Luis Nani | 2012/13 Performances

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A lot of the time he can be a classic case of doing the difficult things easily and making the easy things look difficult. Which is frustrating, regardless of how much you like him. He has that Anderson thing of sometimes overhitting a 10 yard pass by 20. With his ability it shouldn't happen. He has more talent than the majority of players in the league (obviously the Anderson comparison has ended by this point).

But that shouldn't take away from all the good stuff he does. Invariably he does something in a game to hurt the opposition.
 
The good stuff is there for everyone to see and I think everyone agrees on it. The key for me is the not so good stuff. Some seem to think it's cool as is part of the deal with creative players, but others think this 'stupid shit' as AN described it earlier effects our overall play in a very negative way. I think the groans the fans express have to be someway echoed by those on the park, which is a bad thing IMO. Nani's fannying is the exact opposite of a crunching tackle; not monumental in itself but can effect the overall disproportionately.
 
moses said:
The good stuff is there for everyone to see and I think everyone agrees on it. The key for me is the not so good stuff. Some seem to think it's cool as is part of the deal with creative players, but others think this 'stupid shit' as AN described it earlier effects our overall play in a very negative way. I think the groans the fans express have to be someway echoed by those on the park, which is a bad thing IMO. Nani's fannying is the exact opposite of a crunching tackle; not monumental in itself but can effect the overall disproportionately.
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But he's unique in that he's probably our one player who can create things out of absolutely nothing, regardless of how bad a day our team's got. And he gives us a different approach, a different option, to every other attacking player in the squad.

He can create, dribble, score from distance and finish well all by himself, sometimes combining those in one move, and that's something we quite frankly need.
 
Brophs said:
A lot of the time he can be a classic case of doing the difficult things easily and making the easy things look difficult. Which is frustrating, regardless of how much you like him. He has that Anderson thing of sometimes overhitting a 10 yard pass by 20. With his ability it shouldn't happen. He has more talent than the majority of players in the league (obviously the Anderson comparison has ended by this point).

But that shouldn't take away from all the good stuff he does. Invariably he does something in a game to hurt the opposition.
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That's a pretty fair post.
 
moses said:
The language in this thread is more like gossiping teenagers than football fans. Turn on him indeed.
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I'd say IAR's opst was pretty accurate - the language just reflects that in the rest of the forum, and particularly the matchday thread.
You'd think Nani was some hated oposition player, Suarez or Tevez or someone, the shit he gets in there.
 
marjen said:
But he's unique in that he's probably our one player who can create things out of absolutely nothing, regardless of how bad a day our team's got. And he gives us a different approach, a different option, to every other attacking player in the squad.

He can create, dribble, score from distance and finish well all by himself, sometimes combining those in one move, and that's something we quite frankly need.
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Maybe I'd prefer a team that didn't need something out of nothing quite so frequently. And I think Nani's mood effects us too much, which is risky for such a hot and cold player.

I agree that sometimes he can do anything, as everyone does, because he can; but sometimes he infuriates.

And we can all make lists that paint only one picture as he can give the ball away needlessly, make the wrong pass, make no pass when he should, mishit a simple pass, and shoots when it's patenty not on.

And as for the if someone finished he have more assists point that is being made in this thread, that's out of the same book as the 'Liverpool hiting the post = good team' philiosophy book.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I'd say IAR's opst was pretty accurate - the language just reflects that in the rest of the forum, and particularly the matchday thread.
You'd think Nani was some hated oposition player, Suarez or Tevez or someone, the shit he gets in there.
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That's a mad place though and is full of people at their worst from what I see. It is no yard stick for anything except knee jerk madness.
 
moses said:
Maybe I'd prefer a team that didn't need something out of nothing quite so frequently. And I think Nani's mood effects us too much, which is risky for such a hot and cold player.

I agree that sometimes he can do anything, as everyone does, because he can; but sometimes he infuriates.

And we can all make lists that paint only one picture as he can give the ball away needlessly, make the wrong pass, make no pass when he should, mishit a simple pass, and shoots when it's patenty not on.

And as for the if someone finished he have more assists point that is being made in this thread, that's out of the same book as the 'Liverpool hiting the post = good team' philiosophy book.
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I just think the Nani of today produces far more than he takes away from a team. The Nani of his first couple of seasons was a worse player.

