Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

I love Fergie, for me he is the best ever but people are almost suggesting the coaching didn't matter one bit since Fergie's motivation and Management alone was enough for us to win. It's actually absurd. Surely it played a part but why do people think Fergie kept such a keen eye on training. He was a perfectionist and demanded the best and surrounded himself with the best, that includes the coaches he praised the most, Rene and Quieroz.

And to think Rene didn't do anything special in training is just wrong. This was RvP just last season:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ints-for-team-with-his-training-sessions.html

It's not everyday you hear players praising their coaches like that, or in fact at all.

Even if this is the case, it seems that Moyes likes to take control of training himself, whereas Fergie delegated a lot of the work to Rene Meulensteen, or others.

It is clearly dissapointing to lose a coach of his calibre, but in this instance it seems that the role he was offered wasnt what he was after, and as a result he left - arguably to much bigger and better things. There's a chance that this would have happened anyway as he's evidently keen to develop his own managerial career.

It doesnt seem that Moyes didnt want to keep him - but given that the role he wanted would overlap with what Moyes does that was seemingly unlikely to happen.
 
Even if this is the case, it seems that Moyes likes to take control of training himself, whereas Fergie delegated a lot of the work to Rene Meulensteen, or others.

It is clearly dissapointing to lose a coach of his calibre, but in this instance it seems that the role he was offered wasnt what he was after, and as a result he left - arguably to much bigger and better things. There's a chance that this would have happened anyway as he's evidently keen to develop his own managerial career.

It doesnt seem that Moyes didnt want to keep him - but given that the role he wanted would overlap with what Moyes does that was seemingly unlikely to happen.


I would guess that Rene was on the way out unless he was offered the top job himself. He wants to manage clearly and he's not exactly getting any younger so surely this was perfect timing for him to go do it while his stock was at it's highest.
 
Dude, I'm just sick of people trying to use every little thing to beat Moyes with and this one is one of the stupidest. He offered the man a promotion and he decided to walk away. Look at the thread title for gods sake.

I also didn't criticise him. Look at the post below, I explicitly said that we can't be sure if it was causation or correlation, just as you can't say for sure it was with the fact we were winning.



One thing we do know is that almost every manager in the history of the game has his own team that move from post to post with him. If he gets sacked, they get sacked. If he moves job, they move job with him. Despite this Moyes offered him every chance to stay on he decided the time was right for him to go into management. How that can be labelled as a failure of Moyes I can't get my head around. As for the rest of the staff he's brought in, DDG seems to be excelling under his new GK coach, we are unaware as yet how our new scouting system is working and we probably won't be able to judge that fairly for a few years and even then it was Fergie's brother that retired rather than Moyes sacking him. We got a man who was a development specialist from the FA and I don't know how anyone can judge him until a few players start to either come through or not.

All in all, the criticism is unfounded, unnecessary and unhelpful. Just like most of the criticism he recieves about anything other than on field performance.

You're forgetting that most sackings happen when a team is underperforming. This was the opposite situation. We were on the back of a successful era and SAF advised Moyes to keep the coaches in place. It's a very unique situation for winning managers to leave and at the other two top European clubs Bayern and Barcelona who were winners last season and also had managerial changes due to unforeseen circumstances like us, they kept key parts of their coaching set-up because there was no need to get rid of them as they were successful. That helped the transition.

The whole idea that people shouldn't discuss anything that might not portray Moyes in a positive light is pathetic. How is it unhelpful? I go to games and vocally get behind the lads and the manager just like most of our fans have this season. I think our fans have been brilliant on a matchday. That's what matters. Discussing certain issues on a forum is irrelevant and it doesn't mean people want Moyes to fail either. I would love nothing more than for him to turn things around and be successful here. The staunch blind defence of him by some despite obvious failings on the pitch is burying heads in the sand and it's baffling.

I can can see this discussion isn't going to be any different to our Fellaini one a few months back so I'll just leave it here.
 
