What Now For Moyes?

Minimalist said:
Even if we don't make the top four this season, whilst it would be disappointing, it will not vindicate Moyes one iota.
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I think it would - but only 'to an extent', as I said. It would show that, if a proven world class manager like LvG can't even get us into the top four, than the job is actually much harder than many people might have previously thought.

Minimalist said:
It will be mainly because of lack of recruits
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Moyes wasn't afforded that excuse, so why should LvG be?

What you can say about LvG, though, is that his track record is much more likely to win him time than Moyes' was.

But this is all hypothetical for me, because I do think LvG will do well.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Is this a trick question?

The damage done to Moyes reputation is pretty much irreparable.
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But does it make him a mediocre manager who's still good for some Premier League strugglers hoping for mid-table obscurity or does his ability to take the Champions to 7th place make him the worst manager ever? Everton's performance under Martinez certainly won't help him get a job anywhere with ambition. He seems to think he's a Champions League quality manager, but he's quite obviously not.
 
NessunDorma said:
I think it would - but only 'to an extent', as I said. It would show that, if a proven world class manager like LvG can't even get us into the top four, than the job is actually much harder than many people might have thought.



Moyes wasn't afforded that excuse, so why should LvG be?

What you can say about LvG, though, is that his track record is much more likely to win him times than Moyes'.

Again, this is all hypothetical for me though, because I do think LvG will do well.
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Because Moyes made it harder for the incoming manager, that's why.

Moyes had it all on a plate for him if he had of actually been decisive.

We're out of Europe - this stops us getting certain players.

The other fact is that the other clubs above us, Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Arsenal have now added more to their squads even further.

It's not the same scenario as what Moyes walked into, at all.
 
Minimalist said:
Because Moyes made it harder for the incoming manager, that's why.

Moyes had it all on a plate for him if he had of actually been decisive.
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That's one way of looking at it. Another is that replacing Ferguson was always going to be much harder than replacing the guy who replaced Ferguson. In terms of expectation, adjustment, the psychology of it, etc. Plenty of people have said this.

Minimalist said:
The other fact is that the other clubs above us, Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Arsenal have now added more to their squads even further.
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But they had added to their squads 'even further' last season as well, relative to the one before it, so I don't really understand the argument. Arsenal made their biggest signing in a decade. Chelsea brought back Mourinho. City splurged about £90m.

Minimalist said:
It's not the same scenario as what Moyes walked into, at all.
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Of course not. And i'm not denying Moyes did badly here. I'm just saying that if LvG does badly as well, it demonstrably *will* redeem Moyes to an extent, by showing just how hard the job is (harder in some ways for LvG, but harder in others for Moyes).
 
I'm pretty sure we also have a top 4 clause in LVG's contract as well...

And if by some miracle we come 7th again, hopefully Sir Alex can briefly come out of his retirement to really steady the ship.
 
A lot of people are saying Liverpool's performances last season were aided by them not having to play CL football. So for us this up-coming season LvG has no CL football to focus on, unlike Moyes who did. Due to this we should obviously be finishing higher this season than we did under Moyes last season. In any case, I think it will be difficult to compare them because there are a lot of variables.
 
ZDwyr said:
A lot of people are saying Liverpool's performances last season were aided by them not having to play CL football. So for us this up-coming season LvG has no CL football to focus on, unlike Moyes who did. Due to this we should obviously be finishing higher this season than we did under Moyes last season. In any case, I think it will be difficult to compare them because there are a lot of variables.
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I look at liverpools forward players, much like our lack of depth at the back, their forward options should worry them now Suarez has gone, gerrard is a year older.

Look at Spurs, they bought allot of players after losing bale, but it did not really improve them to a great deal. I think our squad is better than liverpools, that is without adding another defender and a midfielder. So Liverpool going into the new season , they have got a problem with the lack of forward options
 
Sir Matt said:
But does it make him a mediocre manager who's still good for some Premier League strugglers hoping for mid-table obscurity or does his ability to take the Champions to 7th place make him the worst manager ever? Everton's performance under Martinez certainly won't help him get a job anywhere with ambition. He seems to think he's a Champions League quality manager, but he's quite obviously not.
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He'd be able to get a Champions League job in some crap European league like Denmark, Poland or Greece. He's deluded if he thinks he can get much better.
 
NessunDorma said:
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that replacing Ferguson was always going to be much harder than replacing the guy who replaced Ferguson. In terms of expectation, adjustment, the psychology of it, etc. Plenty of people have said this.
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I keep hearing this but I just can't see the likes of Mourinho giving a shit about that.

If Mourinho had replaced Ferguson, we would have seen transfer activity quickly and probably would have retained the title (if not at least been competitive.)
 
