The only benefit of Labour was the fact it was a broad church. But Starmer's purges are putting an end to that.Yeah it’s very grim. I mean the Labour Party membership is million miles better than the Tory party and if Labour winning the next means the Tories getting destroyed than it might be a positive.
But overall I can’t see any massive difference’s in policy between the two parties.
Westminster Politics
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
There is some truth to it. Keir definitely is a Tory in Labour clothing. I'd say Raynor and the rest of the party are more 'Labour' than Tory though (this is where I set myself up for @Sweet Square to prove me wrong).
For the UK, it'll be an undoubtedly positive thing for us to get rid of the Tories (as oppose to us championing Labour).
The first example, Reeves calling for failed asylum seekers to be deported quicker. That is not a Tory policy, it is just a method of exposing Tory incompetence
I tend to agree.
But I am seriously concerned about Starmers authoritarian approach. He doesn't listen to and consult people with views that differ from his.
I genuinely fear what he could impose on the country if he becomes PM.
Despite this, I agree that Tories out is essential for this country.
It's reinforcing the prejudicial message championed by the right wing, without challenge or caveat. There is plenty more wrong with the Tory approach to asylum seekers than not being the failed ones out quickly enough.
My concern with Starmer is that he’s going to pander to the right wing press, achieve nothing progressive, alienate the Labour membership and be a one term Government as the right wing press betrays hun, chews him up and spits him out at the first opportunity.
He’s absolutely terrified of committing to anything which could be deemed to be speculating to accumulate. Kwarteng’s abomination of a budget is living rent free in his head because now a true “growth” budget will be sullied by the effects that budget had, ignoring that Kwarteng’s version of a growth budget was nothing but a hand out to the richest in the county whereas a progressive growth budget could put money in the hands of those that need it, support small businesses and invest heavily in the country’s decaying infrastructure and actually achieve growth and begin to get us out of the mess we are in.
Tory government without the corruption is better but it isn’t enough and we should demand more. Forgetting the damage Brexit has caused, we’re at such a difficult moment in history with climate change and jobs beginning to disappear to AI, we desperately need imagination and the bravery to impose radical policy. The idea we just need to tighten our belt and see the next decade through is so so dangerous. We’re going to be so far behind at that point with a major reduction in quality of life.
He’s absolutely terrified of committing to anything which could be deemed to be speculating to accumulate. Kwarteng’s abomination of a budget is living rent free in his head because now a true “growth” budget will be sullied by the effects that budget had, ignoring that Kwarteng’s version of a growth budget was nothing but a hand out to the richest in the county whereas a progressive growth budget could put money in the hands of those that need it, support small businesses and invest heavily in the country’s decaying infrastructure and actually achieve growth and begin to get us out of the mess we are in.
Tory government without the corruption is better but it isn’t enough and we should demand more. Forgetting the damage Brexit has caused, we’re at such a difficult moment in history with climate change and jobs beginning to disappear to AI, we desperately need imagination and the bravery to impose radical policy. The idea we just need to tighten our belt and see the next decade through is so so dangerous. We’re going to be so far behind at that point with a major reduction in quality of life.
I don't think it is prejudicial to remove failed asylum seekers quickly. Labour highlighted that this is a symptom of a broken Asylum system. We wouldn't have the hotel usage or be trying to herd them onto death ships if we processed applications and appeals in a timely manner and got asylum seekers settled properly or, if they don't meet the criteria, removed.
This is pretty much my line of thinking too.
I'd add that Starmer and his team are not helping themselves (or society) by letting the Overton window shift right in real-time. It far harder to drag it left in this country with our rabid right-wing press having their claws firmly embedded in society. If he lets it drift too far then he could end fighting a GE campaign that's to the right of any of the past four Tory campaigns. The Tories would absolutely love this of course. If they can't win power, force your opposition to adopt your policies and ready the ground for them to re-take power 4/5 years later.
It's all very depressing.
Have I understood UK politics correct here?