You're forgetting that most sackings happen when a team is underperforming. This was the opposite situation. We were on the back of a successful era and SAF advised Moyes to keep the coaches in place. It's a very unique situation for winning managers to leave and at the other two top European clubs Bayern and Barcelona who were winners last season and also had managerial changes due to unforeseen circumstances like us, they kept key parts of their coaching set-up because there was no need to get rid of them as they were successful. That helped the transition.

The whole idea that people shouldn't discuss anything that might not portray Moyes in a positive light is pathetic. How is it unhelpful? I go to games and vocally get behind the lads and the manager just like most of our fans have this season. I think our fans have been brilliant on a matchday. That's what matters. Discussing certain issues on a forum is irrelevant and it doesn't mean people want Moyes to fail either. I would love nothing more than for him to turn things around and be successful here. The staunch blind defence of him by some despite obvious failings on the pitch is burying heads in the sand and it's baffling.

I can can see this discussion isn't going to be any different to our Fellaini one a few months back so I'll just leave it here.


Again you seem to completely skirt over key points.

1) Rene quit despite being offered a promotion.
2) I'm not saying we shouldn't criticise what happens on the pitch, I actually said on the previous page that that's what we should be critical of rather than nonsense like this.

You seem to mistake me not deciding that every single soundbite, every internal club decision that I don't know enough about and every rumoured transfer not materialising as sticking my head in the sand. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just choose to criticise on the things I know about and that are real tangible things rather than non issues like this.
 
I would guess that Rene was on the way out unless he was offered the top job himself. He wants to manage clearly and he's not exactly getting any younger so surely this was perfect timing for him to go do it while his stock was at it's highest.

Indeed.

It seems that some people think it was a bad decision to let him go. The fact is the club probably didn't have any choice. Perhaps being first team coach would have placated him, for a time, but that's not how Moyes does things, wanting to do the coaching himself.

Muelensteen may have been very succesful as a coach, but he had the opportunity because he was working under Fergie who's age probably prohibited him from coaching on a day to day basis. That wasn't going to happen under Moyes, or probably under a lot of coaches, because a young Manager will likely want to do it himself.

Even if we accept the proposition that losing him as a coach has affected the results this season - I dont see what could be done to avoid it. Other than give him the job - which would have been a massive risk in light of his lack of actual managerial experience, and evidently not the way the club wanted to go.
 
Have you read the thread title?

Is that not a direct attack on Moyes? Are probably 90% of the posts in this thread criticisms of Moyes for letting Rene in particular go?
The title that poses a question? Yeah I read it... in fact I wrote it. It's not an attack...
 
Moyes brought Steve Round in after Rene declined the assistant managers job.
Moyes replaced the GK coach and that doesnt appear to have caused a drop in form of the GK's
Moyes gave Giggs a player/coach role. Smart move as far as I can tell.
Moyes brought in Phil Neville, not sure who he replaced?. Phelan?. Cant remember the details with Phelan, was he replaced or did he move on?. I think he was replaced.
We now appear to have one more coach involved with the 1st team than before, that being Giggs.
With respect to the backroom staff, there are close to a dozen coaches at Utd dealing with the 1st team, fitness trainers, individual skill coaches etc. They have all been retained.
So replacing a GK coach and (possibly?) Phelan is a wholesale clearout as others in this thread have mentioned?. Rene's change was Rene's choice.
The thread title is misleading isnt it.
 
Moyes brought Steve Round in after Rene declined the assistant managers job.
Moyes replaced the GK coach and that doesnt appear to have caused a drop in form of the GK's
Moyes gave Giggs a player/coach role. Smart move as far as I can tell.
Moyes brought in Phil Neville, not sure who he replaced?. Phelan?. Cant remember the details with Phelan, was he replaced or did he move on?. I think he was replaced.
We now appear to have one more coach involved with the 1st team than before, that being Giggs.
With respect to the backroom staff, there are close to a dozen coaches at Utd dealing with the 1st team, fitness trainers, individual skill coaches etc. They have all been retained.
So replacing a GK coach and (possibly?) Phelan is a wholesale clearout as others in this thread have mentioned?. Rene's change was Rene's choice.
The thread title is misleading isnt it.


