UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)

Neutral said:
I think some people are reading too much into this.

You had a protest, that got a bit violent, and when the police failed to deal with it, it emboldened other idiots to have a go across London. The last 36 hours has seen other idiots across the country joining in.

Classic case of mob mentality.

There are kids throwing rocks and bricks who are barely 12/13 years old, what discrimination/lack of employment have they suffered from? The lack of aggression by the police has made it a free for all, and until the Police act more assertively, mobs will continue to engage in this.
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TBF, I think what some of us are trying to address now is why 12/13 year olds are out participating in this.
 
Let's not pretend that "poverty and social exclusion" is a new thing in society. It's been around for centuries. It was around when I was a kid but this sort of behaviour wasn't considered acceptable by anyone, poor or not.

The difference between now and then is how people choose to deal with it.
 
Neutral said:
I think some people are reading too much into this.

You had a protest, that got a bit violent, and when the police failed to deal with it, it emboldened other idiots to have a go across London. The last 36 hours has seen other idiots across the country joining in.

Classic case of mob mentality.

There are kids throwing rocks and bricks who are barely 12/13 years old, what discrimination/lack of employment have they suffered from? The lack of aggression by the police has made it a free for all, and until the Police act more assertively, mobs will continue to engage in this.
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Exactly, all this social deprivation is a load of shit. There's no underlying point to this, just a bunch of dickheads with an opportunity to steal and terrorise.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Right.....ok so they are poor.......so what.....does that mean they should get given to them what others have to work for? Does it buggery. Get a damn job and work for what you want like everyone else.....no jobs? Balls, no jobs you think are good enough for you you mean....Mcdonalds are always hiring....there are always cleaning jobs....but that aint as Gangsta as mugging someone or looting a shop is it.
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It's not an excuse, it doesn't mean they should, but it's an explanation. I don't come from a wealthy background, and I spent some time unemployed, but I would never do anything like this, it horrifies me. The fact is though, low employment, a poor economy, people having no money etc., it is a factor which causes this sort of thing. This doesn't mean that what these people have done is acceptable or excused, nor that they should escape punishment, they absolutely shouldn't, but it would be reactionary and short sighted to simply say 'they are bastards, crack their skulls in' and not do anything about what's causing them to riot in the first place.
 
people will always do things when they get away with it, whether its bullying, skiving off work, jibbing at matches or rioting.

which all boils down to people trying to get stuff for free. If theres no-one saying "thats wrong" rather than laughing about it with them, whats to deter them from doing it again?
 
kietotheworld said:
short sighted to simply say 'they are bastards, crack their skulls in' and not do anything about what's causing them to riot in the first place.
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Unfortuanetly you have to take the short sighted stance first to then be able to divert your resources to the bigger porblem.
 
golden_blunder said:
people will always do things when they get away with it, whether its bullying, skiving off work, jibbing at matches or rioting.

which all boils down to people trying to get stuff for free. If theres no-one saying "thats wrong" rather than laughing about it with them, whats to deter them from doing it again?
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Exactly.
 
golden_blunder said:
people will always do things when they get away with it, whether its bullying, skiving off work, jibbing at matches or rioting.

which all boils down to people trying to get stuff for free. If theres no-one saying "thats wrong" rather than laughing about it with them, whats to deter them from doing it again?
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The cops sitting back has literally gobsmacked me.
 
Feed Me said:
What do you want him to do?

Go into forensic detail about what they're planning to do to combat it?
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well it's pretty much what he said though, wasn't it?

i don't think anybody was really expecting anything but platitudes.
 
gambit28 said:
Unfortuanetly you have to take the short sighted stance first to then be able to divert your resources to the bigger porblem.
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Of course, you have to take short term measures, but to just ignore any examination of the bigger problems causing this, or just dismiss it as being an excuse for the people who are doing this, that's wrong. There are more than enough commentators who are talking about how to deal with this in the short term, the bigger problems can also be discussed.
 
golden_blunder said:
people will always do things when they get away with it, whether its bullying, skiving off work, jibbing at matches or rioting.

which all boils down to people trying to get stuff for free. If theres no-one saying "thats wrong" rather than laughing about it with them, whats to deter them from doing it again?
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Spot on GB.

