Evra accuses Suarez of racist remarks | Suarez guilty of racial abuse

Will this allegation be dealt by the FA? That is the big question.
 
dmode said:
Will this allegation be dealt by the FA? That is the big question.
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Of course not. Its pretty much Evra words VS Saurez. So unless there is clear video evidence then nothing will be done.

Even if there is video evidence, that may not be enough, remember when Busquets got off scot free despite numerous cameras, with confirmation of lip reading specialistists caught him calling Marcello a monkey?
 
Lance Uppercut said:
If there is any concrete evidence I will take that bet. If not, what can you expect?
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Well, we're going to struggle to define concrete evidence here so the bet's not going to work, but I agree with the second part.

Basically, there's a good chance that there won't be enough evidence to justify any action, but even if there is, I don't think anything will happen.
 
kietotheworld said:
Racism is a belief that one race is superior or inferior to another, you don't need to hold that belief to use a racial slur.
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How can you use race as a 'slur' if you don't believe one race to be superior to another?
 
Eyepopper said:
How can you use race as a 'slur' if you don't believe one race to be superior to another?
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Because you know how effective the words can be and the reaction they can bring out.
 
Wowi said:
Of course it's a good reason, but the way people have been saying it (on here, on twitter etc.) makes it sound like Evra's allegations were actually dismissed because of evidence supporting the Chelsea groundsman. Fact is that Evra, Phelan and Richard Hartis (goalkeeping coach) all said they heard the groundsman calling Evra "fecking immigrant". The FA however decided they were all lying because of technicalities.
Phelan wrote two statements five months apart, and in the second statement he wrote that the comment came at a different time than he reported in the first. Given the stuff that was going on at the time it's hardly surprising that he didn't remember it exactly in the order it all happened five months after the incident, but apparently The FA thought otherwise.

The United staff members could've chosen to say they haven't heard it, or simply not back him up, couldn't they? It isn't a question of saying either "Evra's lying" or "Evra's telling the truth". I highly doubt that some very respected staff members of the club would support Evra's claim if they weren't 100% sure they've heard it themselves.


Anyway, glad you accepted that it's only a matter of one previous case really. Does Evra's history matter then? As already pointed out studies have shown that racism is still a very big problem, but that almost no-one wants to report it. Seeing this case, do you really wonder why?

It's almost impossible to prove, as you'll have to rely on lip-reading (and an extraordinary good camera angle to give you a perfect view of it) and even that's up for discussion. Just look at the case from La Liga back in may where Busquets were caught on camera saying "mono" but escaped without punishment, even though he tried to cover his mouth to hide it. It's almost impossible to win for the player reporting racist abuse, and everyone will say he lied if it isn't proven. Just look at how people (yourself included) refer to Evra's so-called "history of resorting to playing the race-card" in this case.

I understand that it's incredibly hard to judge cases like this. The player being accused is of course innocent until proven guilty, and being accused of being a racist is no minor thing so the evidence should be very strong if the accused was to be convicted. However, as mentioned above, it's near impossible to prove, unless the accused is actually stupid enough to yell it out so other players hear it or a microphone picks it up.

What can be changed though is the attitude towards players accusing others of racist remarks. The stick that Evra is getting from opposition fans (and journos) is simply insane. You'd think that Evra accuses other players of racist abuse weekly when you read some of the shit people are saying about his "history".
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Very well put. I agree with this 100%.
 
Pexbo said:
Because you know how effective the words can be and the reaction they can bring out.
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So you're choosing to highlight someone's race as a negative to illicit a response, therefore you are racist.

This is fecking tedious.
 
If your are willing to use racist slurs to hurt another person or gain an advantage over that person, then you don't deem their feelings worthy of consideration and you don't consider racist slurs as something to avoid especially, which suggests that you don't care about the feelings of a person of a different race... all of which pretty much defines a racist! How can anyone be arguing otherwise?
 
I think there is some confusion between racism and racial discrimination TBH.
 
If you use words such as those being discussed here In a derogatory sense or to provoke a reaction then it is a racist act but doesn't make you a racist.

