Paul Pogba

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apotheosis said:
Pogue you know i don't know the salaries anymore than you do, but what difference does it make? We are all debating the issue without knowing all the details anyway.

Answer this question for me instead of your usual nitpicking. If we were buying Pogba tomorrow from another club how much would he cost in today's market? You know fine well it will cost us a lot more to replace him than it will to keep him and probably with someone not as talented.

All the established stars and now potential ones are costing more than ever before. It won't be long before all of the most promising talents are asking for such wages. We are already unwilling to pay £40m plus 150k -200k for a Modric or a Sneijder, if we are also unwilling to pay the going rate for potential stars, where exactly does that leave us?
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It leaves us as a club that handles each situation according to its merits. Its quite simple really, and it doesn't have to define where United are at these days.

Signing Sneijder would have resulted in a massive outlay (prob around £70-80m over four years). Was he worth the risk? Seemingly not.

The Pogba situation is different but again why do we want a player at that level dictating to the club? Who is to say that his agent wouldn't be pushing for a bigger contract this time next year, or his player will strike. We just don't need that kind of thing here.

Its always worth remembering how big a factor the character of our players is at this club, when we are challenging for titles year after year. There is always talent available in this big, wide world. United look for the right kind of talent.
 
apotheosis said:
Why? Did Rooney's wage set a precedent for our other players?
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Of course it did. Do you really think the agents of our other players won't look at Rooney's wage when they're negotiating a new contract? Don't be so naive. Nani's rumoured to be asking for 160k.

apotheosis said:
If Pogba is so special he should be given what he wants.
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You're a fecking idiot (and that's not just judging by that single line by the way). Do you honestly for a single second believe that would be beneficial for the club?


Judging by some of the posters in this thread you'd think that half of the caf holds a PhD in football club management and another one in contract negotiations. We're about to lose one player due to the club's policy - a player who'd probably feck off anyway in a few years, unless he finds a new agent - and people blame United for doing things the wrong way. fecking hell.
 
Will Absolute said:
To clarify, lets look at some (imaginary) figures. For the sake of argument, lets say we were prepared to offer Pogba £25g/week and he wanted £50g/week. 1.25M /year more. Should we have been prepared to accept?

Well, if we really believed that he would prove good enough to play for us, a modest valuation would be £16M. Spread over a 4 year contract that's £4M/year. In other words, we would still be getting a huge bargain.
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That's a far too simplistic way of looking at it. As have been said several times in this thread Fryers is offered just a fifth of what Pogba was supposedly offered by United. Do you honestly think Fryers (or any other youngster who's about to get a new contract in the next few years) won't point at Pogba getting 50k and say "I want something closer to that"? Do you honestly think none of the first team players will point at it and say they want more than that? Giving one player a big contract might not mean much on its own, but you have to realise that every other player at the club will look at it and suddenly you've got 30 players asking for 10k or 20k more than they otherwise would have.
 
Italy doesn't have a great record at blooding young central midfielders from abroad, only few gems here and there, inter thought Viera was crap until he went to arsenal, i hope we have some sort of buy back clause, that when he realises he made a mistake he can come and say sorry,talent only gets you so far, look where obi wan is today, he was supposed to be the next best thing and now he's just above average at chelasea.
 
Bilbo said:
It leaves us as a club that handles each situation according to its merits. Its quite simple really, and it doesn't have to define where United are at these days.

Signing Sneijder would have resulted in a massive outlay (prob around £70-80m over four years). Was he worth the risk? Seemingly not.

The Pogba situation is different but again why do we want a player at that level dictating to the club? Who is to say that his agent wouldn't be pushing for a bigger contract this time next year, or his player will strike. We just don't need that kind of thing here.

Its always worth remembering how big a factor the character of our players is at this club, when we are challenging for titles year after year. There is always talent available in this big, wide world. United look for the right kind of talent.
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I agree with you. My point was that since we are scouring the planet for special talents, why when we have one already are we letting him leave?

We all know what will happen in the summer, we will not be able to sign anyone for the same reasons we couldn't last year. They are simply not available at prices we are willing to pay. We won't buy established stars so our market is promising youngsters, if we are unwilling to pay their wages too, what market is left for us to operate in.

