cultural marxists who are too pro-EU etc.
 
Sweet Square said:
When has this ever been the case ? It's blind nostalgia for a pretty awful past.
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Yeah, Blair would typically be seen as a 'moderate' but was the master of spin doctors etc and courted Murdoch constantly.
 
Grinner said:
Back in the Thatcher years the conservatives hated the BBC because it was seen as a leftie organization when it was mostly just being fair. That's swung around now.
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But that was never really the case anyway

We were fed lies about the violence at Orgreave. Now we need the truth
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/22/orgreave-truth-police-miners-strike

In 2012, after reporting by the Guardian and a BBC documentary that showed that dozens of police officers’ statements had identical opening paragraphs setting out the scene of a riot, South Yorkshire police referred themselves to the Independent Police Complaints Commission for possible misconduct.

The IPCC took two and a half years to read the available paperwork – which did not include any documents relating to the planning of the operation, as South Yorkshire police said they had not found any. Owing to the passage of time, the IPCC decided it would not mount a formal investigation. But in its report, finally published last month, the IPCC found “support for the allegation” that three senior police officers in command at Orgreave had “made up an untrue account exaggerating the degree of violence (in particular missile throwing)” from miners to justify their use of force and the charges of riot. The report said one of these most senior officers had his statement typed and witnessed by another officer who led a team of detectives which, the IPCC said, dictated those identical opening paragraphs of junior officers’ statements.The report says the BBC had indeed reversed footage in its news broadcast that night, an accusation the BBC has never officially accepted.
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The BBC is neither independent or impartial: interview with Tom Mills
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourbe...pendent-or-impartial-interview-with-tom-mills

IS: The arrival of John Birt as Deputy Director-General in 1987 seems to have heralded a significant change at the BBC?

TM: Yes, that was the year when the then Director General Alasdair Milne, father of Guardian journalist and Corbyn advisor Seumas Milne, was forced to resign by the Thatcher appointed chair Marmaduke Hussey. Milne wasn’t a leftist by any means, but he had represented the more independent spirit of BBC programme making at that time. He was replaced by a BBC accountant called Michael Checkland and John Birt was meanwhile brought in from an ITV company to head the BBC’s journalism, later succeeding Checkland as Director General.

Birt wasn’t really understood by his critics at the time, who seem to have been rather puzzled by his authoritarianism and his belligerent managerialism. They seem to have regarded him as a Stalinist, or something like that. But in fact he was an out-and-out neoliberal who wanted not only to introduce stronger editorial controls over BBC journalism, but also to radically shift its institutional structure and culture away from its ‘statist’ character and in a more neoliberal, business-friendly direction. This was resented by BBC staff and the Corporation went through a quite unhappy period, with a brief respite under Greg Dyke. As I describe in some detail in the book, Birt’s ‘reforms’ were part of a broader process of neoliberal restructuring, and in some ways Dyke was also part of that, especially in terms of the extent to which business reporting was pushed up the agenda during his time as director general.
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And that's just the BBC. The famous itv shite Cook report & The Daily Mirror hatch job on the miners strike was another case of the media misdirecting the public.

Grinner said:
How would you know?
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Because we only have to look back at the past to see the countless examples of how the media(And not in the Alex ''Man Ultra Pills'' Jones way)has both constantly failed and actively misinformed the general public. If anyone does this then it would be clear that the talking points we see today - fake news etc aren't some break from the norm but a simply continuation of what has gone on before.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah, Blair would typically be seen as a 'moderate' but was the master of spin doctors etc and courted Murdoch constantly.
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And people gave him credit for it as well. Now we can a debate wither it was the only to get into government considering social media wasn't really around at all but it's a fact that New Labour and the press were completely connected together which of course is awful for democracy(Although again nothing new)
 
Labour under pressure over Peter Willsman's antisemitism remarks
NEC member said Jewish claims of antisemitism were based on ‘duff information’

The Labour party is under growing pressure to reconsider its decision not to formally discipline one of Jeremy Corbyn’s allies after he accused Jewish “Trump fanatics” of making up allegations of antisemitism in the party.

Jewish community leaders reacted furiously to remarks made by Peter Willsman at a meeting of Labour’s national executive committee (NEC) earlier this month. The meeting resulted in the party refusing to fully adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism.

Willsman, an activist on the “JC9” Momentum-backed slate for re-election to the party’s ruling body, was taped saying he would “not be lectured” over antisemitism and accused rabbis of“making up duff information without any evidence at all”.

Momentum activists also suggested Willsman should be removed from their leftwing slate, which wouldeffectively destroy his chances of being voted back on to the NEC.

Marie van der Zyl, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said Willsman should be expelled from the Labour party and suggested that Corbyn, who was present for at least some of the meeting, should have intervened.

“Now Peter Willsman’s disgusting rant against the Jewish community and rabbis has been made public … he should be summarily expelled. Was Jennie Formby [the Labour party general secretary] there to hear what was said? If yes, why did she let Willsman off so lightly?

