Yep, I'd go along with that. I thought 2nd or 3rd at the start of the season. Now, it's depressingly 7th, maybe 8th
Where do you expect us to finish this season?
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Yep, I'd go along with that. I thought 2nd or 3rd at the start of the season. Now, it's depressingly 7th, maybe 8th
We didn't undervalue SAF but there is no way that he is worth 30 points a season. With Mourinho I think that we would have got around the same points as last season and at-least make a decent challenge for the title. With a lesser manager like Pellegrini/Ancelotti etc we would have done again well though not as good as last season. With Moyes we aren't gonna get even Europa League and this isn't because of the players. Maybe we overrated our team a bit but there is no way in hell that this team is so much worse than Liverpool and Arsenal, let alone Spurs and Everton.
Well the principle was that Moyes got Everton 10 points away from 4th last season (63 points). Most managers wouldn't have gotten many more than this with that squad so he must be somewhat competent. Most would have laughed at the premise that he'd get merely 10 points more with our squad vs theirs.
Where did anyone place little importance on Fergie? Most posts said that we'd finish 3rd, which would place a value of around 12-15 points on Ferguson. This is a phenomenal amount of points to attribute to any one man; hell Messi wouldn't win a team 15 points on his own, compared to a competent alternative.
Obviously some said we'd be challenging for the title, but again deduct 12 points from where we were at this stage last season and we'd be 7 points behind Chelsea with a game in hand (meaning a win tonight would put us 4 points back, very much in the race).
It isn't that us fans were unrealistic or that we didn't know the value of Ferguson. It is that no manager should be anywhere near 20 points worse than their predecessors; Moyes has underachieved so significantly that even the most conservative estimates have been blown out of the water. Imagine if Everton were 21 points worse off under Martinez - they'd be in the relegation zone! Taking United to our current position is akin to taking Everton to relegation.
I can just imagine in 3 years being mid table in the Championship and other fans saying "you just didn't realise the value of Ferguson", or "he just needs a few more years to build his own team".
I think seventh, but we'll honestly need to pick up some sort of form to remain there.
a real struggle scuffling 7th/8th until after the City game, then homes against Villa, Hull, Norwich and Sunderland seeing us to 6th, and unfortunately snaking into the Europa.
I think people probably did underestimate the importance of SAF a bit. They valued him highly, but maybe not quite enough to account for his true worth.
More than that people underestimated how difficult it would be for the players to adjust psychologically when he left. Like a little kid on a bike with stabilisers, thinking he's the shit, and then you take them off and the cocky little shit goes straight down.
More than that people underestimated how difficult it would be for the players to adjust psychologically when he left. Like a little kid on a bike with stabilisers, thinking he's the shit, and then you take them off and the cocky little shit goes straight down.
simply speaking, Moyes will need players a lot better than Fergie had to get near to the same level.
We'll have to get 3 or 4 more Mata level players in for Moyes to have a real go at things. Which is pretty worrying.
We'll have to get 3 or 4 more Mata level players in for Moyes to have a real go at things. Which is pretty worrying.
I think we're about the 7th best side in the country in terms of performances, thus we'll get 7th.
I've not seen anything that suggest we're going to improve upon our performances so we're most likely at the level we'll stay this season. I don't think we'll fall further down, but I can't see us climb the table either.
I've not seen anything that suggest we're going to improve upon our performances so we're most likely at the level we'll stay this season. I don't think we'll fall further down, but I can't see us climb the table either.
Most but not all. I predicted very early that it wouldn't surprise me if we get less points than Everton last season. Not because their players are better than ours but because their players are bette for Moyes' game than our players. People were still believing (and some stil believe) that Moyes will change the system, but I can't just see it. If we give time, he obviously make our team better than this (and better than any of his Everton's teams) but still it will be a glorified version of his old team. A team made of hard workers and which is based on percentage football. Managers with less resources than him tried different things but Moyes always played the same style there. And it is a bit hard to believe that a 50 years old manager will change completely his philosophy of the game.
Will Moyes change United or will United change Moyes? I disagree with Neville, I think that the former one will happen.
This is what I find ludicrous. Before the gift of hindsight - even if we played identical tactics, we would do so with a better defence (one of Moyes' strengths), a better goalkeeper and 3-4 players who would be able to win a game with a bit of magic, even if we are playing for a 0-0. There are no tactics in the world that would lead Everton's team to a higher position than United's team under exactly the same instructions.
