Shinji Kagawa

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Sixpence said:
We have to get him on the ball where he can effect the game with his creativity and vision. Asking him to run up and down the left wing is not what he wants to be doing.
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This. It's just not effective. When he was further up against Norwich, he was exceptional.

We're not going to get the best out of him if we play him out wide.

In general, not a great performance from him but I thought he was pretty decent. Up to his substitution, he kept trying to create. He almost set up RvP for the winning goal all on his own by passing to Rooney on the wing, running past him and getting the ball back and playing the ball across the byline. Unfortunately, it was just a bit behind RvP. Nonetheless, it was something. Everyone else were still struggling to get to grips with how to pass.

Again, it wasn't his best game and he gave away some needless passes. However, I thought he made some positive contributions and wasn't as bad compared to the others. We need to play him in his best position. It's where he's most effective.

As others have mentioned, he benefits most when players play off of him. Something we are STILL not doing with any regularity. I won't go as far as saying he needs the side to be built around him. Although, he does need his fellow teammates to play to his strengths. It's also up to him to show more conviction in his play. We've seen the potential but Sir Alex needs to decide how he's going to get the best out of him. It won't happen on the wing. That's for sure. Not with the way we play.
 
Hes the kind of player who reallyneeds the other players around him to be on their best game. They also need to have good linkup play. Welbeck is perfect with Kagawa on paper. RVP or Rooney on form as well, they just arent at the moment.

Hernandez is the kind of player who just doesnt fit with Kagawa because of his lacking link up play.

Kagawa really seems like a luxury player from what hes showed so far for us. Not the kind of player who will do stuff on his own when the team as a whole is struggling. And it sucks. We need match winner who can stand up even when the rest have a bad day. Very good against teams that park the bus with his clever link up play though.
 
Kagawa looks to have a good understanding with Rooney. Think there was one moment where Kagawa was crossing with his left foot and he saw that Rooney peeled off into the centre but Clev intercepted the cross instead.
 
He's always in space, and looking for the ball. It's getting it to him that seems to be rather difficult. He was playing too deep today, in my opinion, and had too much defensive responsibility.
 
Brosstan said:
Hes the kind of player who reallyneeds the other players around him to be on their best game. They also need to have good linkup play. Welbeck is perfect with Kagawa on paper. RVP or Rooney on form as well, they just arent at the moment.

Hernandez is the kind of player who just doesnt fit with Kagawa because of his lacking link up play.

Kagawa really seems like a luxury player from what hes showed so far for us. Not the kind of player who will do stuff on his own when the team as a whole is struggling. And it sucks. We need match winner who can stand up even when the rest have a bad day. Very good against teams that park the bus with his clever link up play though.
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To be fair, I don't think he can show it when the team don't really use him that much. He's definitely a match winner. He's shown that for Dortmund on numerous occasions. Question is, are we going to put him in the position where he was so lethal for Dortmund?

I'm one of those who thinks playing expansively nullifies what makes him so good. He has to drift from the wing in order to make more of an impact. Or he drops deep but doesn't really do anything other than keep possession. Against the smaller teams this is fine but it can leave a gap for the bigger teams to exploit. It's been said by Mad Winger many times before but Kagawa is one of the first players of this type to join this club. I think it's quite telling in how he anticipates his teammates' movements and how the rest of the lads react to his presence. He'd probably benefit from a more narrow setup with more players around him but we don't really play that way.

I don't think we'll see any real telling signs about this transfer until next season (one way or another).
 
Must admit I havent seen him play at all for Dortmund, so Im just basing it on what Ive seen in his games for United. He might be more of a match winner than he has seemed given the right formation.

I agree he seems like a player who would shine in a narrow formation. A bit of a shame for him that SAF has made such a poor attempt at making that work when we saw some great games with a narrow formation early this season. Instead hes been hell bent on forcing out of form wingers like Valencia and Young into the side.

Welbeck, Kagawa, Rooney, RVP could all function together very well in a narrow formation. It also suits Cleverley who is a midfielder who likes the short passes more than long passes to the wings. But its as you say not a very United-typical way of playing the game, so it would need some games to get going.

Would be great if we could wrap up the league and then go for that sort of formation in the meaningless games in the end. As well as playing our youngsters and fringe players ofc.
 
I didn't think he played badly at all. He isn't the type of player that will grab a game by the scruff of the neck and make things out of nothing. He keeps things moving along and takes up good positions to receive the ball and looks to give it off quickly. Leave him isolated and he is going to look poor because he thrives of players around him. That is largely the problem we are having with him I feel. We play a fairly deep game, invite pressure on as and look to play out quickly. That leaves him fairly isolated a lot of the time which doesn't suit him. If we want to get the best out of him, I'd say we are going to have to change our style slightly and become more compact instead of looking to stretch the game.
 