I don't think he's as frustrating as he was a couple of seasons ago. He rarely loses the ball needlessly these days, and his end product and passing is becoming better.

I guess I just accept that he's a ridicilously talented player that will blow hot and cold, and treasure what he gives us.

As for the comment about the team, well we wouldn't need to rely on him if we got the other players firing on all cylinders. Valencia, Kagawa, van Persie and a functioning central midfield in full flow would make Nani's contributions a bonus and an extra threat and variety, not a prerequisite for us to create stuff.
 
moses said:
That's a mad place though and is full of people at their worst from what I see. It is no yard stick for anything except knee jerk madness.
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True. I popped in last night for the first time in ages, and was fairly gobsmacked.
It's like the thread grows so fast, with so many new posts every minute, that everybody feels they have to be a bigger cnut than the last guy in order to stand out.:lol:
 
moses said:
And as for the if someone finished he have more assists point that is being made in this thread, that's out of the same book as the 'Liverpool hiting the post = good team' philiosophy book.
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No it's not, that's a rubbish comparison. He did his job in his case, which is provide the crucial pass to create the opening for a teammate to score. There is nothing more he can do after he slices the defence open, unless he is naruto and splits himself in two.

And not 'everybody' can do brilliant things as you imply, not even on their good days. His ceiling is much higher than most and therefore he will regularly create 2 or 3 good chances regardless of form on the day.
 
marjen said:
But he's unique in that he's probably our one player who can create things out of absolutely nothing, regardless of how bad a day our team's got. And he gives us a different approach, a different option, to every other attacking player in the squad.

He can create, dribble, score from distance and finish well all by himself, sometimes combining those in one move, and that's something we quite frankly need.
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Nahh you're making out he's a class apart from the rest of our attackers and absolutely vital he starts every week, which isn't the reality. We have the best forwards in the world bar Barcelona IMO, we don't 'quite frankly need' Nani. I'm not saying he's not an important player, but you're overdoing it. Van Persie, Kagawa, Rooney, Valencia can all create and score just as well as Nani.

Point being he isn't so vital that we have to unquestionably accept all the little things he gets wrong, which is all some people are complaining about. Yes he can create chances, but he's also incredibly frustrating at times, which is entitled to be pointed out.
 
Kevin said:
No it's not, that's a rubbish comparison. He did his job in his case, which is provide the crucial pass to create the opening for a teammate to score. There is nothing more he can do after he slices the defence open, unless he is naruto and splits himself in two.

And not 'everybody' can do brilliant things as you imply, not even on their good days. His ceiling is much higher than most and therefore he will regularly create 2 or 3 good chances regardless of form on the day.
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I never implied everybody can do brilliant things and have more than once acknowledged Nani's superior ability. Thus proving my main point in this thread. People acting like hysterical little girls. I said we can all paint a one sided image with a list.

I think the Liverpool comparison is good, as they too are creating chances, like Nani's saving grace?

And as for doing his job, unless making silly decisions is part of his job then he's not doing it as consistently enough for some people, which is the harshest anyone in this thread is saying.

So calm down darling.
 
Sir A1ex said:
True. I popped in last night for the first time in ages, and was fairly gobsmacked.
It's like the thread grows so fast, with so many new posts every minute, that everybody feels they have to be a bigger cnut than the last guy in order to stand out.:lol:
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The best reads are the games we win 3 or 4 nil but take 30 mins or so to score the first goal. Insane.
 
moses said:
I never implied everybody can do brilliant things and have more than once acknowledged Nanis superior ability. This proving my main point in this thread. People acting like hysterical little girls. I said we can all paint a one sided image with a list.

I think the Liverpool comparison is good, as they too are creating chances, like Nani's saving grace?

And as for doing his job, unless making silly decisions is part of his job then he's not doing it as consistently enough for some people, which is the harshest anyone in this thread is saying.

So calm down darling.
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No, because if the chances were put away then the Nani critics would be praising him for creating a chance of which was put away and not wasted by our goal shy strikers. Not clinging on to anything, it's just plain obvious.