It's so simple, yet seemingly so impossible to stop.
 
kietotheworld said:
Of course, you have to take short term measures, but to just ignore any examination of the bigger problems causing this, or just dismiss it as being an excuse for the people who are doing this, that's wrong. There are more than enough commentators who are talking about how to deal with this in the short term, the bigger problems can also be discussed.
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Which they have been and will be.
 
Red Defence said:
It's worried me. What message does it give to the looters?
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The message it has given is the real cause in the escalation of the looting and violence more so than any sociological background p roblems.
 
If i was a shopkeeper i'd be sitting with a shotgun and a big dog

edit: actually, whats the law if you shoot someone whilst they are breaking into/broke into your shop and looting?
 
kietotheworld said:
It's not an excuse, it doesn't mean they should, but it's an explanation. I don't come from a wealthy background, and I spent some time unemployed, but I would never do anything like this, it horrifies me. The fact is though, low employment, a poor economy, people having no money etc., it is a factor which causes this sort of thing. This doesn't mean that what these people have done is acceptable or excused, nor that they should escape punishment, they absolutely shouldn't, but it would be reactionary and short sighted to simply say 'they are bastards, crack their skulls in' and not do anything about what's causing them to riot in the first place.
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You sound like you are in/have been in similar situations as myself and many posters on here, the difference is you would never dream of behaving in this manor, neither would I. You say that we cannt NOT do anything about it....like what, the choices as far as I can see are A: they get a job and earn things, B: They dont get a job, and the tax payer GIVES them what they want or C: they dont get a job, steal what they want and get the most severe punishments available.
 
vuc said:
16,000 police on the street tonight.

Let them have free reign, and the riots will be finished tonight.
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The majority of those police aren't trained for riots, I'm not sure it will be that simple.
 
golden_blunder said:
If i was a shopkeeper i'd be sitting with a shotgun and a big dog

edit: actually, whats the law if you shoot someone whilst they are breaking into/broke into your shop and looting?
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I'd like to think it's the same as someone breaking into your house. You should have the right to defend all property you own.
 
Hectic said:
The majority of those police aren't trained for riots, I'm not sure it will be that simple.
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You are right, but a presence that large should deter some of those little cnuts off. The problem is even if there are 20,000 of them, and they are passive, not much will change. I've no idea why they haven't used the kettling method as of yet.
 
golden_blunder said:
If i was a shopkeeper i'd be sitting with a shotgun and a big dog

edit: actually, whats the law if you shoot someone whilst they are breaking into/broke into your shop and looting?
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Unless you had more shopkeepers behind you you'd be torn apart by the rest of the mob after you made your stand. You'd have your gun and the next minute you'd have about 7 bricks hitting you and swarmed.

I admire what the Turkish shop keepers are doing, it's brave but it's bloody dangerous.
 
vuc said:
You are right, but a presence that large should deter some of those little cnuts off. The problem is even if there are 20,000 of them, and they are passive, not much will change. I've no idea why they haven't used the kettling method as of yet.
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I hope so, but that's the issue I see too. Clearly the amount of police is an issue, but it comes down to their tactics, if they are passive, it will not change a single thing. If they take on the rioters, I can see that either helping the situation or escalating it further. It's an impossible situtation.

pauldyson1uk said:
Your right it is not that simple and where are these extra 10,000 Police coming from.
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No idea, let's hope it doesn't spread to those places.
 
Eyepopper said:
To take the argument your making to its logical conclusion Pogue, we'd stop prosecuting criminals from socially disadvantaged areas and start treating them as victims of a class divide or social exclusion.
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Another straw man. There's a huge difference between discussing a cause for behaviour and deciding that the behaviour in question is justified.

