Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

sglowrider said:
Yes but what was offered to Rene was a step down and only a promotion in name. Rene had design and control of training. Moyes wants to be heavily involved, which imo is an example and a reflection of how he has misjudged the size of the United job (as opposed to his role at Everton) with other non-coaching responsibilities. This left Rene out of the primary responsibility he had under Fergie.

In that article, it also mentioned that Moyes thought the media glare would lessen once after he starts the United job... another indication of his misjudgement of the United job.

The basic problem really is that he replaced a well-oiled WINNING machine with a team that has little to no experience in the CL,winning the EPL or managing a global operation and the higher profile players. You could see the consequences coming from miles away.

Roost. Home.Hatch!
Click to expand...

We don't know if the article is true (I don't think that it is because it contradicts everything that has been mentioned before and Round actually came to the club before Rene left IIRC) but you can't say that Moyes misjudged the size of the club for wanting to be heavily involved on training. Most ofthe managers do that any wah. Fergie did that until a decade or so ago. Moyes has every right to be more involved on the training and if he really has offered to Rene the job of assistant manager, then Rene would have been involved there too.

Sky1981 said:
What's different?

Explain.

Round = Phelan

Giggs = Rene

Unless I'm missing something then? The point is, Rene >>> Giggs at this moment, and sacking him and putting Neville + Giggs there weakens us alot. It might not show against the likes of Stoke and Sunderland (tbf, it does though), but take it against Bayern, Madrid, Barca, having that extra experiences in tactical department help.

If you can't understand a simple fact that Rene > Giggs, then we don't have anything to argue.
Click to expand...

There is the old guy (Lumsen) or whatever is his name too. He is the first team coach, right?
 
sglowrider said:
Yes but what was offered to Rene was a step down and only a promotion in name. Rene had design and control of training. Moyes wants to be heavily involved, which imo is an example and a reflection of how he has misjudged the size of the United job (as opposed to his role at Everton) with other non-coaching responsibilities. This left Rene out of the primary responsibility he had under Fergie.

In that article, it also mentioned that Moyes thought the media glare would lessen once after he starts the United job... another indication of his misjudgement of the United job.

The basic problem really is that he replaced a well-oiled WINNING machine with a team that has little to no experience in the CL,winning the EPL or managing a global operation and the higher profile players. You could see the consequences coming from miles away.

Roost. Home.Hatch!
Click to expand...

Don't be fecking daft. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the manager taking training. And oh no, Moyes thought the media wouldn't be this bad, what a fatal error!

You just cling to them arguments npw that a lot of the other myths that have been floating around on here have been put to bed.
 
pocco said:
Don't be fecking daft. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the manager taking training. And oh no, Moyes thought the media wouldn't be this bad, what a fatal error!

You just cling to them arguments npw that a lot of the other myths that have been floating around on here have been put to bed.
Click to expand...


Why do you think Fergie hasn't taken over the training the past ten years?!! He has always said that the United organisation and operations has grown so much that he has a bigger team and responsibilities that are non-football team related.

You can assume that Moyes has to do these same responsibilities too.

And stop being pedantic or a prick -- I never said that not recognising that the media responsibilities at United was fatal -- only that its another sign that Moyes had little idea that the spotlight glares much bright at United and that he will be pulled in multitudes of directions due to the size of United's operations.

Thus less time for coaching (like Fergie.)
 
sglowrider said:
Why do you think Fergie hasn't taken over the training the past ten years?!! He has always said that the United organisation and operations has grown so much that he has a bigger team and responsibilities that are non-football team related.

You can assume that Moyes has to do these same responsibilities too.

And stop being pedantic or a prick -- I never said that not recognising that the media responsibilities at United was fatal -- only that its another sign that Moyes had little idea that the spotlight glares much bright at United and that he will be pulled in multitudes of directions due to the size of United's operations.

Thus less time for coaching (like Fergie.)
Click to expand...

Because he was a bit old?