Martin Ferguson stood down as chief scout so had to be replaced and we also brought in an additional development officer who had worked with Everton a few years ago but was working for the FA when we contacted him.
 
Moyes brought Steve Round in after Rene declined the assistant managers job.
Moyes replaced the GK coach and that doesnt appear to have caused a drop in form of the GK's
Moyes gave Giggs a player/coach role. Smart move as far as I can tell.
Moyes brought in Phil Neville, not sure who he replaced?. Phelan?. Cant remember the details with Phelan, was he replaced or did he move on?. I think he was replaced.
We now appear to have one more coach involved with the 1st team than before, that being Giggs.
With respect to the backroom staff, there are close to a dozen coaches at Utd dealing with the 1st team, fitness trainers, individual skill coaches etc. They have all been retained.
So replacing a GK coach and (possibly?) Phelan is a wholesale clearout as others in this thread have mentioned?. Rene's change was Rene's choice.
The thread title is misleading isnt it.

Any quote on this?

A bit contradicting, this one saying Moyes wanted his own man:

"He spoke to me, Mick and Rene," Steele told fanzine United We Stand. "I told him I thought it was a brave decision. He listened to the manager's advice, but he wanted to be his own man."
"I didn't want to leave. Why would I? I knew that David was coming in and wondered who he'd bring.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...dvice-over-restructure-of-coaching-staff.html
 
There's obviously a lot we don't know, but why would SAF advise Moyes to keep on his staff (they knew about this) for them to turn around and quit? What happened there?
 
There's obviously a lot we don't know, but why would SAF advise Moyes to keep on his staff (they knew about this) for them to turn around and quit? What happened there?


The only one that we're saying quit was Rene who was offered a managers position with Anzhi. Why would he stay?

Also, Martin Ferguson quit but that was a retirement. Phelan was the most derided charachter on the caf for the last few years so I don't know why anyone would get excited about him being let go and DDG has bloomed under Steele.

These are the facts.
 
I keep coming back to this... at the time it annoyed and confused me. Now I'm starting to think this was a massive mistake. Players look like they don't respect the manager, he (and his team) doesn't seem to be ably to put the fear into them or to motivate them.

Potentially pivotal decision to make such wholesale changes overnight...
 
It's the one thing that got on my tits up to December (more things since!). It was meant to be the stability choice, then all the backroom went. Be it replaced or not wanting to work for him, in both cases ultimately the reason is Moyes. Of course, we have no insight into what effect it has, but I remember at the time thinking that's exactly the sort of ripping up the club setup Moyes' appointment was supposed to avoid.

That was the bonus, stability. Backrrom gone, many players seemingly gone or alienated, where did our bonus go?
 
Everytime I see Phil Neville and Moyes discussing in hushed tones during a match a part of me dies. What was Moyes hoping to accomplish with a support staff that is untested at this level? You don't just dismantle a winning team with a winning formula and hope for the best. Whether He fired them or walked out on him is irrelevant. He should have at least tried to bring someone with a bit of experience. Even Ray Wilkins would have helped.
 
Everytime I see Phil Neville and Moyes discussing in hushed tones during a match a part of me dies. What was Moyes hoping to accomplish with a support staff that is untested at this level? You don't just dismantle a winning team with a winning formula and hope for the best. Whether He fired them or walked out on him is irrelevant. He should have at least tried to bring someone with a bit of experience. Even Ray Wilkins would have helped.
He fired them. Why are people suggesting that they left? That was only a report (by Ducker) who said that Rene left, something that was contradicted by Rene himself.

Phelan and Steele were sacked too. Steele confirmed that himself.

What was Moyes trying to accomplish? I guess he wanted to stay in his comfort zone. There is no other explanation.
 
Can u blame them for not wanting to take orders from a nobody.

If i were in their shoes, having won everything (albeit as coaches), i would have real problem listening to moyes with his shit tactics. Give him a benefit of doubt perhaps, but before long I'd start questioning his ability when things didnt go as planned.

