Phil Jones in midfield revisited

Got to agree with some of you guys that Phil Jones most suitable position is right back. Another Gary Neville type. Not tall enough for a centre back.
Actually to counter teams which are good in aerial set play, United should use this back-line:

RB-Jones CB-Smalling CB-Vidic LB-J,Evans

Evra can be used as a left sided mid-fielder in place of Young (unless he improves) who is really not suitable in any United formation.
 
elmo said:
For all his talents, it's really hard to see where Jones will fit in for us in the long term. His game is best suited in defence, but he's too raw to be played there now as he'll cost us points with his tactical naivety.

Really think he needs to be loaned out for him to get more game time.

Edit: He might just turn out to be like O'Shea, never really holding down a proper spot in the team and just playing wherever we need him to.
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I agree with you, it seems that SAF sees him as someone good to have around but doesn't really know where to play him. A utility player in the mould of John O'Shea seems to be his likely future. I'm looking forward to seeing him play in goal sooner or later.
 
Tonjo said:
Got to agree with some of you guys that Phil Jones most suitable position is right back. Another Gary Neville type. Not tall enough for a centre back.
Actually to counter teams which are good in aerial set play, United should use this back-line:

RB-Jones CB-Smalling CB-Vidic LB-J,Evans

Evra can be used as a left sided mid-fielder in place of Young (unless he improves) who is really not suitable in any United formation.
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Can't agree with you there, Evra is great going forward but he can't produce the end product like a 'proper' winger can in terms of goals & crosses. Having said that, this season, so far, he seems to have been more productive that the rest of his United career.

Evra isn't a winger.
 
Colin129 said:
Can't agree with you there, Evra is great going forward but he can't produce the end product like a 'proper' winger can in terms of goals & crosses. Having said that, this season, so far, he seems to have been more productive that the rest of his United career.

Evra isn't a winger.
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If I remember correctly, Evra used to be a left winger during his earlier days with another team. Since he cannot run back as quickly as he could previously, why not use him as a left sided midfielder. At least he can help in defending when required and also, it seems like he has more penetration than Young going forward.
 
Tonjo said:
If I remember correctly, Evra used to be a left winger during his earlier days with another team. Since he cannot run back as quickly as he could previously, why not use him as a left sided midfielder. At least he can help in defending when required and also, it seems like he has more penetration than Young going forward.
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I can see where you're coming from, but this season is the first where he has really penetrated to any great extent, even so his final ball is not one of his strengths. Mind you, since he usually plays with a proper winger he doesn't usually need to, he's used to acting in a support role to Nani/Giggs & leaves them to provide the final ball.
 
elmo said:
For all his talents, it's really hard to see where Jones will fit in for us in the long term. His game is best suited in defence, but he's too raw to be played there now as he'll cost us points with his tactical naivety.

.
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Hence he'll pick up games at RB, CB & MF for a few years to help him develop and then slot into a CB position long term.

He's 20. People expect way too much these days
 
Eyepopper said:
Hence he'll pick up games at RB, CB & MF for a few years to help him develop and then slot into a CB position long term.

He's 20. People expect way too much these days
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He's young, plays with his heart on his sleeves and signed for us when most people thought he was signing for Liverpool when they made an offer before we hijacked the deal, the fans loved him even before he touch a ball for us.

Think he would benefit more from going on loan to play in CB though, Evans' time at Sunderland really helped him develop his game and I think Jones need something similar.
 
Tonjo said:
If I remember correctly, Evra used to be a left winger during his earlier days with another team. Since he cannot run back as quickly as he could previously, why not use him as a left sided midfielder. At least he can help in defending when required and also, it seems like he has more penetration than Young going forward.
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You're right, Evra played as an... attacker in 2000-2001 with Nice's reserves (and previously he was also an attacking player, if I recall correctly). The next year, he was made into a left back.
 
Loaned out? Phil Jones? He'll get plenty of game time here with our defenders' injury records. It's more about deciding how high his ceiling is as a centre-back; personally, I think he might be better than Jonny Evans but not quite as good as Chris Smalling, once they've maxed out their development.

At the moment we've got a Rio (2002 model), Silvestre and Brown situation, where they're each top class on their day but not as a combination going to inspire total confidence yet. Of course we ended up having to go out and get Vidic when Brown and Silvestre weren't able to hold it down, but I think our defenders now have more potential.
 