Pretty much all managers do also the training. That doesn't mean that they do it from the beginning to the end and of course are helped by other coaches but they do a big part of it. So nothing wrong about Moyes wanting to do it too. SAF on the last few years was the exception, not the norm.
 
datura said:
You're right. The management team is a 'team' too. Moyes was appointed because of the job he did at Everton, for which Lumsden, Round and Woods were part of. I would be more surprised that a manager would abandon his trusted team,rather then wanting them alongside him.
Click to expand...

I agree. Personally I'd find that odd.

People are desperate to find some reason why it isnt working at the moment - but for me, this isn't it. Had he not appointed new staff, and things were not running smoothly, then he'd no doubt be criticised for not bringing his own team and trying to be Fergie Mark II by just copying what he did. I admire Moyes for having the balls to take this job on and to do what he feels he needs to to make progress, even if it means making controversial decisions. Surely this trait is one of the reasons why the club wanted him in the first place?

As I've said above, the Fergie era, as wonderful as it was is over. No good trying to replicate it by trying to do things the same and being a club that looks backwards. The club, and fans need to move forwards and back the man they've chosen to do the job so that he can have a fair chance to do it.
 
Revan said:
We don't know if the article is true (I don't think that it is because it contradicts everything that has been mentioned before and Round actually came to the club before Rene left IIRC) but you can't say that Moyes misjudged the size of the club for wanting to be heavily involved on training. Most ofthe managers do that any wah. Fergie did that until a decade or so ago. Moyes has every right to be more involved on the training and if he really has offered to Rene the job of assistant manager, then Rene would have been involved there too.
Click to expand...

Rene left before Round came to the club.

26th June, United confirm Rene departure: http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...d-confirms-departure-of-rene-meulensteen.aspx
1st July, Steve Round appointed: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23125505

Both Phelan and Steele had left about a month before Rene did. We don't know if the article is true, but I believe the bit about Rene being offered assistant manager role over what some thought (that he had been offered a role to do with youth or something, which was essentially a demotion).
 
Stack said:
Im not sure if you understand their roles as coaches at Utd.
Click to expand...
From where I sit it is you that is over estimating their abilities as coaches.

Stack said:
They will be running training drills, their job is to get the coaching points across in the training drills relative to whatever type of training session they are looking after. It may be a technical team session, an individual technical session, a tactical session which could in turn be a phase of play, small sided games tactical work, full 11 v 7, 9 0r 11 sessions. Moyes will be dictating what the sessions are, what he wants looked at and achieved. It also sounds like Moyes is more hands on than Fergie which means Moyes will be present and in charge at the more involved sessions and Giggs and Neville will be assisting him.
Click to expand...
I don't see how any of that erases the fact that any member of Fergie's more experienced back room staff would have been vastly superior to either of them at that job.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
From where I sit it is you that is over estimating their abilities as coaches.

I don't see how any of that erases the fact that any member of Fergie's more experienced back room staff would have been vastly superior to either of them at that job.
Click to expand...

You have seen and assessed Phil Nevilles drills and training sessions then?
 
The guy just took over the biggest job in football and in the last week, has had legend after legend sticking the boot in...

I'm firmly in the "Moyes is not for us" camp but Jesus, some of the stick he has got the last few days is ridiculous. Eric Harrison putting the boot in is very bad IMO. I feel awful for Moyes. He is a good manager and while I doubt he's the guy for the job, he shouldn't be getting the grief he's getting
 
.Rossi said:
The guy just took over the biggest job in football and in the last week, has had legend after legend sticking the boot in...

I'm firmly in the "Moyes is not for us" camp but Jesus, some of the stick he has got the last few days is ridiculous. Eric Harrison putting the boot in is very bad IMO. I feel awful for Moyes. He is a good manager and while I doubt he's the guy for the job, he shouldn't be getting the grief he's getting
Click to expand...

I think Moyes can handle the grief. He will have more good days and bad days this season. The next game will be tough but Moyes looks like he can cope with the criticism.
 
Stack said:
I think Moyes can handle the grief. He will have more good days and bad days this season. The next game will be tough but Moyes looks like he can cope with the criticism.
Click to expand...