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I believe the reason Moyes is able to squeeze that extra 5% of midtable teams despite having the same level of football knowledge as other managerial dinosaurs such as Allardyce and Kinnear is because Moyes is the type that is willing to wake up that hour earlier in the morning.....I think Moyes could get that 5% more at West Ham than Allardyce does despite his football philosophy being equally as dour and ancient because Moyes will drive that extra hour each day to go and scout a young player where as the likes of equally 'talented' managers like Allardyce, Steve Kean, Kinnear wouldn't bother as they'd already be safe in their mid table comfort zone without feeling the need to worry about waking up that hour earlier each morning

Moyes has made enough money not to care about working at the top again. He should go to holland and work as a number 2 for a few years but in his own head he probably thinks he is above all that so I expect him to be Scotland manager in 2016 where he has them grinding out impressive results against decent teams by parking the bus and then lumping it forward to some giant to try and nick a goal.
 
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Next move is abroad for him now.. He seems to think he is a CL-level manager so won't return to England for a mid table club. He blew his chance at an elite club and one would think he won't be afforded a second chance.

He could still get in the CL though , I mean Celtic he was linked with or Gala although they quickly decided otherwise.

Just before he got the job here, he was being linked with German sides, Schalke IIRC.. A job like that is the absolute best he can hope for, but with his ego I actually expect him to be out of work a while until he copes himself on.
 
He'll get the Celtic job if Deila is sacked IMO. He's at the game tonight apparently.
Suits him well I guess, but doubt the supporters will be thrilled. Is he rated among fellow scots? Except for Fergie that is.. :angel:
I would think not, because of all the better scottish managers there's been over the years who's actually won stuff.
 
Ringo 07 said:
I believe the reason Moyes is able to squeeze that extra 5% of midtable teams despite having the same level of football knowledge as other managerial dinosaurs such as Allardyce and Kinnear is because Moyes is the type that is willing to wake up that hour earlier in the morning.....I think Moyes could get that 5% more at West Ham than Allardyce does despite his football philosophy being equally as dour and ancient because Moyes will drive that extra hour each day to go and scout a young player where as the likes of equally 'talented' managers like Allardyce, Steve Kean, Kinnear wouldn't bother as they'd already be safe in their mid table comfort zone without feeling the need to worry about waking up that hour earlier each morning

Moyes has made enough money not to care about working at the top again. He should go to holland and work as a number 2 for a few years but in his own head he probably thinks he is above all that so I expect him to be Scotland manager in 2016 where he has them grinding out impressive results against decent teams by parking the bus and then lumping it forward to some giant to try and nick a goal.
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Funny because it's true.
 
Cantonaaa! said:
He'll get the Celtic job if Deila is sacked IMO. He's at the game tonight apparently.
Suits him well I guess, but doubt the supporters will be thrilled. Is he rated among fellow scots? Except for Fergie that is.. :angel:
I would think not, because of all the better scottish managers there's been over the years who's actually won stuff.
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He would perfect for them. CL every year, little competition, just the cub for him. No big pressure of United.
 
Kayo said:
Funny because it's true.
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It's probably a slightly simplistic view on him, but I have no reason to doubt it. Not one bit. Thank God we have van Gaal now. The frustration from last season is long gone, but the stench of missing out on CL football is still there.

I can't really feel sorry for him either because he was always treated with respect from the crowd at OT, and he made a ton of money during his 9 (?) Months.
 
I reckon he's done at the highest level regardless of what we do this season or in the future.

Last season outed him as a small time manager who isn't good enough for the top level. At Everton he hid behind the "no money to spend" argument. At United there was no hiding.

He will still be a good manager for a midtable plodder.
 
Minimalist said:
Obviously negatively.
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:lol: Moyes' reputation will keep taking hits despite him being nowhere near the sidelines of a pitch depending on how our season goes. One of the things that really surprised me about Moyes last year was how unfamiliar he seemed with our squad. Meanwhile, LVG fresh off the World Cup appears to have been watching our players for years.

This "dithering" label stuck on Moyes seems very apt. Poor bloke couldn't make his mind up on transfers, football philosophy, on anything really. Inspires absolutely zero confidence. Doubt it took our players very long to figure out he was a fraud and not cut out for the top level.
 
He could do a good job for a Tottenham or Newcastle. He was out of his depth here but he would be good for a team that regularly comes 5th-10th place.
 
shaggy said:
He'd be able to get a Champions League job in some crap European league like Denmark, Poland or Greece. He's deluded if he thinks he can get much better.
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No club in Poland could cover 20% of his wages let alone all of it.
 
jason93 said:
He could do a good job for a Tottenham or Newcastle. He was out of his depth here but he would be good for a team that regularly comes 5th-10th place.
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There is absolutely no way he could do a job for Spurs.
 
West Ham would be an easy job for him. Obviously Newcastle etc is more a right fit in terms of size but who knows when those jobs will open. West Ham I feel will have a vacancy soon. Can stabilise them and start afresh
 
Midnight1811 said:
He would perfect for them. CL every year, little competition, just the cub for him. No big pressure of United.
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They are being knocked out from CL as we speak. 6-1 on aggregate.
 