Creating chances = doing his job
Creating more than 5 chances = doing it well
 
I wonder would it be possible to get him and Kagawa to play nearer each other for a few games to see if the link up play and one touch football can be developed some more? That's the type of football I'd love to see us play more of. Every time we get the ball moving really fast between our forward players in the final third for more than 5-6 quick passes we look immense and have the potential to open teams up at will. It's just getting that tempo up front while not leaving yourself exposed on the break which seems to elude us now, just like the start of last season.
 
Barring the penalty miss, I thought he got better with time and had a good game. Definitely one of our most effective attackers. Set Hernandez up for two great chances, should have won a penalty and set Kagawa up for a pretty good chance.

Still wouldn't say he's at his best. Still not able to put the finishing touches to his good work as often as you'd expect but as a creator I thought he did very well.
 
Theon said:
Nahh you're making out he's a class apart from the rest of our attackers and absolutely vital he starts every week, which isn't the reality. We have the best forwards in the world bar Barcelona IMO, we don't 'quite frankly need' Nani. I'm not saying he's not an important player, but you're overdoing it. Van Persie, Kagawa, Rooney, Valencia can all create and score just as well as Nani.

Point being he isn't so vital that we have to unquestionably accept all the little things he gets wrong, which is all some people are complaining about. Yes he can create chances, but he's also incredibly frustrating at times, which is entitled to be pointed out.
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On the topic of frustrating players, Rooney can be the most frustrating of the lot when his touch is off, and Valencia had countless chances to put in a decent cross last night but each and every one was either overhit or couldn't beat the first man. 2 things that if Nani done then it would be picked up on, then on the other wing we created our best chances yet he was this frustrating shit decision making brainless diver.
 
Orton said:
No, because if the chances were put away then the Nani critics would be praising him for creating a chance of which was put away and not wasted by our goal shy strikers. Not clinging on to anything, it's just plain obvious.

Creating chances = doing his job
Creating more than 5 chances = doing it well
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So everone is stupid and can't actually judge what they saw, and people misjudge Nani because of what others players do? How the hell is that obvious?

Why can you not see that NOBODY is arguing that Nani didn't contribute but are only saying he is a frustrating player.

Why are ye incapapable of even discussing the parts of his game that are not perfect? Unless he is perfect in your opinion?
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I wonder would it be possible to get him and Kagawa to play nearer each other for a few games to see if the link up play and one touch football can be developed some more? That's the type of football I'd love to see us play more of. Every time we get the ball moving really fast between our forward players in the final third for more than 5-6 quick passes we look immense and have the potential to open teams up at will. It's just getting that tempo up front while not leaving yourself exposed on the break which seems to elude us now, just like the start of last season.
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That should be what we are aiming for and we certainly have the players to do it but the more often we stick with the same 2 in midfield and the same old ping the ball to Valencia, run and cross routine will happen. We have so much more potential than that, and it's such a waste to see players like Kagawa overlooked just so we can try play down the right wing, for the umpteenth time. Some of the neat interplay between Evra, Kagawa and Nani was a joy to watch and that should be the focal point of our team instead of predictable wing play.
 
Orton said:
On the topic of frustrating players, Rooney can be the most frustrating of the lot when his touch is off, and Valencia had countless chances to put in a decent cross last night but each and every one was either overhit or couldn't beat the first man. 2 things that if Nani done then it would be picked up on, then on the other wing we created our best chances yet he was this frustrating shit decision making brainless diver.
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This was the most frustrating thing about our attackers last night. Valencia's crossing was abysmal. Absolutely abysmal.
 
Theon said:
Nahh you're making out he's a class apart from the rest of our attackers and absolutely vital he starts every week, which isn't the reality. We have the best forwards in the world bar Barcelona IMO, we don't 'quite frankly need' Nani. I'm not saying he's not an important player, but you're overdoing it. Van Persie, Kagawa, Rooney, Valencia can all create and score just as well as Nani.

Point being he isn't so vital that we have to unquestionably accept all the little things he gets wrong, which is all some people are complaining about. Yes he can create chances, but he's also incredibly frustrating at times, which is entitled to be pointed out.
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All people are asking for is a balanced opinion. Is he wasteful at times? Yes. Despite that waste, was he better on the night than all those names you mentioned? Yes. Criticize and give credit. Many posts in here and the matchday forum ignore the good, because of some preconceived notions.
 