As I said, I don't believe he's "the man" but Christ, Pally and Harrison sticking the boot in was ridiculous...I felt awful for him
 
Stack said:
You have seen and assessed Phil Nevilles drills and training sessions then?
Click to expand...
Seriously? I have to access Phil Neville on the training pitch to know that Meulensteen, who has over 10 years on him and has glowing recommendations from the likes of Robben, RVP from a player perspective player and Curbishley plus Fergie himself from the manager perspective is a superior coach to him currently? Really?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Seriously? I have to access Phil Neville on the training pitch to know that Meulensteen, who has over 10 years on him and has glowing recommendations from the likes of Robben, RVP from a player perspective player and Curbishley plus Fergie himself from the manager perspective is a superior coach to him currently? Really?
Click to expand...

You should actually read what was being said. If you look above you will see I am not comparing Rene with Giggs or Phil as they will have different roles in the coaching system. FFS BTW you did state it was a facht....
 
Stack said:
You should actually read what was being said.
Click to expand...
If I didn't I wouldn't have asked you that question in my last post.
Stack said:
If you look above you will see I am not comparing
Click to expand...
Then why do you keep insinuating that the likes of Rene could in superior fashion what Giggs and Neville do?


Stack said:
Rene with Giggs or Phil as they will have different roles in the coaching system. ........
Click to expand...
Which is besides the point. Giggs and Neville are occupying places on the coaching staff that could and should have been held by at least 2 members of the previous back room staff. Members who could have done the same role Giggs and Neville do whilst offering far more to other areas of coaching the team.
 
Some people just don't want to entertain the thought that this could have been handled differently...

Also, if that article is to be believed, I wonder why he offered Phelans role to Meulensteen?
 
In all of the years I have watched United, the only coaches/asst managers that have ever appeared to have a big influence on the way the team have played have been Quieroz and McClaren. Even so, we can only speculate on how instrumental they were in that.

Whatever anyone says, we don't have access to nearly enough information to judge the qualities of any backroom staff. I would have thought that our fans would be delighted to see Giggs and P Neville on the coaching staff, but instead we grieve for a man that - if interviews are any indicator - seemed to believe that it was he, not Ferguson, that was largely responsible for the titles won during his tenure.

Its also worth mentioning that the quality of our football has gradually deteriorated during Muelensteen's spell in charge of training. Using the logic above, we can't hold him responsible for this because we don't know the extent of his influence over it. However, he certainly doesn't deserve any gushing praise for it either.
 
Bilbo said:
In all of the years I have watched United, the only coaches/asst managers that have ever appeared to have a big influence on the way the team have played have been Quieroz and McClaren. Even so, we can only speculate on how instrumental they were in that.

Whatever anyone says, we don't have access to nearly enough information to judge the qualities of any backroom staff. I would have thought that our fans would be delighted to see Giggs and P Neville on the coaching staff, but instead we grieve for a man that - if interviews are any indicator - seemed to believe that it was he, not Ferguson, that was largely responsible for the titles won during his tenure.

Its also worth mentioning that the quality of our football has gradually deteriorated during Muelensteen's spell in charge of training. Using the logic above, we can't hold him responsible for this because we don't know the extent of his influence over it. However, he certainly doesn't deserve any gushing praise for it either.
Click to expand...

That is an interesting paradox, that. On the one hand, people bemoaning "slow motion zombie passing", and on the other complaining when the man who is most likely to have got us playing that way (on the basis of timing and the role he held) leaves.
 
Adebesi said:
That is an interesting paradox, that. On the one hand, people bemoaning "slow motion zombie passing", and on the other complaining when the man who is most likely to have got us playing that way (on the basis of timing and the role he held) leaves.
Click to expand...

Let it not prevent people from moaning about things we don't really know anything about though
 
Adebesi said:
That is an interesting paradox, that. On the one hand, people bemoaning "slow motion zombie passing", and on the other complaining when the man who is most likely to have got us playing that way (on the basis of timing and the role he held) leaves.
Click to expand...


That's exactly what I'm inferring in the post two above yours. Rene was well praised by some of the players while at the club, but do you remember any players every coming in public with anything other than positive things to say about coaches that were over them at that time? I don't know anything about his methods, but since he became the 1st team coach we've had near constant injuries and played drab football. Causation or correlation I don't know.
 