Call me nything, but i believe thats the way the world goes.

Would u guys take me seriously if i was chosen as modmin? Probably something along that line
 
Everytime I see Phil Neville and Moyes discussing in hushed tones during a match a part of me dies. What was Moyes hoping to accomplish with a support staff that is untested at this level? You don't just dismantle a winning team with a winning formula and hope for the best. Whether He fired them or walked out on him is irrelevant. He should have at least tried to bring someone with a bit of experience. Even Ray Wilkins would have helped.

My word
 
All the people Moyes brought did not have any experience in winning the premier league or the Champions league as coaches. So it was bad mistake made by Moyes. Should have listen to Ferguson's advice. Looked at their stupid decision to change a winning team from the last game.
 
Can u blame them for not wanting to take orders from a nobody.

If i were in their shoes, having won everything (albeit as coaches), i would have real problem listening to moyes with his shit tactics. Give him a benefit of doubt perhaps, but before long I'd start questioning his ability when things didnt go as planned.

Call me nything, but i believe thats the way the world goes.

Would u guys take me seriously if i was chosen as modmin? Probably something along that line

Would they if we welcomed a man who had just relegated his club to the Championship?

We are in this shit partly because of the mindset you are representing here. Ferie's staff is not here anymore, but one feels that the players are in a comfort zone because Fergie's successor isn't...Fergie.

The players are paid obscene amounts of money to play for MUFC as they are told by the manager. It doesn't say anywhere that their manager has to be the most decorated ever in the game. That's part of the psychological aspect of our downfall. Is it partly Moyes' fault? Of course, he is not Fergie after all. However, this would have happened to some degree with any non-Fergie replacement.
 
All the people Moyes brought did not have any experience in winning the premier league or the Champions league as coaches. So it was bad mistake made by Moyes. Should have listen to Ferguson's advice. Looked at their stupid decision to change a winning team from the last game.

Fergie's team once adviced him to play Rafael and Park in CM, which resulted in losing at home to Blackburn and losing Pogba to Juve for nothing. The starting line up last night was a joke, but not signing a CM for 6 years is not Moyes' sense of humour
 
...The players are paid obscene amounts of money to play for MUFC as they are told by the manager. It doesn't say anywhere that their manager has to be the most decorated ever in the game. That's part of the psychological aspect of our downfall. Is it partly Moyes' fault? Of course, he is not Fergie after all. However, this would have happened to some degree with any non-Fergie replacement.
All well and good but it's down to the manager and his team to get the best out of the players... judging by the performances, it's not working. Fergies replacement didn't need to be a carbon copy, but he needed to be able to control and motivate top top players, and he needed to know how to challenge for titles and trophies. Two attributes that Moyes and his staff fall short in... among others.

Fergie's team once adviced him to play Rafael and Park in CM, which resulted in losing at home to Blackburn and losing Pogba to Juve for nothing. The starting line up last night was a joke, but not signing a CM for 6 years is not Moyes' sense of humour
Huh? Say what?
 
All well and good but it's down to the manager and his team to get the best out of the players... judging by the performances, it's not working. Fergies replacement didn't need to be a carbon copy, but he needed to be able to control and motivate top top players, and he needed to know how to challenge for titles and trophies. Two attributes that Moyes and his staff fall short in... among others.

Huh? Say what?

Fergie and his team made massive mistakes too. The players were mostly still motivated and wanted to play for Fergie after those mistakes. If they don't after Moyes' mistakes then they're not being professional. Moreover, with the pressure mounting on Moyes (including from fans) I feel some players don't take responsibility for their own failings because they know where criticism is going to be directed.
 
Ok, and you think this would have been the same had the backroom staff not changed? or the manager? (ok the last one is rhetorical)
 
Would they if we welcomed a man who had just relegated his club to the Championship?

We are in this shit partly because of the mindset you are representing here. Ferie's staff is not here anymore, but one feels that the players are in a comfort zone because Fergie's successor isn't...Fergie.