In your system dargonk, it could work if we are looking to break quickly as you say. The only difference being, Kagawa would be playing higher up. Dropping deep to move the counter-attack along.

When Welbeck came on, we slightly improved, and it wasn't necessarily because Kagawa was poor. Danny has been here since he was a wee lad and he knows the system in and out. It shows. He just knew what to do, especially since we played him in his favored position. For Kagawa that hasn't happened yet and for me, the more we play him out wide, the longer it will take.

I would like that Brosstan. However, as you say it would need games to get going and from my recollection, our fans dont see the need to try it out nor seem to have the patience to wait until it works. Wingers work well for us yet this season our wingers have largely been shite. When the burden falls on the CM, it becomes even more problematic.

If you look at the players in our squad, we have players who excel in two very distinct styles of play and those who excel in both. We have players like Valencia, Young, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Rafael and Hernandez who excel in the more expansive setup. Then you have players like RvP, Cleverley, Anderson, Kagawa, Welbeck, Nani who excel in a more narrow setup with their interplay and movement. Players like RvP, Carrick and maybe Rooney can excel in both setups. It makes for interesting viewing when we mix these two styles. Not saying it's the wrong route to go but as for now, it seems to cause some confusion when we move forward or defend as a team. Early in the season, it made for some interesting lineups. When we started Giggs, Scholes and Kagawa together against Tottenham at home, it just didn't sit well with me. These styles become more apparent when you see what these players are looking for when their head is up and surveying the play.

I dont want us to turn into City with no plan B. Having tactical flexibility and versatility is a great asset. Nonetheless, besides our expansive setup, we haven't quite nailed down how to play in a narrow setup. Whilst the diamond imo, was a decent idea in theory, it still left us wanting to use the flanks too much. Once again, seemed to lead to more confusion and we had players running into the same spaces. Also, we kept the ball neatly without having much incisiveness. Perhaps the incisiveness could have come if we persisted with the system, but there was no way we were pulling away from heavily using the wings. Come to think of it, we don't have to be so narrow. We could try a hybrid of the two (ideal scenario) but thus far , it hasn't seemed to work so well.
 
People have been a bit too knee jerk after yesterday's match.

I don't get it how Kagawa is made the scapegoat. Who would have played in his place? Young? The knives would have surely been out then.
 
The Kagawa scapegoating is actually the most retarded thing about the Caf by far. And that says a lot! Football is a team sport, and Kagawa is the very definition of a team player. It's no wonder he gets anonymous when our whole team starts playing like shit. Also, there's no point in scapegoating when our loss is a result of a collective failure. Rooney, Cleverley and Valencia were all far worse than Kagawa anyways.

As for the people who say we signed him for commercial reasons: get a grip. We signed one of the best Bundesliga players for 12 million. That's fecking value if we also consider that he's got a very good injury record and only is 23 years old, and that we signed him 2012(players just get more and more expensive). To claim that we signed such a player for commerical reasons is actually racist. Just because the Asian market is big, it doesn't make every Asian signing a potential gold mine.

But let's be completely retarded for a minute and assume that Kagawa actually was signed for commercial reasons(and that pigs can fly). If that's the case, then I'd say our marketing strategy has failed completely and that everyone who suggested the move should be fired for being utterly ignorant about the Japanese market. So far, I haven't seen a single Kagawa jersey in Japan, even though I live pretty close to his hometown. And I play futsal! I'm surrounded by people who actually are interested in football! Still, whenever I talk to them about Kagawa, they actually underestimate him. They barely know anything about him, nor do they care to follow his process! In short; Kagawa is in no way a football god in Japan. Manchester United does also not hold a special place with Japanese football fans. The hardcore United fan who buys jerseys and takes trips to Old Trafford, belongs to a small subculture at BEST. I'd actually say that United would be much better off signing a Norwegian player rather than a Japanese player, considering how huge and passionate the Norwegian fanbase is.
 
That's not true, having just been in Tokyo last week, there were plenty of Kagawa adverts around.
 
I'd say the notion of him being bought mainly for marketing reasons should have been dropped by now after some of his performances. He's not going to adapt straightaway because of change in style between Dortmund and United and the difference between the two leagues but he's shown glimpses of what he could be here already.

A very clever player with great technique. When he settles in he's going to be a key player for us, of that I'm sure. Great buy.
 
Aye, I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist Mad Winger. Some fans just really have no patience. It's kind of sad actually. I'm not sure how anyone can feel so strongly about Kagawa's being here when he's not really played much in actuality.
 
He was invisible to Carrick and Cleverley half the time, the amount of times he was available for a pass but they instead passed it out to Valencia or Evra was ridiculous.
 