Of course not Irwhine, it stands to reason no player would come out and criticise a man who was effectively their line manager. Will be interesting to see how much joy Rene has at Fulham attracting United players, that would be a more believable endorsement and I have seen both Morrison and Nani linked with Fulham today alone.
 
Adebesi said:
That is an interesting paradox, that. On the one hand, people bemoaning "slow motion zombie passing", and on the other complaining when the man who is most likely to have got us playing that way (on the basis of timing and the role he held) leaves.
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself here, I have a problem with the wholesale clear out and replace approach that we took wrt our management team. I haven't got a clue what the new or old team do, or what they specialise in. I do know that the old team have a wealth of experience that the new team will have to learn from scratch as they didn't see the benefit in keeping some wise heads around. Unless someone wants to bring up promoting Giggs and Neville again...
 
To try to blame Rene for every negative part of our play but ignore the good things is pathetic. SAF praised him and Quieroz in particular in his book. That SAF advised Moyes to keep him (and the other staff) should tell you something. Our passing has regressed - Gary Neville was on Sky las tight talking about how Fulhams possession and shots per game has increased massively under Rene - and that he does a lot of work on the ball geared towards possession play in training. Several players have come out in praise of Rene's training sessions with RvP suggesting he's the best coach he's ever worked under. High praise indeed. On the other hand you have the current Everton players taking about how much more they do on the ball in training under Martinez and in contrast our players are talking about doing more running under Moyes and more work on set pieces and crossing.

I don't think SAF advised Moyes to keep the staff out of loyalty. I believe that when you have a successful infrastructure in place you shouldn't tear it apart. Blending the old and new regimes would have allowed for a smoother transition and would have made life easier for Moyes himself and the players imo. Changing all the coaching staff when the team are losing is understandable, when it's a winning system it's not unless you know what you're bringing in is better. It's unsurprising that Barcelona and Bayern kept key members of their coaching set-up despite bringing in new management because they were part of winning teams. They knew how to coach winning teams at the top and in Europe and that can help with the transition.
 
I dont have much of an opinion on it either to be honest. Sometimes I have opinions on things I know nothing about, and 90% of the time this is where those opinions are expressed. But on the specific issue of United's backroom staff I dont even speculate particularly. My view is, as in other areas where the same principle comes up, whatever works best for the manager is probably best for the club.
 
LR7 said:
To try to blame Rene for every negative part of our play but ignore the good things is pathetic. SAF praised him and Quieroz in particular in his book. That SAF advised Moyes to keep him (and the other staff) should tell you something. Our passing has regressed - Gary Neville was on Sky las tight talking about how Fulhams possession and shots per game has increased massively under Rene - and that he does a lot of work on the ball geared towards possession play in training. Several players have come our in praise of Rene's training sessions with RvP suggesting he's the best coach he's ever worked under. High praise indeed. On the other hand you have the current Everton players taking about how much more the do on the ball in training under Martinez and in contrast our players talking about more running under Moyes and more work on set pieces and crossing.

I don't think SAF advised Moyes to keep the staff out of loyalty. I believe that when you have a successful infrastructure in place you shouldn't tear it apart. Blending the old and new regimes would have allowed for a smoother transition and would have made life easier for Moyes himself and the players imo. Changing all the coaching staff when the team are losing is understandable, when it's a winning system it's not unless you know what you're bringing in is better. It's unsurprising that Barcelona and Bayern kept key members of their coaching set-up despite bringing in new management because there were part of winning teams. They knew how to coach winning teams at the top and in Europe and that can help with the transition.
Click to expand...


I'm just giving some ying to the yang. The people who are complaining about the fact that despite being offered a promotion he decided to leave only focus on his positives and never the obvious negatives. For me the reason we were winning those leagues was Fergie's motivation and man management rather than any exceptional work done on the training ground.

Of course you didn't come out instantly and tell the Rene supporters that their argument was pathetic even though largely it is even more so.
 
at the end of the day it is Moyes choice to build his own backroom team how he sees it, ultimately it will help him succeed or fail. the jury is still out on that.