Things you can blame for the state of the UK economy:
Things you can blame for the state of the UK economy:
- The war in Ukraine
- The pandemic
- Woke leftists
- Gordon Brown
- The party who's been in charge for over a decade
- Fiscal policy
- Brexit
Yep, that's pretty accurate.
Nailed it.
You've just qualified for immigration
I'm talking about the broader Tory policies on asylum.
A) is overblown as a major contribution to the problems in our society when it's not, austerity caused most of the problems we attribute to asylum seekers
B) there is no legal way for many asylum seekers to gain asylum in this country, let alone get rejected!
Foodbanks are photo ops these days.
I would love to know the characteristics of people in red the group.
Members of the House of Lords, probably.
Why do people agree to these photo ops, do they not realise they just being exploited by the very people that have driven up the need for these food banks, oops I mean community pantries..
I don't, he needs Tory votes to win.
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
Labour has urged the government to speed up the process of deporting failed asylum seekers and criticised "12 years of Tory failure" in the immigration system.
Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, said the government needed to clear a backlog removals aimed at people "who have not got a right to be here".
Asked whether she welcomed the Home Secretary's plan to ban the asylum claims, Labour's Ms Reeves told Sky News:
"The problem is the government are not deporting people today, even when their claims have failed.
"What the government need to do is get a grip of the system, process claims quicker, and ensure people who have not got a right to be here are sent home.
"That is not happening today and that is 12 years of Tory failure."
She added: “The Conservatives have been in government for 12 years now and illegal immigration is on the increase, so this is a problem that's been made under their watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eves-immigrant-suella-braverman-b2195904.html
Keir Starmer has said a 19% pay rise for nurses is unaffordable for the government.
Kirsty told him that while MPs have had a near 28% salary increase over the last decade, she has only seen an uplift of two or three percent leaving her struggling and ‘actually losing money’.
Keir replied: “Firstly, thank you for what you do as a nurse, I know how tough it is. My wife works in the NHS so this is a discussion we have almost every night so I do know how hard it is.
“I want to see nurses paid well, under the last Labour government we had two things: fair pay for workers and we didn’t have strikes. Now here we are a few days before Christmas facing the possibility of a strike on Thursday.”
While he confirmed that he wants to see this issue resolved, he added: “I think 19% is more than can be afforded by the government,”
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-sta...or-nurses-is-unaffordable-for-the-government/
Sorry.
@stw2022 come get this tory
"community pantries"
FFS, how very quaint!Edit: wait, "community" pantries, isn't that communism?
He needs the centre to centre right to win the election. There’s absolutely zero need for him to be flirting as far right as he is. You could easily attribute half of what he has been coming out with to a 2010 UKIP candidate.
It's been fifty years since anyone
won an election from the left. And even that's questionable given that the hard left think every leader that won since and including Atlee was a "Tory" at the time but like to claim them retrospectively. Give it a decade or two they'll be waxing lyrical about how socialist Blair was when comparing him to whoever the current leader of the party is then, who will almost certainly be a rotten, right-wing, treacherous Tory in disguise.
At some point the delusion this isn't a centre-right country politically will disapate. Surely?
Politics is about winning power and making a difference. For the hard left it's about letting the Tories win but feeling righteous about it.
won an election from the left. And even that's questionable given that the hard left think every leader that won since and including Atlee was a "Tory" at the time but like to claim them retrospectively. Give it a decade or two they'll be waxing lyrical about how socialist Blair was when comparing him to whoever the current leader of the party is then, who will almost certainly be a rotten, right-wing, treacherous Tory in disguise.
At some point the delusion this isn't a centre-right country politically will disapate. Surely?
Politics is about winning power and making a difference. For the hard left it's about letting the Tories win but feeling righteous about it.
Full crosstabs here: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/liyitylyr7/Internal_CoL_Should_not_W.pdf
Party and Brexit are major divides. Age is a divide in some, women are marginally more generous.