Worst case scenario before the season started was that he'd make us far more boring, but harder to beat. Probably leading to 6-7 less wins and 6-7 more draws. What we've seen is something worse than this, which is an achievement in itself.
But this defense isn't better than Moyes' defense under the same tactics. They are players that he has signed to play exactly that kind of football. It isn't a coincidence that players like Rafael who were brilliant last season now look average. Also about the midfield, for example Kagawa is much better than Fellaini. But if you repeatedly hoof the ball then Fellaini is your man. Everton was a squad assembled and learnt to play that way from him, this United squad isn't. It isn't hindsight, it is more how different people rated completely differently Moyes. Some thought that because he overachieved at Everton, with better players he'll overachieve here. Some were convinced that he doesn't know to play a different brand of football so better players won't make things much better.
I disagree.
The problem is not just the tactics, as we could use the exact same tactics but with more talented players and would still do better than Everton did. United hit 80+ crosses against Fulham and had around 75% possession, do you think that Everton have ever had similar stats? Of course not. So even if the tactics and style of play are the same; we have the ball more often and create more chances, so should obviously score more goals and concede less. Plus lets not act as if Baines/Coleman never left their own half, the one thing Moyes is known for is encouraging his full backs to attack.
The problem is far deeper than just tactics. The player's look demotivated, lethargic and generally confused. Obviously these are all areas that Moyes is letting us down, but they aren't areas that anyone would or could have predicted. I stand by the statement that the only people that suggested we'd fall out of the top 4 were opposition wums/conspiracy theorists and overly pessimistic United fans. I personally had Moyes as about my 25th favourite candidate to take over from Ferguson (behind the likes of Harry Redknapp), so be under no illusions as to my opinions of him as a manager. However suggesting being 7th wasn't shockingly unpredictable is ludicrous. If that was the case you could have put a couple of hundred £ on it at about 25/1 and made a small fortune.
Personally I think that the tactics and training is very linked with motivation. Other than that there were a lot of people who questioned if Moyes who hasn't won anything can motivate players who have won everything. Or if the likes of Phil Neville can give advices to improve Robin Van Persie. It was a bit weird to appoint a manager who wasn't decorated neither as a player nor as manager to manage a group of players who have won more than any other club (except Barca) in the last few years. It was a receipe for disaster. I also made a thread back then questioning if Moyes should sell the old guard immediately and most of posters said that no, they are professionals and they will help the transition. Now it seems that they aren't helping the transition at all. They are professionals but they are also humans who have worked for their biggest part of their career under the greatest manager of all time winning everything and then suddenly they are working with a guy whose biggest achievement was finishing in fourth place. How the hell can they be motivated? I always thought that the best manager would have been a strong manager (not neccesarily Mourinho though he would have been my preferred choice, someone who has a reputation to not be afraid to show players their place). Someone like Van Gaal or Bielsa for example, either players would have gone into a starving protest to have him sacked, or they would become nice boys who are afraid from the manager. Moyes looks too nice to be feared and his CV isn't too good to be respected.
We need that Europa League spot. It's a decent competition to be in, a good experience for younger players and we might actually have a shot at it if we bring a new manager in the Summer.
Besides EL winners get a CL spot from next season and it might be our only chance to get back to CL.
We need the EL like a hole in the head. Thursday/Sunday? feck that
Completely agree. I've said a few times that Moyes will go down in history as the manager who made replacing Fergie easy, because Moyes will be deleted from history and our next manager would be compared to Moyes, rather than Fergie.
In my opinion Moyes got it wrong on day 1 when he made a player who didn't want to be at the club his number one. If I was a no-mark manager going into United I'd have got any player who wanted to leave to stand forward the first day of training and sent them packing the next day. Show that no-one is bigger than the club or the manager and earn an instant degree of respect from pros who probably thought he was a fish out of water. Instead he made himself look like a small time appeaser when being asked "does Rooney want to stay?", evading the question "he's training very well".
Don't want EL spot. Mucks up any attempt to get in top four.
Why would we need top 4 next season, wouldn't it be better to get a CL spot through actually winning the Europa League?
We'll be losing them like crazy on Sundays anyway, at least we might have some mid-week entertainment to enjoy against Steaua and Rapid Wien.
So we can forget about the top 4 next season because we may win the EL?