In the meantime, it would be helpful, (if they have any respect for Manchester United) for former employees to keep their opinions to themselves because it sounds like sour grapes and secondly is not helpful for the club trying to rebuild itself after a huge change at the top.
 
Irwhine said:
I'm just giving some ying to the yang. The people who are complaining about the fact that despite being offered a promotion he decided to leave only focus on his positives and never the obvious negatives. For me the reason we were winning those leagues was Fergie's motivation and man management rather than any exceptional work done on the training ground.

Of course you didn't come out instantly and tell the Rene supporters that their argument was pathetic even though largely it is even more so.
Click to expand...

Why does it have to be one or the other rather than both in tandem?
There's a lot of praise out there for Rene from SAF, current and ex-players, and very little (if any) criticism. Yet some on here want to criticise him for the most negative aspects of our play despite the fact that he coached the team through one of the most successful periods in the clubs history?
Edit: and whatever way you put it the passing this season has regressed.
 
golden_blunder said:
at the end of the day it is Moyes choice to build his own backroom team how he sees it, ultimately it will help him succeed or fail. the jury is still out on that.

In the meantime, it would be helpful, (if they have any respect for Manchester United) for former employees to keep their opinions to themselves because it sounds like sour grapes and secondly is not helpful for the club trying to rebuild itself after a huge change at the top.
Click to expand...

If they believe what they are saying (as opposed to sour grapes) then they are hardly going to stfu are they? Moyes will have to shut them up by proving them wrong... that's how these things work right?
 
To be fair I see a lot more praise for Rene on here than criticism. Maybe Im looking in the wrong threads, but the one specifically looking at why he was moved on and replaced with Everton people is a love-in to be fair.
 
LR7 said:
Why does it have to be one or the other rather than both in tandem?
There's a lot of praise out there for Rene from SAF, current and ex-players, and very little (if any) criticism. Yet some on here want to criticise him for the most negative aspects of our play despite the fact that he coached the team through one of the most successful periods in the clubs history?
Edit: and whatever way you put it the passing this season has regressed.
Click to expand...

It seems that it has to be black or white, no shades of grey are allowed. We can't have nuanced answers we have to pick a side and fight for it!
 
afrocentricity said:
If they believe what they are saying (as opposed to sour grapes) then they are hardly going to stfu are they? Moyes will have to shut them up by proving them wrong... that's how these things work right?
Click to expand...

then give him time to prove them wrong! he's been there less than 6 months. They must remember that they didnt help to build United in a matter of weeks. It was a long process. Let the man and his team get on with it, only time will tell who is right and who is wrong
 
LR7 said:
Why does it have to be one or the other rather than both in tandem?
There's a lot of praise out there for Rene from SAF, current and ex-players, and very little (if any) criticism. Yet some on here want to criticise him for the most negative aspects of our play despite the fact that he coached the team through one of the most successful periods in the clubs history?
Edit: and whatever way you put it the passing this season has regressed.
Click to expand...


Dude, I'm just sick of people trying to use every little thing to beat Moyes with and this one is one of the stupidest. He offered the man a promotion and he decided to walk away. Look at the thread title for gods sake.

I also didn't criticise him. Look at the post below, I explicitly said that we can't be sure if it was causation or correlation, just as you can't say for sure it was with the fact we were winning.

Irwhine said:
That's exactly what I'm inferring in the post two above yours. Rene was well praised by some of the players while at the club, but do you remember any players every coming in public with anything other than positive things to say about coaches that were over them at that time? I don't know anything about his methods, but since he became the 1st team coach we've had near constant injuries and played drab football. Causation or correlation I don't know.
Click to expand...

One thing we do know is that almost every manager in the history of the game has his own team that move from post to post with him. If he gets sacked, they get sacked. If he moves job, they move job with him. Despite this Moyes offered him every chance to stay on he decided the time was right for him to go into management. How that can be labelled as a failure of Moyes I can't get my head around. As for the rest of the staff he's brought in, DDG seems to be excelling under his new GK coach, we are unaware as yet how our new scouting system is working and we probably won't be able to judge that fairly for a few years and even then it was Fergie's brother that retired rather than Moyes sacking him. We got a man who was a development specialist from the FA and I don't know how anyone can judge him until a few players start to either come through or not.

