UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)

And after you take their benefits away you lot should probably start up eugenics again!
 
Mockney said:
It's a bit of six of one, half a dozen of the other. He's right about the root reason for people rioting, but he's wrong about their motivation for rioting..If that makes sense?

Anyone who lives in London who hasn't been living in a bubble will know this kind of thing has been building for a while. I didn't expect it this soon, or like this, but I thought something would happen eventually. The inequality is rife, and before anyone points out that relatively the underclass here have it much better than most in the world, that isn't the point. Most people only really care about their own sphere of influence or environment when it comes down to unhappiness. You'll rarely be able to shake a movie star out of depression or drug addiction, or bankers from wanting yet another bonus by pointing out there are starving kids in Africa. So it's unlikely to resonate much with kids who have a lot less than those immediately around them.

London has been getting steadily more and more "gentrified" over the last few decades. Areas like Brixton and Notting Hill, Camden, Hoxton & Shoreditch and even Clapham have gone from being relatively dodgy, to relatively harmless, to fashionable and even genuinely up market.. . Stratford being a contemporary case in point, as it's currently undergoing this "improvement" as we speak in time for the Olympics.

But how is it being improved? How was Brixton, or Hoxton? Not by improving the conditions and outlets for the people living there that's for sure, but by building reams of up-market flats and moving in the middle classes. Then building expensive bars, shops and other establishments to cater for this new kind of population..And hey presto, you have a nice area. But what happens to all the people who were in that area? They suddenly can't afford to go to any of these places, and begin to feel alien in their own area...I can't move for new posh flats being built in South London, and I can't really see how it's helping anyone currently IN the area. It's all about moving people who can afford them in...One of the best points he makes is about drug money being kept by the treasury. It should be going back into the community. But that's the last thing the government would think to do with it..

On the other hand though, to claim that all, let alone even most, of these rioters are out on the streets because they want to be heard is nonsense..They're out because they think its fun, and they want free shit. And a good amount are attempting to justify it with this political rhetoric as an excuse to detract from it's selfish origins...But the reason they think it's fun, and the reason they're selfish, is certainly because of the perceived bleakness of their situation...
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Very good post Mockney. I completely agree and I see where you are coming from. I wanted to support the bold text above.

Brixton is a perfect example of this. Obviously you've been there, but for those who haven't, it's quite remarkable. You can practically see the dividing line between working class and middle class. It's unreal. Once you pass the MacDonalds / KFC intersection you cross over into the world of the middle class. A world where you can attend films at the Ritzy; a cinema that allows you to bring booze into the theaters because they trust you. A place that cooks up some fine pizzas and a variety of other dishes priced in the £8.00 - £15.00 mark. A cinema that has 3 layers, a number of bars and a private function room that regularly hosts various art-house events. If the evening is warm enough you can sit outside in peace, drink a few glasses of wine and enjoy the jumping fountains on the newly build plaza. The general section behind the Ritzy is trendy, upmarket but not beyond the reach of those in full-time employment.

You can actually feel the divide and I suggest anyone to go see it for themselves. Have a drink down the Beehive and then take a walk near the Brixton Underground station. Then take a walk southbound down Brixton Road to the Coldharbour Lane junction. Hang about outside the K.F.C for a few minutes and then either drop into the Princess on Coldharbour lane or cross over to the Ritzy.

Compare
 
Mockney said:
On the other hand though, to claim that all, let alone even most, of these rioters are out on the streets because they want to be heard is nonsense..They're out because they think its fun, and they want free shit. And a good amount are attempting to justify it with this political rhetoric as an excuse to detract from it's selfish origins...But the reason they think it's fun, and the reason they're selfish, is certainly because of the perceived bleakness of their situation...
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Their doing it because they have no power and for a day or a night, they've got it. They are in charge and everyone is scared. Of them.

That's why riots happen.
 
Powerful message from the father of one of the youngsters, just hope the youths pay attention and listen to his words and not make this an even bigger mess.
 
Mockney said:
It's a bit of six of one, half a dozen of the other. He's right about the root reason for people rioting, but he's wrong about their motivation for rioting..If that makes sense?

Anyone who lives in London who hasn't been living in a bubble will know this kind of thing has been building for a while. I didn't expect it this soon, or like this, but I thought something would happen eventually. The inequality is rife, and before anyone points out that relatively the underclass here have it much better than most in the world, that isn't the point. Most people only really care about their own sphere of influence or environment when it comes down to unhappiness. You'll rarely be able to shake a movie star out of depression or drug addiction, or bankers from wanting yet another bonus by pointing out there are starving kids in Africa. So it's unlikely to resonate much with kids who have a lot less than those immediately around them.

London has been getting steadily more and more "gentrified" over the last few decades. Areas like Brixton and Notting Hill, Camden, Hoxton & Shoreditch and even Clapham have gone from being relatively dodgy, to relatively harmless, to fashionable and even genuinely up market.. . Stratford being a contemporary case in point, as it's currently undergoing this "improvement" as we speak in time for the Olympics.