Pogue is right we shouldn't have to be forced to pay these types of wages, i have never disagreed on that. But we will only have to go out and try to buy someone else in the summer on just as much money and probably with less talent.

So again my question is if Pogba is the special talent we believe him to be, is he not worth the money? It is a general point. I he is not then why all the fuss? What type of wages would a young Ronaldo be demanding in today's market compared to when we signed him? What of Goetze or Erikson? Would they come here on 20k a week? I doubt it personally.

The prices are going up and up, somewhere along the line a decision has to be made or we will end up like Arsenal. If the club adopts it's current stance then i will trust that SAF does not deem Pogba worth the money, but i have my doubts whether the 'right type of talent' will become available at the prices we are willing to pay any time soon.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Why, then, would Pogba pick juve? Is it because the agent fees comedy out of his own pocket if he picks united?
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This is what I'm thinking, we didn't want to deal with Raiola but I reckon he has legal obligation to now.
 
gulli_G said:
Italy doesn't have a great record at blooding young central midfielders from abroad, only few gems here and there, inter thought Viera was crap until he went to arsenal, i hope we have some sort of buy back clause, that when he realises he made a mistake he can come and say sorry,talent only gets you so far, look where obi wan is today, he was supposed to be the next best thing and now he's just above average at chelasea.
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How would we do that when he's out of contract?
 
Bilbo said:
It makes it easier to believe that Pogba is a puppet to this agent, doesn't it?
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I'm sure he's not, I'm sure they've collluded together very well. The only reason I raised it was the fact that everyone kept saying he was going for better wages which he isn't.
 
Wowi said:
Of course it did. Do you really think the agents of our other players won't look at Rooney's wage when they're negotiating a new contract? Don't be so naive. Nani's rumoured to be asking for 160k.



You're a fecking idiot (and that's not just judging by that single line by the way). Do you honestly for a single second believe that would be beneficial for the club?


Judging by some of the posters in this thread you'd think that half of the caf holds a PhD in football club management and another one in contract negotiations. We're about to lose one player due to the club's policy - a player who'd probably feck off anyway in a few years, unless he finds a new agent - and people blame United for doing things the wrong way. fecking hell.
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I haven't blamed the club for anything. If you haven't judged it on that line alone, then you are the idiot because you will know i only asked the question, whether it would make sense to let him go and then have to sign somebody else not as talented for the same money.

I simply asked the question whether a top top talent should not be given special dispensation. We are going to have to go looking for midfielders in the summer, do you really think we are going to get anyone exceptional on the cheap? We couldn't last year. What makes you think this summer will be any different?
 
I think the point that a lot of people are missing here is that it isn't Pogba the player leaving that upsets a lot of us. It's what he stands for.

10 years ago if some reserve player left we'd say f*ck it, it would barely even register because we could go get a Veron, or a Carrick, or a Hargreaves and know that our squad would improve.

But for the past 5 years when we've clearly and desperately needed some new blood in midfield, all we hear from Fergie is that we need 'value' and lots of harping on about trusting the 'young players to come through'. Well okay, we've now watched 4 first team midfielders leave/retire (okay 1 came back) and heard Fergie all season saying how Pogba is one of the reasons and it's all okay.

Well, here we are. We've just freed up more than Pogba wants by releasing Gibson, and I have to imagine Kuszcak is also on more than he's demanding. In the greater scheme of United, giving him £500k a year more is hardly a lot of money. (as ridiculous as that is, but it’s football).

For all of our resilience in the league, the past 18 months have clearly shown me that Glazernomics are finally taking over. Our performances (not necessarily results) have sharply declined as a whole. 3 years ago we were one of the best teams in the world, playing some of the best football. Since then we’ve gone backwards in almost every position. Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney/Carrick/Hargreaves/Scholes (at 33)/Brown/Vida/Rio/Evra/VDS.