I didn't see much preseason but did he play much?

Looks short on games and confidence to me, totally agree that all he needs is a goal to give him a boost. He's certainly capable of changing a game on his day.
 
moses said:
So everone is stupid and can't actually judge what they saw, and people misjudge Nani because of what others players do? How the hell is that obvious?

Why can you not see that NOBODY is arguing that Nani didn't contribute but are only saying he is a frustrating player.

Why are ye incapapable of even discussing the parts of his game that are not perfect? Unless he is perfect in your opinion?
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Except some people are, look at some of the comments a couple of pages ago.

2007 Nani was back
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Shambles, absolute shambles. He wasn't his usual erratic self, that was diabolical - bar a couple of good passes.

And to think that a good number of people wanted him to replace Valencia on the right. Has to sort this out, he can be truly wonderful on his day.
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He was inconsistent as hell, and I'm being kind.
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Get a grip Nani lovers. This game showed him up perfectly. A really shit first half and a really good second half. There's no 7 or 8 out of ten with him. His penalty was rank and if Fergie was expecting Robin to take it, even more so. He's too greedy. He should by this age know how to pick out the right pass and play it way, not behind the player. He seemed on a mission after he missed the penalty, one which was lucky not to lead to a red card with the diving and over-zealous challenges. 4/10 first half, 9/10 second half.
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Diving? When did he dive? He had no other reason to go down when he did as he got past his man quite easily, so where the hell does this red card thing come from?

Yeahh agreed, don't think he had a great game at all, surprised by the comments. He needs to cut down on the shooting as well, looks like he's desperate to score when occasionally there are better options.
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He had 3 shots all game, one was a good save, the other was dire and the other was the penalty. You would think he done a Ronaldo and took 10-15 pot shots going by this guys comment.
 
adexkola said:
But at least, he was thinking.
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Thinking what exactly? Right, there's a couple of players abot 6 yards away from me around the penalty spot... I'd better whack it full pelt about 12 feet in the air!

It was his lack of thinking about where he was and looking at where other players were that was annoying. It's like he has one standard cross, and it's designed to work from anywhere within 5 yards of the corner flag.
 
moses said:
So everone is stupid and can't actually judge what they saw, and people misjudge Nani because of what others players do? How the hell is that obvious?

Why can you not see that NOBODY is arguing that Nani didn't contribute but are only saying he is a frustrating player.

Why are ye incapapable of even discussing the parts of his game that are not perfect? Unless he is perfect in your opinion?
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This is an interesting point. At what point, if a player does the things he's 'supposed' to do, do you forgive him doing a lot of things he shouldn't do? If, for example, RVP or Rooney score a lot of goals, can you forgive them shooting every time they get the ball? Can you allow the bad decisions to be cancelled out by the good, or do you demand more because they're capable of the good?
 
Nani did great yesterday, of course had it's negatives, especially the shitty penalty, but overall was great. The similar passes to Evra and Chicha were on 1x1 situations, linking up with Shinji, moving everywhere, at a time there were him, Valencia and Kagawa in the same wings, frightening as feck for a defender.

If he had score people would be raving how good he was. The penalty blurred the vision a little.
 
Meh. Nani is a very good player who's main problem is that he comes across as a bit of a tosspot. He gives the impression that he thinks he deserves the limelight, which makes his mistakes all the more pronounced and more annoying. People could tolerate it with Ronaldo because what the feck do you say when someone is scoring 42 goals in a season? But Nani is not Ronaldo, so he needs to work harder for the team instead of trying to do 'something out of nothing'.

He was quite good last night though, to be fair.
 
moses said:
I never implied everybody can do brilliant things and have more than once acknowledged Nani's superior ability. Thus proving my main point in this thread. People acting like hysterical little girls. I said we can all paint a one sided image with a list.

I think the Liverpool comparison is good, as they too are creating chances, like Nani's saving grace?

And as for doing his job, unless making silly decisions is part of his job then he's not doing it as consistently enough for some people, which is the harshest anyone in this thread is saying.

So calm down darling.
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What a stereotypical caf reaction, any criticism or disagreements with a redcafe poster and as a nothing 'comeback' or retort, we get this masterpiece reply. We are disagreeing with eachother, so the other poster must be 'riled' and 'angry'. Heh heh heh...