The players are paid obscene amounts of money to play for MUFC as they are told by the manager. It doesn't say anywhere that their manager has to be the most decorated ever in the game. That's part of the psychological aspect of our downfall. Is it partly Moyes' fault? Of course, he is not Fergie after all. However, this would have happened to some degree with any non-Fergie replacement.

No one is fergie, but moyes is far from competent cv wise.

There's a reaso why ceo are picked from successful candidates with achievement, not just some nice guy from the block
 
The thread will probably only be a page long but I just want someone to explain to me why it was a good idea.

Moyes got rid of our successful backroom because to do so provided him with extra job security, there's no other logical reason.

And further still, it was the first sign of how cautious and self doubting Moyes is as a manager.

There's no way Moyes, coming from Everton, could've thought for one second that replacing the championship winning coaching team of Phelan and Rene with Steve Round and Phil Neville would improve Manchester United...no-one would entertain such a notion.

Rene and Phelan trained this squad, remember, and we know that SAF would delegate tactically massively to Rene. These were coaches that the players famously got on with and respected - look at RvP's quotes about Rene, and look at his quotes now...look at the squad spirit last season compared to this season for heaven's sake.

If Phelan and Rene had stayed in their previous roles it would've given Moyes the opportunity to learn, and it would've eased the transition.

I'll reiterate that Fergie didn't train these players, as it's a crucial point. It's quite possible that the departures of their every day trainers effected some of the players more than the departure of Fergie did.

So why not keep them? What possible benefit could come from replacing them with Round and Phil Neville? They weren't kept, in my opinion, because their presence - should Moyes fail to do his job properly - would almost certainly equal less time in the job for Moyes...

Since Moyes has failed to do his job properly we can quite easily answer the following hypothetical: if Rene and Phelan were here right now, and Moyes were struggling this badly, would it be more, or less likely that he'd be removed from his position and the pair of them would be given the wheel until the season's close? The answer is fairly obvious.

But without them, and indeed without any worthwhile number 2, what option do we have but to keep Moyes 'til at least the end of the season?

The irony, of course, is that if he'd kept them we wouldn't be in this mess. But as we've seen over years with Moyes - he is a guarded, cautious and most crucially to this point - unconfident manager. He doesn't have the ego or self-belief needed to see that keeping those two would actually help him, he would've viewed their presence as a threat and thus they had to go.
 
At least you didn't have to endure watching him in Centre Mid when he was miles past it, horrible viewing.

I'd happily, happily have Phil Neville taken from our coaching team and put into our squad as a midfielder. I guarantee you we'd certainly be no worse off.

That's how laughably bizarre the current scenario is!
 
I'd happily, happily have Phil Neville taken from our coaching team and put into our squad as a midfielder. I guarantee you we'd certainly be no worse off.

That's how laughably bizarre the current scenario is!

Believe me, you would.
 
Believe me, you would.

I'll put it to you in the form of a question...

Would you rather:

A. Have Phil Neville back at Everton as a head coach who's tactical input, however inept, would be valued by Roberto Martinez?
B. Have Phil Neville back in Everton's squad as an emergency option should Martinez, for some reason, need him?

*raises an eyebrow and sits back smugly*.
 
I'll put it to you in the form of a question...

Would you rather:

A. Have Phil Neville back at Everton as a head coach who's tactical input, however inept, would be valued by Roberto Martinez?
B. Have Phil Neville back in Everton's squad as an emergency option should Martinez, for some reason, need him?

*raises an eyebrow and sits back smugly*.

A - Opinions/Tactical input can be valued but they don't have to be acted upon. :)
 
A - Opinions/Tactical input can be valued but they don't have to be acted upon. :)

But lets say, for the sake of accuracy, that Martinez has hired Phil as a head coach because he obviously does intend to act upon his tactical input...

That's what Moyes has done...what then, SW, what then?
 
But lets say, for the sake of accuracy, that Martinez has hired Phil as a head coach because he obviously does intend to act upon his tactical input...

That's what Moyes has done...what then, SW, what then?

Option C - Operation eliminate Phil Neville.