But how is it being improved? How was Brixton, or Hoxton? Not by improving the conditions and outlets for the people living there that's for sure, but by building reams of up-market flats and moving in the middle classes. Then building expensive bars, shops and other establishments to cater for this new kind of population..And hey presto, you have a nice area. But what happens to all the people who were in that area? They suddenly can't afford to go to any of these places, and begin to feel alien in their own area...I can't move for new posh flats being built in South London, and I can't really see how it's helping anyone currently IN the area. It's all about moving people who can afford them in...One of the best points he makes is about drug money being kept by the treasury. It should be going back into the community. But that's the last thing the government would think to do with it..

On the other hand though, to claim that all, let alone even most, of these rioters are out on the streets because they want to be heard is nonsense..They're out because they think its fun, and they want free shit. And a good amount are attempting to justify it with this political rhetoric as an excuse to detract from it's selfish origins...But the reason they think it's fun, and the reason they're selfish, is certainly because of the perceived bleakness of their situation...
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But weren't their prospects and situations bleak anyway, prior to the influx of middle class in their areas? These youths will always have been disenfranchised irrespective of having the middle classes living in their areas, and will subsequently have found rioting fun and been selfish anyway. I don't think Urban regeneration schemes of this kind can be blamed.
 
I think these are ideas on how to make things worse in the future.
 
Upinder said if one person has to die for there to be peace in the country, he is here! What a man!
 
Neo_Mufc said:
Are joining with the muslims now.
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Sky needs to be covering these messages. feck showing Boris and show these people who have been affected and suffered a big loss but are still calling for calm and peace.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Their doing it because they have no power and for a day or a night, they've got it. They are in charge and everyone is scared. Of them.
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Indeed. But I don't think that's conscious. They aren't angry or riled by their lack of a voice, and aren't doing it in the name of anything. Certainly I think on a subconscious level they are getting a power trip. But on the surface I think they just think it's fun. Probably the most fun they've ever had.

Biscuit1871 said:
But weren't their prospects and situations bleak anyway, prior to the influx of middle class in their areas? These youths will always have been disenfranchised irrespective of having the middle classes living in their areas, and will subsequently have found rioting fun and been selfish anyway. I don't think Urban regeneration schemes of this kind can be blamed.
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I'm not blaming the middle class at all..Shit, I'm one of them, and every area needs a good dose of middle class about it, but it's a trend that's been hugely one way...And then becomes self perpetuating because if one type of people will pay for something, then you'll make more of it, and if one type wont, well then you tell them to feck off...It's not neccessarrily anyone's fault, but it has lead to a sort of abdication of responsibility. They aren't building places were everyone can go, just the places were some people will pay to go, because places were everybody can go isn't in anyone's profitable interest..

It clearly leads to social marginalisation (is that a word?) which is more of what it's about than simply not having good job prospects. There are plenty of people who are poor or with shit job prospects but don't want to go mental.

You've got kids of 14 using the excuse that there isn't any jobs for them when they wouldn't be getting any jobs anyway. They also aren't really angry about anything. This is more about not having anything worthwhile to do. So they're doing this. It's by no means an excuse, but it's a reason.
 
SteveJ said:
Suitable for a caption contest, this:

tumblr_lppgowbwg41r1qajlo1_1280.png
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Noooo, Luke... I am his father. Hes over there, look!
 
I hear rumours swirling around EDL to use the riots as a cover to fire bomb mosques. That will certainly escalate things.
 
There have been so many rumours over the past few days, as long as people don't react to rumours everything should be ok.
 
Drifter said:
How the feck is taking there benefits away going to help matters.
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How the feck is endlessly providing them with rent money, free healthcare, and money to live on which exceeds that of many of those who working in low income jobs to feed their families going to work? They still want more and will feck anyone over to get it. I think it is possible to separate poverty from basic human morals. The people who have taken part in these riots have not done anything to convince anyone that the benefits system works for them, and perhaps the threat of losing it might repel further instances and protect the people who are really important - the victims of the riots
 
The courts should allow cameras to film proceedings today, to show what lies in wait.
 
Crustanoid said:
How the feck is endlessly providing them with rent money, free healthcare, and money to live on which exceeds that of many of those who working in low income jobs to feed their families going to work? They still want more and will feck anyone over to get it. I think it is possible to separate poverty from basic human morals. The people who have taken part in these riots have not done anything to convince anyone that the benefits system works for them, and perhaps the threat of losing it might repel further instances and protect the people who are really important - the victims of the riots
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They shouldn't take it away, it just shouldn't be cash. It should be in Tesco's no frills food vouchers.
 
Mockney said:
It's a bit of six of one, half a dozen of the other. He's right about the root reason for people rioting, but he's wrong about their motivation for rioting..If that makes sense?

Anyone who lives in London who hasn't been living in a bubble will know this kind of thing has been building for a while. I didn't expect it this soon, or like this, but I thought something would happen eventually. The inequality is rife, and before anyone points out that relatively the underclass here have it much better than most in the world, that isn't the point. Most people only really care about their own sphere of influence or environment when it comes down to unhappiness. You'll rarely be able to shake a movie star out of depression or drug addiction, or bankers from wanting yet another bonus by pointing out there are starving kids in Africa. So it's unlikely to resonate much with kids who have a lot less than those immediately around them.