You continue to compare a player's performance with a team's. It is unfortunately a bit stupid. For example, when Liverpool hit the post yet again, as a team, they FAILED to score and as a result might FAIL to win. The TEAM has failed... while still having three or four players who did their jobs well.
When you turn on the microscope and begin dissecting how the players performed in the whole move that resulted in not scoring, you can see two or three pieces of the machinery doing what they should and doing it well.

Thus Nani providing chances on a plate that are not taken should be commended and not dismissed because of Hernandez being a plank. Valencia, being a 'sensible non frustrating player' by caf standards, created next to nothing... and escapes criticism by and large.

We are, as you remember, discussing your dismissal of the moves that Nani has started successfully as a 'Liverpool hits the bar' theory, so just why you feel the need to then mix in some of his frustrating stuff to this discussion I do not know.
It is the former I disagree with, not the latter, because he does do stupid things. Me being able to accept this as a drawback for what he does really well (which you are discrediting), is the difference here between us...
 
Well i'd say all of our wingers have started the season poorly, Nani included.

In the Premiership for example:

  • Nani has played 197mins, got 2 assists and had 6 shots. That's a shot every 32.8mins and an assist every 98.5mins.
  • Young has played 80mins, got 1 assist and had 4 shots. That's a shot every 20mins and an assist every 80mins.
  • Valencia has played 270mins, got 1 assist and had 1 shot. That's a shot every 270mins and an assist every 270mins.

At least with Nani on the pitch you know that he's going to be a goal threat and provide chances. He might be frustrating at times, but he is a genuine threat. Valencias stats are shocking, I thought he was awful last night too. But that's for a different thread.
 
Taking just yesterday's game alone, it's a good example of how he's perceived in general. Yes, with more discipline and consistency in the basics, Nani wouldn't have frustrated as much, but at the same time, he produced more clear-cut goal scoring oppertunites than anyone on the pitch. Surely the parts where he frustrated take a back seat to the chances he made? I can't see that much room for criticism to be honest, he wasted some oppertunities going forward, but he also provided about 5 chances for goals, I accept that return.

Just like with Giggs and his final ball, or Valencia and his crossing, usually he puts in a lot of crosses, and some of them aren't effective, but obviously he needs to put in the attempts for at least one to come off. Yesterday none of those came off for Valencia, but you see nothing of that frustration, because it's afforded to him. I see the same thing with Nani, except it's not with crossing but decision making. At times, first half in particular it was very poor, however overall, his decision making yesterday could have resulted in five goals....

Now you can't argue it wouldn't be better for him to sort out some of the easier stuff, but why pick up on the frustrating parts from a game like yesterday, which in all come completely second to the numerous chances he created? Maybe he would have had 10 chances created then? I get the frustration at him, I really do, but in the context of a match like yesterday where he puts that many goals on a plate, is it really that relevant?

Would we still have the frustration talks if he had 5 assists yesterday? It seems a strange thing to focus on the frustration side of it when there were so many highlights to his game. Again, if yesterday was a typical example of how he could play, would that not be incredible? You would ignore the times he frustrates because of the overall contribution he gives, we saw this in countless games last year with Rooney for example and how his end product overshadowed the fact he was missing in many of those games. It didn't seem to matter though, because the goals were what counted, and I agree with that.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think frustation is very valid, but I just don't see it in yesterday's game, because Nani did create so many chances. If he hadn't, then I'd whole-heartedly agree, but given it is over 90 minutes, not the first half, he finished the game as someone who should have been the provider of at least 3-4 goals, which all it all is pretty good. I'd get this criticism from some of his other recent games, where poor decision making resulted in very few or wasted chances for others.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I am getting a bit confused by this thread - can somebody let me know if that is too many or too few?
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3 shots a game. Considering Ronaldo averages 10 a game, it's low for that type of winger. Don't know how many Robben has, but he is one of the most selfish players in the world.
 