All in all, the criticism is unfounded, unnecessary and unhelpful. Just like most of the criticism he recieves about anything other than on field performance.
 
afrocentricity said:
It seems that it has to be black or white, no shades of grey are allowed. We can't have nuanced answers we have to pick a side and fight for it!
Click to expand...


Read the post I just typed. It seems you can't defend Moyes here but be accused of nonsense like this and what LR7 just said.
 
afrocentricity said:
It seems that it has to be black or white, no shades of grey are allowed. We can't have nuanced answers we have to pick a side and fight for it!
Click to expand...

I love Fergie, for me he is the best ever but people are almost suggesting the coaching didn't matter one bit since Fergie's motivation and Management alone was enough for us to win. It's actually absurd. Surely it played a part but why do people think Fergie kept such a keen eye on training. He was a perfectionist and demanded the best and surrounded himself with the best, that includes the coaches he praised the most, Rene and Quieroz.

And to think Rene didn't do anything special in training is just wrong. This was RvP just last season:

“The way he (Meulensteen) trains is an exceptional,” Van Persie said.“He is truly one of the best coaches in the world. I have had a lot of good trainers, but it’s the way he prepares our team for games. Every match is different, so every training session in the build-up to games is unique.
“We know exactly what to expect and he wins points for us through his training. We’ve won a lot of games by the odd goal and they are point winners, which we train for. For instance, against Chelsea I scored after a low cross from Antonio Valencia on the right. It might seem a fluke, but the whole week before the game was spent working on that move.
“Another example is my goal against Wigan, when I cut the ball inside and shot with my right foot. Again this situation, we trained on.
Click to expand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ints-for-team-with-his-training-sessions.html

It's not everyday you hear players praising their coaches like that, or in fact at all.
 
Irwhine said:
Read the post I just typed. It seems you can't defend Moyes here but be accused of nonsense like this and what LR7 just said.
Click to expand...
Defend Moyes against what?
golden_blunder said:
then give him time to prove them wrong! he's been there less than 6 months. They must remember that they didnt help to build United in a matter of weeks. It was a long process. Let the man and his team get on with it, only time will tell who is right and who is wrong
Click to expand...
I just think they are worried... a lot of people are. We run to the caf and start blubbing, they get asked a question and they say their piece. I doubt they contacted the press and released a statement. Expecting them to keep quiet is futile although I can see where your coming from.
 
LR7 said:
I love Fergie, for me he is the best ever but people are almost suggesting the coaching didn't matter one bit since Fergie's motivation and Management alone was enough for us to win. It's actually absurd. Surely it played a part but why do people think Fergie kept such a keen eye on training. He was a perfectionist and demanded the best and surrounded himself with the best, that includes the coaches he praised the most, Rene and Quieroz.

And to think Rene didn't do anything special in training is just wrong. This was RvP just last season:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ints-for-team-with-his-training-sessions.html

It's not everyday you hear players praising their coaches like that, or in fact at all.
Click to expand...


Are you drunk? Read the posts and respond to the points in the if you want, but don't take things I say out of context and use them to make a point that is blatantly untrue. I said that I felt that the motivation and man management were by far and away the determining factors in us being so successful. Basically Fergie being Fergie was worth so many points every season. That's hardly even up for debate. I've shown you exactly where I didn't say what you suggest I did but you ignore that post and keep on rambling.

Strange way to debate with someone.
 
afrocentricity said:
Defend Moyes against what?

I just think they are worried... a lot of people are. We run to the caf and start blubbing, they get asked a question and they say their piece. I doubt they contacted the press and released a statement. Expecting them to keep quiet is futile although I can see where your coming from.
Click to expand...


Have you read the thread title?

Is that not a direct attack on Moyes? Are probably 90% of the posts in this thread criticisms of Moyes for letting Rene in particular go?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.