David De Gea vs Wojciech Szczęsny

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Commadus said:
For a gk does an excellent or wonderous save makeup for a mistake?

Lets say a GK makes 5 wonderous saves and 2 gaffes - how would you judge him?
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Well it depends on how excellent the saves were (random aside: as a non-goalkeeper I find it quite challenging to judge just how difficult a certain save actually was and my feeling is that most other non-goalkeepers, whether they admit or not, struggle with the same) and how bad the mistakes were, but just to throw out some numbers, say an excellent save is one that on average goalkeepers make only 5% of the time and a mistake is making a mistake in a situation where 95% of goalkeepers would not. In this situation an excellent save would be worth +0.95 goals while a mistake would be worth -0.95 goals. While I chose the numbers specifically so they would be even, intuitively I feel the value of a mistake would in most cases be roughly equal to the negative of the value of an excellent save, assuming we are limiting the discussion to mistakes during saves i.e. mistakes which lead directly to goals. For other types of mistakes, like flapping at a cross or making a poor pass which leads to an opposition attack, the value of the mistake is never as severe as the -1 goals that people usually give it, but that's another matter.

So in your example, unless the mistakes came at extremely high leverage times during the match (a contrived example: say you are 1-0 up in the 89th minute when your goalkeeper makes two mistakes in two minutes to make it 1-2, and then makes 5 excellent saves in the 91-95th minutes), a goalkeeper who makes five truly excellent saves and two mistakes is still up several goals in my book.

In general I think goalkeepers hardly ever get enough credit for making even routine saves.
 
SteveJ said:
I dunno, I thought the ball hit his arm rather than it being a great save; he only reacted to the ball once it had already made contact:

Video Szczesny Save vs Spurs Terrific save from Szczesny to deny Adebayor. Tottenham 2-1 Arsenal-Soccer Full Highlights and Goals

Remember how De Gea made a superb save recently, yet journalists claimed that it merely 'hit his arm'? Pfft.
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That video confirms what I thought earlier on. He was going down to his left before the ball was struck. Credit where it's due for either getting a 50:50 gamble right or reading Adebayor's intentions.

Adebayor made it very obvious which side he was placing the ball though. If he'd given him the eyes or lifted the ball Cheesney would have been screwed. Definitely a good save but nothing particularly amazing.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That video confirms what I thought earlier on. He was going down to his left before the ball was struck. Credit where it's due for either getting a 50:50 gamble right or reading Adebayor's intentions.

Adebayor made it very obvious which side he was placing the ball though. If he'd given him the eyes or lifted the ball Cheesney would have been screwed. Definitely a good save but nothing particularly amazing.
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Sczeny read Ade intentions and made a good save. Contrast that to Lindegard who stood up tall and forced the striker to make a decision.

Also I would say De gea save with his foot against Basle was better than Sceny because the striker was nearer the goals.
 
Szczesny will make mistakes, of that there is no doubt. Yesterday's was a minor one in the sense that I reckon a lot of keepers would have let that in.

He's a young kid, and despite his arrogance, that's what he shall be for a while yet. I like De Gea, and rate him as an outstanding talent, so I think we should probably both just accept that we've got great keepers and stop this 'X is better than Y' argument.
 
alastair said:
Szczesny will make mistakes, of that there is no doubt. Yesterday's was a minor one in the sense that I reckon a lot of keepers would have let that in.

He's a young kid, and despite his arrogance, that's what he shall be for a while yet. I like De Gea, and rate him as an outstanding talent, so I think we should probably both just accept that we've got great keepers and stop this 'X is better than Y' argument.
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Damn right.
 
alastair said:
Szczesny will make mistakes, of that there is no doubt. Yesterday's was a minor one in the sense that I reckon a lot of keepers would have let that in.

He's a young kid, and despite his arrogance, that's what he shall be for a while yet. I like De Gea, and rate him as an outstanding talent, so I think we should probably both just accept that we've got great keepers and stop this 'X is better than Y' argument.
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Amen to that.
 
Szcesny, like Hart, is a very good young keeper. He made a mistake yesterday just like Hart has made them and DDG has made them. All young keepers do, thats not a problem just some perspective.