As a CB Smalling is in a different division to Jones. Why Jones get the press he does and Smalling doesn't is quite baffling to be honest. If going by their performances the last two seasons Smalling should be touted as a future England captain!
 
Red Norse said:
As a CB Smalling is in a different division to Jones. Why Jones get the press he does and Smalling doesn't is quite baffling to be honest. If going by their performances the last two seasons Smalling should be touted as a future England captain!
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I'm not sure how much more press Smalling gets, but Jones probably gets extra attention for captaining Rovers at a young age and showing a bit of the John Terry leadership traits that the media like. I agree Smalling is the better player now but Jones is definitely 'in his division' as you put it. They're outstanding prospects, both.
 
No doubt Smalling is the more ball playing centre half. No doubt Jones is the more physical and slightly mad centre half. Both will be good players in the centre of the United defence. But also, no doubt at all in my mind that Jones is not a midfield player. He doesn't even know where to stand!
 
Gazza said:
I'm not sure how much more press Smalling gets, but Jones probably gets extra attention for captaining Rovers at a young age and showing a bit of the John Terry leadership traits that the media like. I agree Smalling is the better player now but Jones is definitely 'in his division' as you put it. They're outstanding prospects, both.
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The sinister side of me thinks Smalling has the "wrong" skin-color.

Smaliing is a lot more dependable a CB than Jones, he's proved it.

Jones is very much a work in progress. I saw there was a thread about Smalling's passing. When will Jones have a similar thread? God know there's stuff to pick at.
 
There does not need to be a 'revisit' as the OP suggests. He is never in a million miles a midfield player. The basic fundamentals needed to play in midfield are passing and ball control and surprise, suprise those aren't his strengths.
 
Jones is far too an important player for us to go on loan. I have so much faith in this kid he is going to be a wonderful player. His drive is unbelievable I think he's more than capable of being a box to box midfielder. Will turn out to be an exceptional centre half also he is superb in the air. I remember him dominating Drogba when he was at Blackburn. People need to give him time and enjoy him as the first half of last season I have never seen a kid be so good at united in their first 6 months.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
We need to pick one role for him and make him stick to it.
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His versatility might be his biggest asset and a bane at the same time. I wish that we pick a role and stick him there too but at this stage moving around in different positions might be his best bet to get game time. He would play mostly as a center back once Vidic's and Rio's time comes a close at the club. He can fulfill a role if asked but he is not a central midfielder for me. Center back is his best position and with his immense talent there shouldn't be a reason why he couldn't make that spot his within a couple of years.
 
I don't mind him getting time in the middle, at 20 playing in a variety of roles is fine, end of the day it's experience for him at the biggest club in England. It's only him playing in a/m which he's done a few times now, is an issue for me as it doesn't help us and I can't see what it gives him as that's one role he won't play long term.
 
I am pretty sure this is another player who will get ruined and become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I really hope he gets his chance to partner smalling in the middle and phase out rio and vidic he needs to nail down a place in the starting eleven a centre midfielder he is not
 
I think he potentially be best suited to DM role shielding the CBs. We haven't seen him do at United but I believe that's where he played often for Blackburn. He could sit deep, offer a lot of support defensively, and allow the two full backs and two more attacking minded midfielders to push forwards. His distribution is decent, and his job would be pretty simple in terms of offering an outlet and playing it short. Defensively his positioning is good but not quite good enough for CB (yet at least). He would be good at destroying attacks and he'd still have the occasionally opportunity to make his driving runs.

Rooney - RvP - Valencia
Anderson - Cleverley
Jones
Evra - Vidic - Smalling - Rafael
DDG​
 
Rowem said:
I think he potentially be best suited to DM role shielding the CBs. We haven't seen him do at United but I believe that's where he played often for Blackburn. He could sit deep, offer a lot of support defensively, and allow the two full backs and two more attacking minded midfielders to push forwards. His distribution is decent, and his job would be pretty simple in terms of offering an outlet and playing it short. Defensively his positioning is good but not quite good enough for CB (yet at least). He would be good at destroying attacks and he'd still have the occasionally opportunity to make his driving runs.
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This is exactly what Jones can't do. He's extremely enthusiastic and just wants to make surging runs forward at every possible opportunity, he doesn't have the discipline to sit deep yet, that's why Sir Alex used him as our most advanced midfielder last time.
 