So the hope that a lot of us have clung onto is okay, we won’t be the best team in the world anymore (despite being the most profitable) – that’s fine we’ve been spoilt. But at least to counter City’s finances and the Barca/Real duopoly we’ll be the place for young talent. We’ll bring the next Ronaldos through. We’ll build a core of talented, class young players playing the United way and playing with us for years. And Pogba and Morrison were the first signs of that hope.
 
Wowi said:
That's a far too simplistic way of looking at it. As have been said several times in this thread Fryers is offered just a fifth of what Pogba was supposedly offered by United. Do you honestly think Fryers (or any other youngster who's about to get a new contract in the next few years) won't point at Pogba getting 50k and say "I want something closer to that"? Do you honestly think none of the first team players will point at it and say they want more than that? Giving one player a big contract might not mean much on its own, but you have to realise that every other player at the club will look at it and suddenly you've got 30 players asking for 10k or 20k more than they otherwise would have.
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Well, Fryers might equally well point at Pogbas £20k and say 'I want something closer to that'. Why doesn't he? Because he knows he's not as good.

The principle of being prepared to offer youth players their economic value takes care of that. If Fryers insists on £20k, and we think he's worth it, then we give it to him. Otherwise, he looks for employment elsewhere.

I'm not denying there would be a slight inflationary effect. But, lets face it, most of our Academy products will move on anyway. We want to keep to only a select few in any generation. And my point is, if we have a special player, then we shouldn't be hidebound by ideas of what an untested reserve player should be worth in negotiating his contract.

Pogue and others may be perfectly right, of course. We may have made a hard-headed decision that Pogba wanted more than he was worth.
 
apotheosis said:
I simply asked the question whether a top top talent should not be given special dispensation. We are going to have to go looking for midfielders in the summer, do you really think we are going to get anyone exceptional on the cheap? We couldn't last year. What makes you think this summer will be any different?
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He already is given special dispensation! Do you think we pay all our youth players 20-25k as we're rumoured to have offered Pogba? It doesn't seem to be about wages anyway. Seems like it's down to United not wanting to pay some cnut in a suit some million pounds and if that's the case United should be commended.

I don't think anyone will get an exceptional midfielder on the cheap in this market, and as I've never said anything remotely close to that I'm not sure why you're asking me to be honest.
 
apotheosis said:
I agree with you. My point was that since we are scouring the planet for special talents, why when we have one already are we letting him leave?

We all know what will happen in the summer, we will not be able to sign anyone for the same reasons we couldn't last year. They are simply not available at prices we are willing to pay. We won't buy established stars so our market is promising youngsters, if we are unwilling to pay their wages too, what market is left for us to operate in.

Pogue is right we shouldn't have to be forced to pay these types of wages, i have never disagreed on that. But we will only have to go out and try to buy someone else in the summer on just as much money and probably with less talent.

So again my question is if Pogba is the special talent we believe him to be, is he not worth the money? It is a general point. I he is not then why all the fuss? What type of wages would a young Ronaldo be demanding in today's market compared to when we signed him? What of Goetze or Erikson? Would they come here on 20k a week? I doubt it personally.

The prices are going up and up, somewhere along the line a decision has to be made or we will end up like Arsenal. If the club adopts it's current stance then i will trust that SAF does not deem Pogba worth the money, but i have my doubts whether the 'right type of talent' will become available at the prices we are willing to pay any time soon.
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There are plenty of players available at prices we are willing to pay. Witness last summers transfer activity for proof. The difference with Sneijder is that he was right at the top end of the market, and perhaps we aren't players in that market at the moment, but we don't need to be really.
 
Will Absolute said:
Well, Fryers might equally well point at Pogbas £20k and say 'I want something closer to that'. Why doesn't he? Because he knows he's not as good.
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He did, according to rumours. But United told him it wasn't happening and he probably values being at United higher than playing somewhere else and possibly earning a bit more. Had the gap been bigger I'm not sure he'd be as easily convinced.

Will Absolute said:
The principle of being prepared to offer youth players their economic value takes care of that. If Fryers insists on £20k, and we think he's worth it, then we give it to him. Otherwise, he looks for employment elsewhere.
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I'm pretty sure United are offering young players exactly what they believe they're worth, so I'm not sure I get your point.