But both Hart and Szczesny need to improve their kicking because unlike with DDG its currently a weak area.
 
letranger0 said:
Well it depends on how excellent the saves were (random aside: as a non-goalkeeper I find it quite challenging to judge just how difficult a certain save actually was and my feeling is that most other non-goalkeepers, whether they admit or not, struggle with the same) and how bad the mistakes were, but just to throw out some numbers, say an excellent save is one that on average goalkeepers make only 5% of the time and a mistake is making a mistake in a situation where 95% of goalkeepers would not. In this situation an excellent save would be worth +0.95 goals while a mistake would be worth -0.95 goals. While I chose the numbers specifically so they would be even, intuitively I feel the value of a mistake would in most cases be roughly equal to the negative of the value of an excellent save, assuming we are limiting the discussion to mistakes during saves i.e. mistakes which lead directly to goals. For other types of mistakes, like flapping at a cross or making a poor pass which leads to an opposition attack, the value of the mistake is never as severe as the -1 goals that people usually give it, but that's another matter.

So in your example, unless the mistakes came at extremely high leverage times during the match (a contrived example: say you are 1-0 up in the 89th minute when your goalkeeper makes two mistakes in two minutes to make it 1-2, and then makes 5 excellent saves in the 91-95th minutes), a goalkeeper who makes five truly excellent saves and two mistakes is still up several goals in my book.

In general I think goalkeepers hardly ever get enough credit for making even routine saves.
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Very much so.
 
Makki said:
Problem? Oh, you think he's at fault for the Stoke goal? Right.
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Eh?

Not at all.

I just look at the Walker strike and think it's incredibly harsh to label it a mistake. It's a common theme in football discourse these days, where everything has to be an extreme (i.e. a winning contribution or a game losing mistake) and a blame culture pervades.

If you look at the trajectory of the ball, it moved like Hernandez in the penalty box; one way and then the other. It's an absolute bastard for goalies to deal with. I kinda agreed with Alan Smith's post match analysis when he said that it's wrong that you can hit a ball firm and true and yet the outcome is for the ball to deviate in an extreme fashion.

At most, the keeper will be disappointed with it. To blame the lost points on it is a bit absurd though, given that his performance in the game kept the score down.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It was a goal-keeping error which led to a goal. A goal which led to Arsenal losing the game. Hardly contriversial to claim his error led to Arsenal dropping points. Well, a point.
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I've never kept goal and I don't really know the technicalities of the profession, but it's my personal opinion that the Walker goal isn't a keeper error. Just my view, but I think there's mitigation in the fact that it dipped and swerved so much at the last moment. He's effectively set himself to make one save and then the deviation of the ball means that another type of save was required.

I dunno, maybe my standards aren't exacting enough, but I'd be saying the same thing if De Gea had let it in.
 
Out of interest, what was the error that Chesney made? I mean, I look at it and think that he's beaten by the sudden deviation - I don't see how it can be an error when the ball spontaneously does something.
 
Feed Me said:
Out of interest, what was the error that Chesney made? I mean, I look at it and think that he's beaten by the sudden deviation - I don't see how it can be an error when the ball spontaneously does something.
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He had more than enough time to take a step to the side and get his body behind the ball more. That way if it slips through his hands he's there to block it with his body.
 
Feed Me said:
Out of interest, what was the error that Chesney made? I mean, I look at it and think that he's beaten by the sudden deviation - I don't see how it can be an error when the ball spontaneously does something.
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He's a professional goalkeeper. He's supposed to have the reactions to adjust in situations like that. I mean, look at cricketers. They deal with a tiny ball - fecked at them from just 22 yards away - which often deviates totally unpredictably, in the air AND off the ground. They can's say "sorry lads, not my fault, the damn thing swerved!"
 
Ekeke said:
Szcesny, like Hart, is a very good young keeper. He made a mistake yesterday just like Hart has made them and DDG has made them. All young keepers do, thats not a problem just some perspective.