Exactly. When Bayern players questioned Van Gaal, he apparently get off his trousers to show them that he literally has big balls. And Luca Toni was send for the remaining of the season to train and play with Bayern B (despite that he has finished the previous season as their best goalscorer). If Moyes would have sacrificed some oldies and Rooney (who at that time, 90%+ of United fans would have been happy to see Moyes showing his place) it would have been better. At-least he would had the excuse of being in a transition and replacing players takes time. It would also ensure that other players will think twice before they'll open their mouth. He looked a bit weak on granting Rooney's his wishes and basically we lost a year. Now with the replacements of players, the next year will have the transition excuse if things don't go right.
The only bright spot to being in the EL is some of the trips will be mental, where donkeys are still used as public transport etc
From a footballing POV, it's an horrendous competition to be in
I'd fancy our chances there more than when it comes to a top 4 finish in all honesty.
I find it a decent competition to be in. Better than nothing, I love European football.
I have very mixed feelings about it. Not going there makes more easy to qualify for UCL (I don't think that Moyes has on him to compete in all fronts). On the other side we would lose some money if we don't qualify from it (mainly from the ticket moneys, probably somewhere around 20m) and we'll be at best on pot 2 in 2015-2016 season in UCL (assuming that we'll qualify).
Yes Newcastle are going to catch us.
Have you seen Newcastle? If you seriously think they are anywhere near as good as us, you've got some of the most any-colour-but-red tinted glasses in the whole caf on!
Can't see us finishing higher than 6th now but wouldn't be surprised if we ended up in 7th. Disgraceful.
I think they're a million miles away from us but have you seen any of the shite United have served up this season?
I expect us to finish 7th, win the CL and deny Liverpool a place in the CL next year even though they finally managed to get back into top 4. A successful summer transfer window and back firing on all cylinders next year. A successful season all in all and work starting on a Dave statue.
Hah. Liverpool guy. DeludedWe're going to win the fecking league, so it'll be Arsenal missing out.
Feck me, it is definitely a possibility
You'll get banned though Yes, but if they're a million miles away from us, what makes you think they'll catch us?
I still think we'll finish 5th or 6th - it won't take much for us to start getting better results than Spurs / Everton (considering we've almost match with what we've served up so far). 4th has gone alright though.
If we did win the Champions League, the gloss would actually be taken off a bit if Liverpool aren't 4th.
If we did win the Champions League, the gloss would actually be taken off a bit if Liverpool aren't 4th.
Well if we win the CL and finish outside of the top 4 then the scousers get denied CL if they're 4th. So I'd rather them be 4th. They'll be celebrating finally getting CL again only to be told denied.
Because I have no confidence in United winning any game atm. We have some tough fixtures coming up and it wouldn't surprise me if we didnt win any of our next 7 (that includes 2 CL games btw)
In fact, Southampton are only 2 points behind us. How utterly fecking depressing this season has been
Nope, that rule was abolished. Both clubs would get CL.
Not according to Wiki? When was it abolished? Only 4 clubs from each can have CL no?
Nonono. This simply will not do.
A few have brought it up on here before and were told it's been gotten rid of, ever since the Chelsea/Spurs debacle I believe.
EDIT: Unless they were spouting nonsense!
A total of 77 or 78 teams from 53 of the 54 UEFA member associations are expected to participate in the 2014–15 UEFA Champions League (the exception being Liechtenstein, which do not organise a domestic league). The association ranking based on the UEFA country coefficients is used to determine the number of participating teams for each association:[5]
- Associations 1–3 each have four teams qualify.
- Associations 4–6 each have three teams qualify.
- Associations 7–15 each have two teams qualify.
- Associations 16–54 (except Liechtenstein) each have one team qualify.
- The winners of the 2013–14 UEFA Champions League are given an additional entry as title holders if they do not qualify for the 2014–15 UEFA Champions League through their domestic league (because of the restriction that no association can have more than four teams playing in the Champions League, if the title holders are from the top three associations and finish outside the top four in their domestic league, the title holders' entry comes at the expense of the fourth-placed team of their association).
Damn liars.
Looks like the rules take effect from 2015/16 along with the Europa winner rule.
http://www.london24.com/sport/uefa_confirm_new_champions_league_qualification_rules_1_2209012
Looks like the rules take effect from 2015/16 along with the Europa winner rule.
http://www.london24.com/sport/uefa_confirm_new_champions_league_qualification_rules_1_2209012