Will Absolute said:
I'm not denying there would be a slight inflationary effect. But, lets face it, most of our Academy products will move on anyway. Only a select few in any generation will we really want to hold on to.
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Not sure I get what you mean. You're fine with us paying young players more than we otherwise would just because they're probably not going to make it here anyway?

My point was that your calculation that show that giving Pogba more money would be worth it if the alternative is signing a player for £15-20m is fairly pointless, if you don't include the wage rise other players will get as a result of Pogba's wage.
 
Wowi said:
He already is given special dispensation! Do you think we pay all our youth players 20-25k as we're rumoured to have offered Pogba? It doesn't seem to be about wages anyway. Seems like it's down to United not wanting to pay some cnut in a suit some million pounds and if that's the case United should be commended.

I don't think anyone will get an exceptional midfielder on the cheap in this market, and as I've never said anything remotely close to that I'm not sure why you're asking me to be honest.
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Because that is our challenge mate it's the same question i have been asking all along, and a relevant one when 2 of our brightest midfield talents have left. We have no cover for Carrick, fletcher out indefinitely, Scholes and Giggs on their last legs and Cleverley and Anderson injury prone.

We need top quality and we seem unwilling to pay for it. That is my concern and why i asked the question, we have top quality potential in Pogba, is it beneficial to let him leave and then try to replace him?
 
apotheosis said:
Answer this question for me instead of your usual nitpicking. If we were buying Pogba tomorrow from another club how much would he cost in today's market? You know fine well it will cost us a lot more to replace him than it will to keep him and probably with someone not as talented.
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Around £3m.
 
apotheosis said:
Because that is our challenge mate it's the same question i have been asking all along, and a relevant one when 2 of our brightest midfield talents have left. We have no cover for Carrick, fletcher out indefinitely, Scholes and Giggs on their last legs and Cleverley and Anderson injury prone.

We need top quality and we seem unwilling to pay for it. That is my concern and why i asked the question, we have top quality potential in Pogba, is it beneficial to let him leave and then try to replace him?
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We won't have to replace him.
 
The funny thing is if Pogba is from another team, we might have give him the 20k he wanted for his potential.
 
RedRonaldo said:
The funny thing is if Pogba is from another team, we might have give him the 20k he wanted for his potential.
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We wouldn't. The idea of us being against the idea simply because he's been with us has no foundation whatsoever. When we signed the likes of Rossi and Pique in their teenage years we didn't give them big deals.

Besides, we've apparently offered him as much as Juventus, we simply didn't want to reward his agent.
 
Sarni said:
We wouldn't. The idea of us being against the idea simply because he's been with us has no foundation whatsoever. When we signed the likes of Rossi and Pique in their teenage years we didn't give them big deals.

Besides, we've apparently offered him as much as Juventus, we simply didn't want to reward his agent.
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Well we would if we rated his potential. Afterall we did pay 7m for Bebe, who is relatively unknown and without any notable experience.
 
gambit28 said:
This is what I'm thinking, we didn't want to deal with Raiola but I reckon he has legal obligation to now.
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Well either way he's a daft kid if these are his priorities when he has such a bright future ahead of him. But I don't see any other reason for picking Juve ahead of United other than money whether for "Team Pogba" or just Pogba himself.
 
So we didn't sign anyone in the summer because we were going to give Pogba and Morrison a chance. So umm, now what?
 
In my opinion if Sir Alex really thought that Pogba was as good as he's being touted, he would pay the money required to sign up Pogba, albeit begrudgingly.

In the last few years, he's broken his own transfer edicts, and shelved his beliefs on occasion, to sign players he's felt were worth it. He happily paid double what he should have for Berbatov, a player he was a huge admirer of, but a player who was at an age that usually puts United off from buying.

Also, if any other member of our current squad had pulled the same stunt, Rooney did last year, they'd be gone. What Rooney did infuriated Sir Alex, probably still does, but at the same time he realized Rooney was irreplaceble to this team, and made sure we signed him.
 
Wowi said:
I'm pretty sure United are offering young players exactly what they believe they're worth, so I'm not sure I get your point.