But both Hart and Szczesny need to improve their kicking because unlike with DDG its currently a weak area.
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Personally I don't think Hart is anywhere near the same standard as De Gea or Szczęsny
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It was a goal-keeping error which led to a goal. A goal which led to Arsenal losing the game. Hardly contriversial to claim his error led to Arsenal dropping points. Well, a point.
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He also made 2 saves that kept Arse in the game - Defoe and Adebayor. Yes, he made a mistake, but if it weren't for him Arse could've conceded 5 or 6... It's hardly fair to say he cost them a point.
 
Enigma_87 said:
He also made 2 saves that kept Arse in the game - Defoe and Adebayor. Yes, he made a mistake, but if it weren't for him Arse could've conceded 5 or 6... It's hardly fair to say he cost them a point.
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That's the life of a goalkeeper though.
 
Enigma_87 said:
He also made 2 saves that kept Arse in the game - Defoe and Adebayor. Yes, he made a mistake, but if it weren't for him Arse could've conceded 5 or 6... It's hardly fair to say he cost them a point.
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That's very true, but if it were me I'd still think I'd cost my team a point.
 
Commadus said:
For a gk does an excellent or wonderous save makeup for a mistake?

Lets say a GK makes 5 wonderous saves and 2 gaffes - how would you judge him?
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How did people judge De Gea after his mistake against West Brom? He made a brilliant save on a one-on-one where he didn't commit, stood up for as long as he could and got an arm up when the player shot high, but nobody remembers that because he made a mistake (that didn't even cost us a point!) later on.
 
R_Nick said:
That's the life of a goalkeeper though.
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yep. It's ungrateful isn't it. Even if he keeps a clean sheet and makes some magnificent saves and then the forward scores a brace for 2-0, guess who'll win the show. Yeah he made a mistake, but he kept them in the game throughout the match. I wouldn't say he cost them the point as much as he saved the blushes after yet another shambolic defensive performance...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's a professional goalkeeper. He's supposed to have the reactions to adjust in situations like that. I mean, look at cricketers. They deal with a tiny ball - fecked at them from just 22 yards away - which often deviates totally unpredictably, in the air AND off the ground. They can's say "sorry lads, not my fault, the damn thing swerved!"
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I take all of that on board. I just reckon it moved a hell of a lot at the last moment. I still reckon it's harsh to put it down as a mistake. Other than being deceived by the swerve of the ball, I'm not sure what 'error' he made.
 
Feed Me said:
I take all of that on board. I just reckon it moved a hell of a lot at the last moment. I still reckon it's harsh to put it down as a mistake. Other than being deceived by the swerve of the ball, I'm not sure what 'error' he made.
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How many 'errors' do you want?

The ball swerved. He didn't adjust in time. He fecked up. His own reaction and the reaction of Walker showed they both knew he dropped a bollock.

It's not like he did a Taibi but it's a shot he'll be very disappointed not to keep out.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How many 'errors' do you want?

The ball swerved. He didn't adjust in time. He fecked up. His own reaction and the reaction of Walker showed they both knew he dropped a bollock.

It's not like he did a Taibi but it's a shot he'll be very disappointed not to keep out.
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I suspect we're having a disagreement over semantics here. It's not a howler and I think it's harsh to call it an error. Meh, whatever. Chesney is a top goalie.
 
Szczesny said:
The second one I am very disappointed because I shouldn’t get beaten from that type of distance so the second one I will blame myself.

“There was a lot of movement on the ball and I reacted too late. I got a touch to it but it wasn’t strong enough to keep out.
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...
 
Feed Me said:
I suspect we're having a disagreement over semantics here. It's not a howler and I think it's harsh to call it an error. Meh, whatever. Chesney is a top goalie.
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It certainly was an error.

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I dont think anybody's suggested it wasnt a mistake on his part, it most certainly was. it wasnt a howler though imo. thats something i reserve for the real stinkers.
 
Varun_Utd said:
I dont think anybody's suggested it wasnt a mistake on his part, it most certainly was. it wasnt a howler though imo. thats something i reserve for the real stinkers.
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Feed Me said:
Out of interest, what was the error that Chesney made? I mean, I look at it and think that he's beaten by the sudden deviation - I don't see how it can be an error when the ball spontaneously does something.
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