Being a racist is about what you believe, not what you say.
 
Jesus, its getting better, racial discrimination is racist by definition, thats why its called racial discrimination.

Discrimination on the basis of race.
 
I think it is possible to racially abuse someone without actually being a racist. It could be just a case of choosing words you know will get a reaction. Whether or not you hold any racist views. It makes you a complete asshole though, so the difference is fairly moot.
 
friendlytramp said:
If you use words such as those being discussed here In a derogatory sense or to provoke a reaction then it is a racist act but doesn't make you a racist.

Being a racist is about what you believe, not what you say.
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If you deem committing racist acts as acceptable, you're most likely racist... even if you aren't bright enough to realise it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I actually think it is possible to racially abuse someone without actually being a racist. It could be just a case of choosing words you know will get a reaction. Whether or not you hold any racist views. It makes you a complete asshole though, so the difference is fairly moot.
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I agree. Using racist language would usually suggest that the user holds racist beliefs to some extent or another, but to outright say that the use of racist language, even in a derogatory manner, always makes the user racist in all circumstances seems to me to be devoid of reason. It's quite easy to think of a circumstance whereby someone might use offensive racist language, despite not holding racist beliefs.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
:lol:

You are a moron. No offence.
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Boss said:
Christ.
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Sir A1ex said:
:lol::wenger::lol:

Oh you!
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Sir A1ex said:
As I said...
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Great responses there, well done lads.
Eyepopper said:
How can you use race as a 'slur' if you don't believe one race to be superior to another?
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Because you think it will get a reaction. The same way you might call someone a lanky cnut, shortarse, poof, baldy etc. without believing tall/short/gay/bald people are inferior. There's a big difference between using a racial insult and actually being a racist, even if it is an unpleasant and class thing to do.
gooDevil said:
Harassing people with racist slurs or language is also racism. Surely. If not in the dictionary, certainly in court.
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You'll never see anyone convicted of being a racist, there might be charges relating to racist abuse, but being a racist isn't a crime in itself.
 
So, someone who engages in racial abuse, but otherwise gives no thought to race might be referred to as a 'casual racist' rather, more so than a card carrying Neo Nazi....

We're debating degrees here, well thats the internet for you I suppose.
 
Eyepopper said:
So, someone who engages in racial abuse, but otherwise gives no thought to race might be referred to as a 'casual racist' rather, more so than a card carrying Neo Nazi....

We're debating degrees here, well thats the internet for you I suppose.
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:lol: well there is a new one...makes it sound like a hobby.
 
kietotheworld said:
Great responses there, well done lads.

Because you think it will get a reaction. The same way you might call someone a lanky cnut, shortarse, poof, baldy etc. without believing tall/short/gay/bald people are inferior. There's a big difference between using a racial insult and actually being a racist, even if it is an unpleasant and class thing to do.
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Yep. You could have selected any of those. And more besides. But no. You went with race. Because you're a feckin' racist.
 
To state the obvious these are really serious allegations. Lets forget the players involved and be blinded by the rivalry between our clubs, or hatred towards certain players. I reckon these allegations will prove nothing either way - If, however, it proves Suarez racially abused Evra, or Evra lied, there should be some serious punishment.
 
rednev said:
I agree. Using racist language would usually suggest that the user holds racist beliefs to some extent or another, but to outright say that the use of racist language, even in a derogatory manner, always makes the user racist in all circumstances seems to me to be devoid of reason. It's quite easy to think of a circumstance whereby someone might use offensive racist language, despite not holding racist beliefs.
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Yeah, it's all about context. In this instance, you could imagine Suarez using words he thinks will be most likely to get a rise out of Evra. Does this make him a racist, in and of itself? No. Does it make him a cnut? Definitely.
 
Sultan said:
If, however, it proves Suarez racially abused Evra, or Evra lied, there should be some serious punishment.
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What do you reckon the punishment should be? Let's say there is a video with clear audio. Is it worse than spitting on someone? Punching someone?
 
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