London has been getting steadily more and more "gentrified" over the last few decades. Areas like Brixton and Notting Hill, Camden, Hoxton & Shoreditch and even Clapham have gone from being relatively dodgy, to relatively harmless, to fashionable and even genuinely up market.. . Stratford being a contemporary case in point, as it's currently undergoing this "improvement" as we speak in time for the Olympics.

But how is it being improved? How was Brixton, or Hoxton? Not by improving the conditions and outlets for the people living there that's for sure, but by building reams of up-market flats and moving in the middle classes. Then building expensive bars, shops and other establishments to cater for this new kind of population..And hey presto, you have a nice area. But what happens to all the people who were in that area? They suddenly can't afford to go to any of these places, and begin to feel alien in their own area...I can't move for new posh flats being built in South London, and I can't really see how it's helping anyone currently IN the area. It's all about moving people who can afford them in...One of the best points he makes is about drug money being kept by the treasury. It should be going back into the community. But that's the last thing the government would think to do with it..

On the other hand though, to claim that all, let alone even most, of these rioters are out on the streets because they want to be heard is nonsense..They're out because they think its fun, and they want free shit. And a good amount are attempting to justify it with this political rhetoric as an excuse to detract from it's selfish origins...But the reason they think it's fun, and the reason they're selfish, is certainly because of the perceived bleakness of their situation...
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I've lived in Lambeth most of my life and I have to say that this is a spot on post. You get (relative) poverty juxtaposed with wealth in the inner cities. You get the poor ghetto-ised into certain areas in social housing estates that often have gang and drugs problems and left to fester in the failing local comphrensives. Kids aren't taught any better by their parents since they are likely a product of the same woes years ago or are absent. You essentially have a breed of people who can't provide for themselves (at least legally...) and have no respect for authority except that established amongst themselves. Which isn't surprising since that someone leaving school at 16 without any qualifications and spending the majority of their life on benefits will be looked down upon by a lot of society and in turn is I think one of the reasons why gangs are rife in such areas as probably the only means for such people to be rich and respected within life.

The desire for respect is why I'd expect lot of rioters were competing and participating to see who could steal and wreck the most and get away with it and be the bad man on the block, along with the obvious desire to get themselves some free shit. Meanwhile the wealthy in the area circumvent the same problems with their expensive homes in the nicer areas and by sending their children to private schools.

I'm going to stop rambling here but in general I'm just pointing out the underlying reasons why you have a group of young hooded "chavs" descending the streets but I doubt that these people are motivated by anything other than stealing stuff and getting away with it.
 
Crustanoid said:
How the feck is endlessly providing them with rent money, free healthcare, and money to live on which exceeds that of many of those who working in low income jobs to feed their families going to work? They still want more and will feck anyone over to get it. I think it is possible to separate poverty from basic human morals. The people who have taken part in these riots have not done anything to convince anyone that the benefits system works for them, and perhaps the threat of losing it might repel further instances and protect the people who are really important - the victims of the riots
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Absolutely, send out the message that benefits require a clean criminal record or proof you have truely repented with lots of good deeds and community work.

Lets see how many kids are prevented from leaving home then. Not to say it is solely kids at all, but there is too much evidence of them being involved.
 
One of the best ways of breaking the cycle of inner city violence and crime is National Service. Removing people from their peer groups is one of the most effective ways of re-educating them. The courts in the US (mainly LA) can reduce sentencing for certain crimes if the defendant agrees to join the military. The repeat offender rate or return to the gang lifestyle is significantly lower for the criminals that take that option over prison.

National service doesn't have to mean being deployable. They could be used for projects in the UK. Probably wouldn't help much with some of the very young kids we are seeing on the streets now but many of the ring leaders are older.
 
Mockney, you have some sound thoughts in your post. It is all too common for new developments in London to be built with luxury price tags, though to be fair the profit margins on anything less are unpredictable.

I don't buy into the idea that there are socio-economic reasons behind this, but I have long believed that our biggest long term issue on a par with benefits is housing, how endemic shortage of supply have seen prices become staggering, a national ratio of 1:8 salary/house price is unsustainable and needs a major correction.
 
Team Brian GB said:
Absolutely, send out the message that benefits require a clean criminal record or proof you have truely repented with lots of good deeds and community work.

Lets see how many kids are prevented from leaving home then. Not to say it is solely kids at all, but there is too much evidence of them being involved.
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It would be nice for that to happen , but we all know that this will never happen.
These people know that they will never have benefits taken off them and will carry on doing what they want.
 
Team Brian GB said:
Absolutely, send out the message that benefits require a clean criminal record or proof you have truely repented with lots of good deeds and community work.

Lets see how many kids are prevented from leaving home then. Not to say it is solely kids at all, but there is too much evidence of them being involved.
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So what do they live on if they've got a criminal record and no job?
 
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