He hasn't been asked to sit deep when in midfield for us. He's either partnered Carrick and been asked to play box-to-box, or taken up some bizarre AM role on a couple occasions. Of course he could do so, if that was the role given to him. He's a CB by trade, of course he has defensive discipline.
 
He doesn't though, he's still very young and rash in a lot of ways. It's why so many get worried when they see him on the teamsheet in CB, because nobody knows what the feck he's going to do.

He is definitely a CB, no doubt, but I don't want to see him in any sort of midfield role for this club, it's a sad state of affairs if we are forced to use him there.
 
If he's played at the base of midfield then 75% of the play is going to be initiated by/played through him. That's why we brought in Carrick to replace Keane instead of Mascherano. When you're playing that role for a team that has 60+% possession it's more important to be a good ball-player than a good tackler. Makelele might have been limited but he was a very reliable short-passer and he had great awareness - Jones hasn't shown a lot of either so far. I don't see what makes him suited to the role at all.
 
Cina said:
He doesn't though, he's still very young and rash in a lot of ways. It's why so many get worried when they see him on the teamsheet in CB, because nobody knows what the feck he's going to do.

He is definitely a CB, no doubt, but I don't want to see him in any sort of midfield role for this club, it's a sad state of affairs if we are forced to use him there.
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So he's a CB with zero defensive discipline? I don't buy that at all. It makes zero sense. How can you be sure of him becoming a centre back if you think that of him?

So far as a CB at this level he is exposed for his relative rashness and lack of discipline. DM would seem to perfect position for him to work on his discipline and position with a view to fulfilling his potential as a CB (or simply making the position his own) whilst utilising some of his other attributes.

Alex Song was brought through as a CB at Arsenal but it was soon clear he was a bit headless in that position at such a high level. However he's clearly a good footballer, so that DM role he took up at Arsenal suited him perfectly. Jones doesn't have the ball-playing skills, but he would still bring a lot to the table. Lack of defensive discipline would probably be the thing I'd be least worried about, he'd have no problem there imo, it's whether or not his ball skills would make the grade.
 
Rowem said:
So he's a CB with zero defensive discipline? I don't buy that at all. It makes zero sense. How can you be sure of him becoming a centre back if you think that of him?

So far as a CB at this level he is exposed for his relative rashness and lack of discipline. DM would seem to perfect position for him to work on his discipline and position with a view to fulfilling his potential as a CB (or simply making the position his own) whilst utilising some of his other attributes.

Alex Song was brought through as a CB at Arsenal but it was soon clear he was a bit headless in that position at such a high level. However he's clearly a good footballer, so that DM role he took up at Arsenal suited him perfectly. Jones doesn't have the ball-playing skills, but he would still bring a lot to the table. Lack of defensive discipline would probably be the thing I'd be least worried about, he'd have no problem there imo, it's whether or not his ball skills would make the grade.
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Surely his biggest asset as a midfielder would be his physicality, that burst of speed and strength. So wouldn't it be a waste to just have him pottering around in front of the back four? I'd want him everywhere, causing as much disruption as possible.
 
Brwned said:
If he's played at the base of midfield then 75% of the play is going to be initiated by/played through him. That's why we brought in Carrick to replace Keane instead of Mascherano. When you're playing that role for a team that has 60+% possession it's more important to be a good ball-player than a good tackler. Makelele might have been limited but he was a very reliable short-passer
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This is certainly the thing that would be in doubt, not so much his positioning. That can be worked on, and as a CB he clearly has a starting block in terms of defensive awareness as you call it. He'd arguable be/become more competitive/aggresive than Carrick defensively, cover more ground, plus offer driving runs forwards.

I think he's pretty comfortable on the ball. You don't need a Pirlo in that role. Just someone to pick simple enough passes. Hargreaves was never a great passer. Dutch and Brazilian sides often have a DM who is nothing spectacular on the ball. So long as there are two creative players in front of them I don't see it as a problem.
 
MrMojo said:
Surely his biggest asset as a midfielder would be his physicality, that burst of speed and strength. So wouldn't it be a waste to just have him pottering around in front of the back four? I'd want him everywhere, causing as much disruption as possible.
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What part of my post makes you think he'd be pottering?

That's exactly why you'd want him there, using his energy to cover defensively. He could be a great 'destroyer' in that sense, and would still have opportunities to surge forwards.
 