Brophs said:
This is an interesting point. At what point, if a player does the things he's 'supposed' to do, do you forgive him doing a lot of things he shouldn't do? If, for example, RVP or Rooney score a lot of goals, can you forgive them shooting every time they get the ball? Can you allow the bad decisions to be cancelled out by the good, or do you demand more because they're capable of the good?
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I think isolating 5 things Nani did and don't take into account his 90 minutes and hiw it effects the teams play is pointless. As pointless as saying he was shit if created 5 chances. It's 90 minutes and that's the big picture.

Who thought that we'd score as many goals as we did when Ruud left or that Arsenal would have as many hidden strigs to their bow as we saw when Henry left? You have to step back and see how he effects the team both positively and negatively, not just build a team from a combination of isloated individuals. We all slate Real for that nonsense.

Personally, if I was playing beside Nani on the park I'd be annoyed with him, a lot.
 
Kevin said:
What a stereotypical caf reaction, any criticism or disagreements with a redcafe poster and as a nothing 'comeback' or retort, we get this masterpiece reply. We are disagreeing with eachother, so the other poster must be 'riled' and 'angry'. Heh heh heh...

You continue to compare a player's performance with a team's. It is unfortunately a bit stupid. For example, when Liverpool hit the post yet again, as a team, they FAILED to score and as a result might FAIL to win. The TEAM has failed... while still having three or four players who did their jobs well.
When you turn on the microscope and begin dissecting how the players performed in the whole move that resulted in not scoring, you can see two or three pieces of the machinery doing what they should and doing it well.

Thus Nani providing chances on a plate that are not taken should be commended and not dismissed because of Hernandez being a plank. Valencia, being a 'sensible non frustrating player' by caf standards, created next to nothing... and escapes criticism by and large.

We are, as you remember, discussing your dismissal of the moves that Nani has started successfully as a 'Liverpool hits the bar' theory, so just why you feel the need to then mix in some of his frustrating stuff to this discussion I do not know.
It is the former I disagree with, not the latter, because he does do stupid things. Me being able to accept this as a drawback for what he does really well (which you are discrediting), is the difference here between us...
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Again with the not reading. I never dismissed his contribution, just tried to put it in context of a team and 90 minutes of play.
 
Hectic said:
Taking just yesterday's game alone, it's a good example of how he's perceived in general. Yes, with more discipline and consistency in the basics, Nani wouldn't have frustrated as much, but at the same time, he produced more clear-cut goal scoring oppertunites than anyone on the pitch. Surely the parts where he frustrated take a back seat to the chances he made? I can't see that much room for criticism to be honest, he wasted some oppertunities going forward, but he also provided about 5 chances for goals, I accept that return.

Just like with Giggs and his final ball, or Valencia and his crossing, usually he puts in a lot of crosses, and some of them aren't effective, but obviously he needs to put in the attempts for at least one to come off. Yesterday none of those came off for Valencia, but you see nothing of that frustration, because it's afforded to him. I see the same thing with Nani, except it's not with crossing but decision making. At times, first half in particular it was very poor, however overall, his decision making yesterday could have resulted in five goals....

Now you can't argue it wouldn't be better for him to sort out some of the easier stuff, but why pick up on the frustrating parts from a game like yesterday, which in all come completely second to the numerous chances he created? Maybe he would have had 10 chances created then? I get the frustration at him, I really do, but in the context of a match like yesterday where he puts that many goals on a plate, is it really that relevant?

Would we still have the frustration talks if he had 5 assists yesterday? It seems a strange thing to focus on the frustration side of it when there were so many highlights to his game. Again, if yesterday was a typical example of how he could play, would that not be incredible? You would ignore the times he frustrates because of the overall contribution he gives, we saw this in countless games last year with Rooney for example and how his end product overshadowed the fact he was missing in many of those games. It didn't seem to matter though, because the goals were what counted, and I agree with that.
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Yup, that's the gist of it.
 
Brophs said:
This is an interesting point. At what point, if a player does the things he's 'supposed' to do, do you forgive him doing a lot of things he shouldn't do? If, for example, RVP or Rooney score a lot of goals, can you forgive them shooting every time they get the ball? Can you allow the bad decisions to be cancelled out by the good, or do you demand more because they're capable of the good?
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That is a valid point, but why aren't people consistent? Why is all (almost all) the criticism after yesterday evening aimed at one player, who happened to deliver more than all bar one or two players on the pitch?
 
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