Sarni said:
There is absolutely no way he could do a job for Spurs.
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Why not? Levy wanted him before and he got into the CL before. And he actually did pretty decent for us in the competition regardless of his failures.
 
jason93 said:
Why not? Levy wanted him before and he got into the CL before. And he actually did pretty decent for us in the competition regardless of his failures.
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How do you know Levy wanted him? I think it was just the media talking him up as a candidate.
 
jason93 said:
Why not? Levy wanted him before and he got into the CL before. And he actually did pretty decent for us in the competition regardless of his failures.
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Levy never wanted him. He was available for years and Spurs went for Redknapp and Villas Boas ahead of him.

It's been 9 years since he last got a team into CL. Well actually he didn't even then, they went out in qualifiers. In fact he took league champions and still couldn't get them to Europe at all.

His achievements in CL last season were at bare minimum required of United. We ought to get out of the group (even though we failed to twice before) and we ought to deal with Olympiakos.
 
jason93 said:
Why not? Levy wanted him before and he got into the CL before. And he actually did pretty decent for us in the competition regardless of his failures.
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Because more than just getting into Europe and sustaining the platform (which they are trying to do every season and TBF Moyes didn't achieve that on a consistent basis), Tottenham to a certain degree like United prides itself (rightly or wrongly I can't judge) on being a club that plays glamourous expansive football. It just would be an absolute mismatch of philosophies on both counts IMO.

Also he didn't really do a half decent job in Europe if you examine it closely. The group was an absolute stroll for a club of our stature, Olympiakos gave us an almighty scare (despite the vast gulf in squad strength) and Bayern were a bit subdued in March, April and onwards. He doesn't have the personality to take on Europe's best I'm afraid. One always got the sense of United having a damage control plan rather than imposing our game on the opponents.

That said your assertion that he'd be a good manager for a Top 10 club seems apt. He'd be good for Newcastle and keep them in/ around Europa League given enough time, control and some financial support. But will the Toon fans be patient enough and satisfied with the bland playing style ? I'm not too sure..
 
Zoo said:
How do you know Levy wanted him? I think it was just the media talking him up as a candidate.
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Why would he turn down Spurs if Levy wanted him? He never did.
 
Since I firmly expect Van Gaal to really change the way we play and the football phisolophy at United, I'm not going to judge him by where we finish only, certainly not in his first. That's a big difference from Moyes who seemed to mostly try to carry on as we did before, and couldn't.
 
NessunDorma said:
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that replacing Ferguson was always going to be much harder than replacing the guy who replaced Ferguson. In terms of expectation, adjustment, the psychology of it, etc. Plenty of people have said this.



But they had added to their squads 'even further' last season as well, relative to the one before it, so I don't really understand the argument. Arsenal made their biggest signing in a decade. Chelsea brought back Mourinho. City splurged about £90m.



Of course not. And i'm not denying Moyes did badly here. I'm just saying that if LvG does badly as well, it demonstrably *will* redeem Moyes to an extent, by showing just how hard the job is (harder in some ways for LvG, but harder in others for Moyes).
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It depends on so many things. Injuries, suspensions even. We can compare only when the final table is done.

This season we lost 4 first team players, let's not forget that as well. Moyes last year only added to a championship winning squad.

Arsenal brought in even better player than last year, Chelsea are much better team now and Mourinho had a season under his belt. City are good as always. It's not like this year they haven't added. The only team that looks weakened (so far) is Liverpool, but I expect to buy other players as well.

With all that in mind and if we don't buy no one till the end of the window I'm pretty confident that LvG can snatch the 4th place. It's just the difference a world class manager makes.
 
jason93 said:
Not really. He got us to the quarters. It's very rare we get further than that.
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Because we usually went out to better teams like Milan and Real Madrid before then. Don't expect us to be knocked out by Olympiakos (I know Basel) - still he was terrible tactically and van Persie bailed him out after utter disaster in Athens.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
I reckon he's done at the highest level regardless of what we do this season or in the future.

Last season outed him as a small time manager who isn't good enough for the top level. At Everton he hid behind the "no money to spend" argument. At United there was no hiding.

He will still be a good manager for a midtable plodder.
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He waited for years and years to get a big club. Obviously after United you don't expect he'll get another.
 
Probably West Ham though I think he'd prefer Newcastle

The fans hate Big Sam, he's been forced by the owners to change the style of play and by all accounts they've had a disastrous preseason

Moyes by October

Edit - Celtic definitely an outside bet now I see their European result
 
jason93 said:
Not really. He got us to the quarters. It's very rare we get further than that.
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Really? In the last 7 years United has made it past the QF in CL 4 times. I can only think of Barcelona who have better record, anyone else?
 
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