He's a £16m John O'Shea at the moment - a decent full back, a poor to average centre half and a poor midfielder packed into one. I don't see much of a future for him at right back because Rafael is clearly a superior talent in that position and he'll never be a midfielder - either he makes it as a CB or he won't fulfil his potential.
 
Rowem said:
What part of my post makes you think he'd be pottering?

That's exactly why you'd want him there, using his energy to cover defensively. He could be a great 'destroyer' in that sense, and would still have opportunities to surge forwards.
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Well that's my interpretation of the DM which is where you want him to play. DM is all about positioning there rather than physicality and aggression. Surely you'd want his energy to be used all over the midfield in a more traditional box to box role rather than contained to that small area in front of the back four.His power and pace is an attacking threat, but stick him at DM and you lose that.
 
Sarni said:
He's a £16m John O'Shea at the moment - a decent full back, a poor to average centre half and a poor midfielder packed into one. I don't see much of a future for him at right back because Rafael is clearly a superior talent in that position and he'll never be a midfielder - either he makes it as a CB or he won't fulfil his potential.
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Plus, he is 20 as of now. Still a lot of time to go for him to develop fully as a player.

Jones was played at RB last season because we had innumerous problems there with having sold Brown and O'Shea and Rafael being injured and not being able to nail a permanent position. That's the reason why him and Smalling were rotated over there.

He will be a very good DM/CB in the coming years, but he needs to be knocked in a lot of positional sense as of now to be able to become that player.
 
MrMojo said:
Well that's my interpretation of the DM which is where you want him to play. DM is all about positioning there rather than physicality and aggression. Surely you'd want his energy to be used all over the midfield in a more traditional box to box role rather than contained to that small area in front of the back four.His power and pace is an attacking threat, but stick him at DM and you lose that.
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You can have defensive midfielders who chase and harry. Surely that'd be a pretty big asset in that position. Hargreaves springs to mind. Van Bommel. Cambiasso. Gattuso.
 
I think we could possibly mould him into a Gattuso-type player but then he played alongside Pirlo and often Ambrosini too - a playmaker and a disciplined holding midfielder. Cambiasso played alongside Mascherano, Motta, Vieira and others. Hargreaves played alongside Frings and Van Bommel. Most of these players were simply the runners in midfield - they still had another player who sat deep alongside them and distributed the ball, or sat deep and gave them freedom to use their energy higher up the pitch.

I can't see Jones ever being a good enough distributor to play without a Carrick-type player alongside/behind him.
 
For whatever it's worth I think his physical style and strong running mean that he could play in the middle when we're playing a much weaker side, where he could almost overpower them.

I don't like seeing him in there when touch and awareness are needed, though. He just looks like he really struggles with the speed at which he has to make the right decision.
 
Rowem said:
You can have defensive midfielders who chase and harry. Surely that'd be a pretty big asset in that position. Hargreaves springs to mind. Van Bommel. Cambiasso. Gattuso.
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Playing him DM would be like making him play with the handbrake on in my opionion. If his passing and touch were better it might be worth it given his energy levels, but they're not.

I'd just let him off the leash to go and cause as much mayhem as possible.
 
It took a while for Fletcher to get going so we really should be patient with Jones.

Can people see him become Carrick's understudy?
 
Brwned said:
I can't see Jones ever being a good enough distributor to play without a Carrick-type player alongside/behind him.
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It's certainly the area of his game that would be most in question in DM (as opposed to his positioning/discipline).

However we haven't seen him in that role at all yet so it's hard to say for sure. He's always been touted as a ballplaying CB, I'd like to see him test those skills in DM. With either Cleverley or Anderson dropping deep to help him out with distrubition, and the other pushing forwards, I think it'd work nicely.
 
A £16m John O'Shea? Get the feck out of here.

He has many times the talent that O'Shea had. At 19, during the first half of the season he did brilliantly for us despite playing in different positions. He was injured for more than 2 months and after his comeback was, for some reason, asked to play as the most advanced midfield player in the weirdest game of the season so far and now he is a £16m John O'Shea?. Give the kid a freaking break.

Once he settles into a position, which I think is CB, he is going to become a great player. He is an exuberant young player, who sometimes runs into more advanced positions but that is not something that will curb as he matures into the role. He would be a vital cog in defense if we are to adopt to a more exciting, up-tempo style of play that everyone wants. We are not going to become a Barcelona or a Dortmund by playing Vidic in defense.
 
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