But it's not just them.
UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
But it's not just them.
Different time,different circumstances and just won't work.
Totally, it's multigenerational, kids to day are the disaffected kids of disaffected kids.
Its a topic I've done a lot of reading around. The biggest shift, as I say, has been moving from a situation where relationships with those around us were the key thing in our lives to one where how much stuff we have is most important.
There's no doubt that society is more materialistic than ever. A study I read from the University of Minnesota which showed that the more materialistic people are the less capable they are of having satisfying interpersonal relationships, and are more inclined to experience conflict anger and violence. That study linked everything back to attachment theory (basically the quality of the relationship between mother and child in very early life).
Weaste won't be happy...that Sony building is fecked.
And not everyone with lung cancer is a smoker but I can still say with confidence that smoking causes lung cancer.
All from Liverpool last night. Insane.
but how do you know it wont work, 2 years having some discipline and respect drummed in to you can only be good , cant it?
Stupid comparison. The people who aren't smokers clearly don't want to get lung cancer. The people who get involved in riots want to get involved in them, irrespective of where they live.
Madness. Utter madness.
Oh no you didn't...
Innocent bystanders?
[Joke about how Liverpool is always like that]
What? There is a difference between me walking on the high street and being involved in the riot, and a rich kid donning a hoody and looting a shop actively participating in the riots.
Thieving and looting across the country. London calls it 'an abomination', Birmingham calls it 'a disgrace', Liverpool calls it 'a Monday'.
Can't disagree with that.
Ah, maybe I was taking the smoking analogy too literally - i.e. passive smoking...
Didn't what? Should I have said participate in riots. I just don't see the comparison, one is out of ones control (as you said not a smoker) and the other is clearly in someones control.
The question isn't irrelevant, it relates directly to the differing standards of parenting and values instilled in kids who grow up facing the same issues.
Its a question of what and how parents teach their kids, if 2 kids grow up in the same tower block facing the same issues, one goes looting the other doesn't, my argument is that the role of parenting in those circumstances is key.
Totally different arguement there pogue as who will and who wont get heart disease will be largely dependent on genetic predisposition to heart disease.
And the mother whose a crack addict, do you not think there's the possibility that her being a crack addict is the result of the parenting she received? As I've said, its a multi-generational issue.
Poverty and social exclusion set the tone for fecking up communities but they dont do it in and of themselves, the reactions and attitudes of people involved do the fecking up.
Its not poverty and social exclusion that are burning down shops and destroying shit all over London, its the attitudes of people who think its ok to go out and burn down those shops, destroy peoples property and just take what they want.
Nothing wrong with discipline and respect.But i would rather see that from the parents and schools which have been hampered by politicians.
Consumerism is just an inevitable consequence of a capitalist system. Capitalism is consumerism really as it relies on increasing consumer demand to grow the economy. The same system left unchecked also tends to result in a widening wealth divide and increased inequality. The two problems are linked at heart. Criticising people for consumerism in a capitalist society is pretty disingenuous at it's what drives our system of growth.
Is it another day expected of this then? Or will something change? Don't get me wrong, I feel for the police and understand they are and have been between a rock and hard place through his entire ordeal, but I can't help thinking that had a tougher stance been taken at the start, or even in the daytime yesterday, it wouldn't be this bad. Of course, it may have escalated to something far worse than what we've seen had they taken a firmer approach, but with it spreading and more people getting involved, is it too late for them to start anything now? I can understand the logic of the police staying back to discourage further escalation early on, but as that seems to be happening with growing force, there has to be a change of tactic?
more and more are showing off on social media networks, whether its bragging about stuff they have stolen, trashing houses when parents are away or "happy slapping", perhaps its time they looked at those outlets
cant disagree with that , discipline in schools and from SOME not all parents is very lacking.
To take the argument your making to its logical conclusion Pogue, we'd stop prosecuting criminals from socially disadvantaged areas and start treating them as victims of a class divide or social exclusion.
Parents - yes
Schools job should be to educate, not to discipline, kids should learn how to behave at home.
Reports state that the police have been ordered to back off. Seriously?!?
Can you imagine the Australians doing that!!
We open our borders, give people homes and benefits, health care and a safe place to live, and THIS is our thanks...... will we ever learn
What's that got to do with this?
This is not about multiculturalism/assimilation or immigrants being freeloaders.
Not sure what coverage you're watching....but everything on Sky/BBC/CNN shows a big mix of races, the common factor being CHAVS.