I'm going in circles here, so I should probably bow out. I'm making a really very simple point that being brought up in inner city deprivation will have been an important factor (and for the umpteenth time, no, not the only factor) in so many kids running amok last night. I'm actually astonished that so many of ye seem to be refusing to accept this but there you go.
 
Hectic said:
I hope so, but that's the issue I see too. Clearly the amount of police is an issue, but it comes down to their tactics, if they are passive, it will not change a single thing. If they take on the rioters, I can see that either helping the situation or escalating it further. It's an impossible situtation.
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I would argue that it's hard to see how they could escalate it further.. therefore it's time to go in heavy handed. The majority of the little cnuts would scarper, some would inevitably stay and try to retaliate in a possibly more violent manner.. This kind of thing would have been stopped anywhere else but England.
 
vuc said:
Bussed in from all over the place apparently. Question is: Where were they last night?
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I can imagine only a certain amount of them would be front-line trained, even fewer of that number trained for riots. Complete speculation, but I imagine they wouldn't have wanted to bring that number in yesterday, for hopes it would die down, and to put more officers at risk who might not be trained for the situation. The former commander yesterday was pointing out that all those normal police officers will not do anything, as they aren't trained for this situation, so their presence is just that, a presence. I'd imagine this is either a last resort to bring calm and order to the streets tonight, or a significant use of nearby police resources, which I doubt.
 
stubie1234 said:
I'd like to think it's the same as someone breaking into your house. You should have the right to defend all property you own.
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Why do I get this feeling that if you did injure/kill some one looting in your house, the police would come flying in and arrest you for attempted murder/murder. while the rest of the Police stand around with their softly softly approch watching peoples homes and livlelyhoods burn.
 
Hectic said:
I hope so, but that's the issue I see too. Clearly the amount of police is an issue, but it comes down to their tactics, if they are passive, it will not change a single thing. If they take on the rioters, I can see that either helping the situation or escalating it further. It's an impossible situtation.



No idea, let's hope it doesn't spread to those places.
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If it carries on tonight and that is a big possibility , is it not time for the Police to escalate it , to bring it to an end.
I know its the old , it will get worse before it gets better , is that not the case now.
The other thing is all Police cells are full in London and they are taking them else where , what happens tonight ? where do they go?
 
Red Defence said:
Let's not pretend that "poverty and social exclusion" is a new thing in society. It's been around for centuries. It was around when I was a kid but this sort of behaviour wasn't considered acceptable by anyone, poor or not.

The difference between now and then is how people choose to deal with it.
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feck me. How can so many of you repeatedly throw up the same old straw men?

Has anyone - in this thread or anywhere else - said that they consider this behaviour acceptable?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Another straw man. There's a huge difference between discussing a cause for behaviour and deciding that the behaviour in question is justified.

I'm going in circles here, so I should probably bow out. I'm making a really very simple point that being brought up in inner city deprivation will have been an important factor (and for the umpteenth time, no, not the only factor) in so many kids running amok last night. I'm actually astonished that so many of ye seem to be refusing to accept this but there you go.
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I've agreed with it in part.
 
vuc said:
I would argue that it's hard to see how they could escalate it further.. therefore it's time to go in heavy handed. The majority of the little cnuts would scarper, some would inevitably stay and try to retaliate in a possibly more violent manner.. This kind of thing would have been stopped anywhere else but England.
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I was saying this yesterday, it's impossible to know what might have happened if Police heavily stepped in yesterday, or Sunday night, but the fears of it escalating if they did, are already being realized, so at this point we have to stop worrying about further escalation, and deal with the situation as of right now, which is highly volatile and unsafe. We also can't assume things are going to die down on their own accord, as it's increased to non-local areas, as well as during the daytime.
 
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