I'm questioning whether that is actually true. I suspect that the old paternalistic approach still lingers on, where the 'kids' are expected to be grateful for any crumbs that fall from the rich club's table.

Not sure I get what you mean. You're fine with us paying young players more than we otherwise would just because they're probably not going to make it here anyway?

No. Most young players are in no position to try to extort more money from the club. They are where they want to be, know they're lucky to be here, and are desperate to stay. They need us more than we need them.

My point was that your calculation that show that giving Pogba more money would be worth it if the alternative is signing a player for £15-20m is fairly pointless, if you don't include the wage rise other players will get as a result of Pogba's wage.

As far as young players go, any wage increase would be limited to the very few kids that we thought were likely to make it. As I said above, the rest are not in a strong bargaining position.
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I'm making a case here based on speculation. So I may be completely wrong. One thing is clear though - we should not be losing our best young players.
 
Wowi said:
Of course it did. Do you really think the agents of our other players won't look at Rooney's wage when they're negotiating a new contract? Don't be so naive. Nani's rumoured to be asking for 160k.
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Exactly.
 
Sarni said:
We wouldn't. The idea of us being against the idea simply because he's been with us has no foundation whatsoever. When we signed the likes of Rossi and Pique in their teenage years we didn't give them big deals.

Besides, we've apparently offered him as much as Juventus, we simply didn't want to reward his agent.
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..which is the fecked up part.. Because as far as I know, it's the player and not the agent who puts his name on the contract..
 
Makki said:
..which is the fecked up part.. Because as far as I know, it's the player and not the agent who puts his name on the contract..
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I don't know why they even exist in football. Footballers could seek legal advice among regular lawyers and they should be able to negotiate their own deal, they can't be that dumb. You don't see a bus driver or a dentist walking around with an agent.
 
For what it's worth, I think a deal could have been agreed had Pogba himself insisted that he wanted to stay. For whatever reason he had doubts about staying. Perhaps that is due to what has been said to him by coaches/Fergie or perhaps Juve have bent over backwards to make him feel like he is more important to them.
 
Will Absolute said:
I'm making a case here based on speculation. So I may be completely wrong. One thing is clear though - we should not be losing our best young players
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No one on here knows the facts, so we're all just speculating. Of course we shouldn't lose big talents, but what can you do if the agent is a massive twat and the player for some reason decides to stick with him? Say we give the agent the few million pounds he's rumoured to be getting from Juve - what will happen if Pogba does break through and becomes an important player for us? We'd basically have a Rooney-situation every single time we negotiate with him and as a result the whole squad would most likely ask for higher wages (as per my previous argument).

Will Absolute said:
As far as young players go, any wage increase would be limited to the very few kids that we thought were likely to make it. As I said above, the rest are not in a strong bargaining position.
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It wouldn't though and as I said it wouldn't just be limited to young players. First of all; paying Pogba 50k as some people has suggested would put him on par with some of the first teamers. An 18-year-old player with 4 sub appearances earning as much as some established first team players - I'm sure you can see the flaw, no matter how talented Pogba is. When those first team players eventually get more money, our "bigger" players will ask for more and so on. There's a reason clubs like United stick to a wage policy, because at the end of the day many footballers (and all their agents) are greedy as feck and will use any possible trick to get a little extra when it's time to negotiate.
 
Its annoying that so many here keep saying we lost 2 of our best young talents. We didnt lose Morrison. Fergie clearly couldnt get rid of him quick enough. The boy is demonized and Id say beating up his own mother is only one of the few stories that got out about him. Id say Fergie has a dosier 50 pages long of bad things Morrison was getting up to in his free time. Players like that can be the ruining of a club. Its infectious all around.
When we sold Keith Gillespe there was uproar that we sold the new George Best. Fergie clearly knew what he was doing!
 
Of corse it's a pity if we lose him, but if the sole disagreement is over the agent, then can't Pogba sack his agent? Or just accept the contract anyway ?
 
I've been really busy and can't be arsed reading the thread, someone tell me if he's left or if it's been confirmed he will?

Cheers..
 
He's both here and gone :D
 
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