London Riots: Shop-owners defend their businesses in east London - video | UK news | guardian.co.uk
Turkish shop owners get together to protect their shops, businesses and streets
Apparently Bristol is very out of hand now.
Footage from yesterday:
Footage from yesterday:
Reports state that the police have been ordered to back off. Seriously?!?
Can you imagine the Australians doing that!!
We open our borders, give people homes and benefits, health care and a safe place to live, and THIS is our thanks...... will we ever learn
If they have been told to back , maybe due to lack of man power and not wanting to make a bad situation even worse.
Where has it been said it is these people doing the damage , I would bet 99% are not these ,but born and breed in this country.
They can be both criminals that need to be prosecuted, and victims of social exclusion and relative poverty.
See I don't see it as that, I find the excuse of social exclusion and poverty multiplies the problem as it places the blame elsewhere instead of on personal responsibility. I do agree there are problems caused by them and these things happen in these areas but until there is an acceptance of a criminal class in the country that has been there for years that helped to create this us and them situation. It's the old don't grass syndrome, the only people that actually protects are those doing the harm yet it is widely accepted as a matter of personal honour and even used by people who don't come from any poor background. Children live under the belief that if they belong to some gang then they are protected on the streets. In fact they end up in more danger. The problem is the police aren't allowed to touch the kids and the gangs of old that policed their own areas have grown old and no longer have the capability or inclination to do so, the ones that have replaced them all don't care. This left a vacuum of social control that the police never retook. A curfew in the areas and police brutality is the only way I can see this being solved in the short term. Regain control and then rebuild. Otherwise it's a case of wait it out, let it die down as economically it's not really affecting things nor the rich or the powerful coming to harm. Then once schools re-open it's their problem again.
That footage just shown on Sky was crazy , like they said ,kids ripping up there own streets.
Right.....ok so they are poor.......so what.....does that mean they should get given to them what others have to work for? Does it buggery. Get a damn job and work for what you want like everyone else.....no jobs? Balls, no jobs you think are good enough for you you mean....Mcdonalds are always hiring....there are always cleaning jobs....but that aint as Gangsta as mugging someone or looting a shop is it.
Parliament to be recalled on Thursday.
Why not ,today.
But to be honest what are they going to do , you will get both side , bleating like sheep about what they would or would not do.
Why not ,today.
But to be honest what are they going to do , you will get both side , bleating like sheep about what they would or would not do.
Now I think the police over there are too over the top, but this kind of thing at 50 seconds should happen in London. Iron fist time, enough is enough.
Poor sods, you know they'll be arrested in the coming months for carrying a weapon.
Don't know if this has been shared. But that is low.
I think some people are reading too much into this.
You had a protest, that got a bit violent, and when the police failed to deal with it, it emboldened other idiots to have a go across London. The last 36 hours has seen other idiots across the country joining in.
Classic case of mob mentality.
There are kids throwing rocks and bricks who are barely 12/13 years old, what discrimination/lack of employment have they suffered from? The lack of aggression by the police has made it a free for all, and until the Police act more assertively, mobs will continue to engage in this.
You had a protest, that got a bit violent, and when the police failed to deal with it, it emboldened other idiots to have a go across London. The last 36 hours has seen other idiots across the country joining in.
Classic case of mob mentality.
There are kids throwing rocks and bricks who are barely 12/13 years old, what discrimination/lack of employment have they suffered from? The lack of aggression by the police has made it a free for all, and until the Police act more assertively, mobs will continue to engage in this.
So we don't see the fact that they came from disadvantaged backgrounds or that they are the 'victims' of drink, drugs, abuse, used as some sort of defence in trials?
I'm not saying social inequality isn't an issue but based on the research I've done into it I think the attitudes and values being passed on from parents to children are as big and issue and one which cross social and economic divides.
I think they are responsible for a shift in societal behaviour over the past 50-60 years and explain why today its far more acceptable to burn down your neighbours business to get yourself a new pair of trainers, or why its ok to steal from an injured teenager while a crowd watches than it would have been even 30 years ago.
I think it explains why the world is in the shape its in from an economic perspective, why the world health organisation now considers depression to be a global epidemic, and why they predict that in 20 years it will be the second most debilitating disease.
Worst of all I think these attitudes are more and more establishing a structure of society which serves the few and ignores the many, and in turn is being driven by those few.
That youtube vid is shocking. Dirty bastards