Bad definition of class (lumping in C2(= skilled manual workers) with DE(= proles), and C1(= office workers/professionals) with AB(= managers/CEOs)) means the results are meaningless for class. Especially since older surveys have shown that C1 looks more like DE and C2 more like AB when it comes to political views.
Believing that there should be an effective and efficient mechanism for deporting those who haven't established their right to be in the country being painted as some far-right extremism by itself is a distilled example of the hysteria.
It's nothing of the sort. If you think it is then surely you don't believe there should be any kind of system at all to process asylum claims. Because if you think there should be a system - preferably a better and more humane one than we have now - you accept some will not be accepted. So by accepting the need for a system you accept some people will need to be removed from the county if they don't succeed. Unless you'd want them to be removed slowly and ineffectually for....reasons grrr outrage... reasons?
That's how it works isn't it? The objection to an opposition politican saying that there should be a mechanism for removing those who haven't established their legal right to be here is nonsensical and is being held up as an example some kind of moral outrage by people who literally agree with it. This is where are now. Politician say something you agree with but you pretend you don't because being outraged is more fun
It's nothing of the sort. If you think it is then surely you don't believe there should be any kind of system at all to process asylum claims. Because if you think there should be a system - preferably a better and more humane one than we have now - you accept some will not be accepted. So by accepting the need for a system you accept some people will need to be removed from the county if they don't succeed. Unless you'd want them to be removed slowly and ineffectually for....reasons grrr outrage... reasons?
That's how it works isn't it? The objection to an opposition politican saying that there should be a mechanism for removing those who haven't established their legal right to be here is nonsensical and is being held up as an example some kind of moral outrage by people who literally agree with it. This is where are now. Politician say something you agree with but you pretend you don't because being outraged is more fun
Exactly.
When are Labour proposing the safe route option? Their legal right to be there is only lost once they have been processed and they do not have the right to stay. They are not illegal immigrants.
The point is, focusing on removing the small number of those who won't be allowed to remain in the country is completely missing the point. And missing the real problem. Both with the immigration system, the asylum system and the wider country at large.
It feeds the false narrative that asylum seekers are the root of our problems!
Thanks.
It is marginal I guess, but based on that, I would conclude 16-24 are the majority in the red group, which could suggest pessimism among young people about what people can afford.
Of course safe routes need to be opened up the immigration system is a mess. We elect Tories, this is what happens.
But everyone thinks the deportation process should be efficient, fast and cost effective. It isn't more socialist to think failed applications should be dealt with slowly and inefficiently. This game of "I'll decide how outraged I am by something when I see who's saying it" is top widespread these days
The constituency- based FPTP system makes the country appear more right-wing than it actually Is. Even in the landslide of 2019 with a highly divisive Labour leader , the Conservatives’ 43% of the vote translated into 56% of seats, while Labour’s share of both figures was around 32% and the Lib Dems was 11% of votes and 1.5% of seats. Centre to Left voters are concentrated in cities while Tories reign in the more numerous shire seats. The political discourse is skewed around the supposed interests of potential swing seats in “red wall” territory where grotesques like 30p Lee get elected.
Most asylum seekers are accepted. Deportation is not a major issue. Processing them is an issue. Amazing how the Ukrainians were processed rapidly with safe routes.
The whole issue of small boats has been blown out of all proportion by both the Tories and Labour. The Tories are horrendous but Labour are so weak.
When has the hard left ever let the Tories win? I can think of a few recent examples were the "centre-left" (so called) has let the Tories win.
You can take the poster out of the Starmer thread, but you can't take the Starmer thread out of the poster.
Yes 16-24 are over-represented in both the red and the purple groups based on a quick scan. But at least in the ones I saw, the red ones were like 1-3% at most, so probably not a real trend.
Yes, exactly.
A perfect demonstration of how far the Overton window has been dragged right.
It’s not that he’s flirting with the ‘far right’, it’s that he’s flirting ‘too far’ with the right for people’s liking, including me (even with my continual preference for him over Sunak).