“Was Jeremy Corbyn there to hear Willsman? If so, what form did his professed ‘militant opposition’ to antisemitism take when he heard it? Why has it been so easy to clear Willsman after his slurs against the Jewish community, but anti-racist MPs Margaret Hodge and Ian Austin are still being put through the ringer?”

Two formal complaints were made about Willsman after the meeting but Formby said there would be no inquiry as he had apologised.

Hodge and Austin remain under investigation by Labour after they raised doubts about the party’s ability to tackle antisemitism.

In the recording of the NEC meeting, released on Monday by the Jewish Chronicle, Willsman is heard to say: “I think we should ask the … rabbis: where is your evidence of severe and widespread antisemitism in this party?” In apparent response to some other people raising their hands, he replied: “I’m amazed. I’ve certainly never seen any.”

Other pro-Corbyn figures have called for Willsman to resign. The singer Billy Bragg said: “You can’t deal with a problem if you don’t believe it exists. Pete Willsman has sat through a Labour disputes meeting at which the majority of cases pertained to antisemitism. How can he claim to have never seen evidence of it? He should stand down now.”

The former Corbyn aide Matt Zarb-Cousin tweeted: “Pete Willsman should withdraw from the left slate, which he shouldn’t have been anywhere near in the first place to be honest. You’ve had your time Pete, time to go. Let someone else have a chance, preferably someone who doesn’t downplay racism …”

Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, also criticised Willsman. He tweeted: “For the avoidance of doubt: Peter Willsman is and always has been a loudmouthed bully. He disgusts me.”

The Labour MP Luciana Berger, the parliamentary chair of the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), responded to the recording by calling for the party to suspend Willsman and conduct a formal investigation.

“Anyone listening to this recording will be appalled to hear the venom and fury directed by Mr Willsman at the British Jewish community,” she told the Jewish Chronicle. “That he accuses the Jewish community of falsifying social media and being ‘Trump fanatics’ in order to deny the serious concerns of 68 rabbis beggars belief.”

A Labour party spokesman said: “Labour takes all complaints extremely seriously. These are fully investigated in line with party rules and procedures.”

Last week, three leading Jewish newspapers in the UK published the same front-page editorial warning that a government led by Corbyn would pose “an existential threat to Jewish life” in Britain.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-pressure-peter-willsman-antisemitism-remarks
 
The last thing the party needs is to be making comments like these. Can't people just shut their gob?
 
It's almost as if having a leader who only reluctantly stood because it was his turn to represent the section of the parliamentary party that never thought it could win, at a time when the government is in course to do lasting damage to the country, possibly wasn't a good idea, isn't it?
 
Dobba said:
Lembit Opik, a leader Oscie can get behind.
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He's ineffectual, a bit daft, has no hope of ever getting in and from the looks of it seems to have a bit of a strange cult-following on social media. For that reason I'd say he's more your bag.


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Johnson's 'letterbox' remark when it comes to observing how someone wearing a burqa looks is not even disguised racism. The fruits of Bannon's labour apparently paying off rather quicker than expected.
 
Amazing what a term in a Tory coalition does to a party. At least those Blarites will have somewhere to go now.
 
711 said:
We seem to have a Tory-Labour coalition at the moment. Let's all Brexit together.
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Would appear that way. Which makes it all the more bizarre that people try to make out that at this moment we finally have a "real opposition".

Where is it?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The UK don't appear to have a government or an opposition.

Just random factions squabbling with each other.
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Yep

We need to get rid of Brexit, get on with running the country and get a decent, electable opposition to properly hold the governments feet to the fire.
 
Yeah let's just stop a referendum that millions took part in, I'm sure that'll go down just fine. And to think someone on here have the cheek to call politicians stupid. :wenger:
 
711 said:
We seem to have a Tory-Labour coalition at the moment. Let's all Brexit together.
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What do you want Labour to do?. If it was not for that coward Cameron ,we would not be in this mess now. The will of the people ,no matter how disastrous as been made , so let's get on with it.
 
Drifter said:
What do you want Labour to do?. If it was not for that coward Cameron ,we would not be in this mess now. The will of the people ,no matter how disastrous as been made , so let's get on with it.
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It is usually somewhere between magic up more Labour MPs/some actual Tory rebels and get rid of the Labour MPs who vote with the Tories, which was akin to Stalin a few months ago.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah let's just stop a referendum that millions took part in, I'm sure that'll go down just fine. And to think someone on here have the cheek to call politicians stupid. :wenger:
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Whatever they come back with won't get through parliament. So they'll probably have another one.
 
Drifter said:
What do you want Labour to do?. If it was not for that coward Cameron ,we would not be in this mess now. The will of the people ,no matter how disastrous as been made , so let's get on with it.
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The majority of Labour MPs are anti-Brexit, they should remove Corbyn, who is a lifelong Brexiter, stand up for their principles and argue their case.
 
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