I was especially annoyed by Cleverley's passes out to Valencia when Kagawa was available, Valencia was having a mare but it seemed like Tom was programmed to pass out wide. Maybe it's a bit kneejerk seeing that width has been one of the main reasons of our successes over the years, but if we want Shinji to show his true potential, we're going to have to be more refined than that. I was especially annoyed by Cleverley cos he's a player who's very good technically and often asks for the ball in closed spaced between opposition players, so there was really no reason for him not to trust Kagawa when he was asking for those balls.
 
Where does this guy even fit in our team though? I've watched him for Dortmund and he's obviously incredibly talented but, he's coming into a team with an established player of a very high calibre (Rooney) who plays his position. And he isn't doing much when put on the wing because that's not his style.

As good a player as Kagawa is, this might turn into another Veron - a great player signed at the wrong time.
 
I don't get this moaning about him starting out wide. He barely stays there and for much of the game was drifting inside and playing centrally. As long as we don't limit him to staying wide and playing like a conventional winger (which we haven't) I don't see anything wrong with his position.
 
Anyone who says we signed him for commercial reasons did not see him play in his preferred position at Dortmund.

He's an exceptional player.
 
Andrew~ said:
Where does this guy even fit in our team though? I've watched him for Dortmund and he's obviously incredibly talented but, he's coming into a team with an established player of a very high calibre (Rooney) who plays his position. And he isn't doing much when put on the wing because that's not his style.

As good a player as Kagawa is, this might turn into another Veron - a great player signed at the wrong time.
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He's done pretty well on the left. I don't get where all this criticism is coming from.
 
It's his first season, he's 23, had a two month injury, and is largely being played out of position.

Just sayin'.
 
Platato said:
This. It's just not effective. When he was further up against Norwich, he was exceptional.

We're not going to get the best out of him if we play him out wide.
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I'm certain I have seen you say our best team is with him on the left and Nani on the right?

Signing RVP was a blow for him this season, he was always going to struggle getting games centrally with Rooney and Van Persie as competition. When he was initially signed I expected Rooney to move back up top with Kagawa roaming behind.
 
Theon said:
I'm certain I have seen you say our best team is with him on the left and Nani on the right?

Signing RVP was a blow for him this season, he was always going to struggle getting games centrally with Rooney and Van Persie as competition. When he was initially signed I thought expected Rooney moving back up top with Kagawa roaming behind.
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I'm sure SAF did too. I reckon we were in for Kagawa long before RvP came intot he equation.
 
Rowem said:
He's done pretty well on the left. I don't get where all this criticism is coming from.
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For us or Japan? Because the times I've seen him play on the wing, he hasn't been very effective until we changed tactics and started pushing him through the middle - Norwich being a particularly good example of this (and also Fulham at home).
 
Has he been played in the hole behind RVP yet? I'm trying to think of a time those two have started together and can't.

For me that's when we'll see his true worth. RVP is a brilliant footballer whose touch and movement really suit someone like Kagawa.

Not sure where it would leave Rooney if that combo works as well as it should on paper, but there you go.
 
How come he came off and Cleverley didn't yesterday? He was just about the only player we had who's brain hadn't melted into some kind of panic stricken soup.

How come half the people on the caf seem to not watch him play at all then just lie about how terrible he apparently was? This is the same thing that used to happen with Berbatov, and then Carrick. Is there a secret forum on here where you all pick a player at random to criticise as some kind of hilarious wind up against the rest of us?
 
noodlehair said:
How come he came off and Cleverley didn't yesterday? He was just about the only player we had who's brain hadn't melted into some kind of panic stricken soup.

How come half the people on the caf seem to not watch him play at all then just lie about how terrible he apparently was? This is the same thing that used to happen with Berbatov, and then Carrick. Is there a secret forum on here where you all pick a player at random to criticise as some kind of hilarious wind up against the rest of us?
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:lol::lol:

Agree with the rest as well.

He could be immense played off the front man.
 
Theon said:
I'm certain I have seen you say our best team is with him on the left and Nani on the right?

Signing RVP was a blow for him this season, he was always going to struggle getting games centrally with Rooney and Van Persie as competition. When he was initially signed I expected Rooney to move back up top with Kagawa roaming behind.
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It's possible. I probably said that assuming Rooney would play centrally because at the time it didn't seem SAF wanted to play Kagawa in the middle. After seeing how both he and Rooney have been used, I might change tact but I'm not sure just yet. It's hard to say what's our best team because of the talent we have.

I have come to the conclusion, how we use wingers nullifies what Kagawa is good at. He has to drift in order to be effective. Doing that along with working up and down the channels is just a lot of running. I would rather his energy be used where he has less defensive responsibility.
 
Pitch is really crap too. Hopefully we get a new pitch in the summer and the short passing game of the likes of Kagawa, Cleverley, Nani, Rooney and even Anderson can be allowed to shine a little brighter.
 
akash02 said:
I don't get this moaning about him starting out wide. He barely stays there and for much of the game was drifting inside and playing centrally. As long as we don't limit him to staying wide and playing like a conventional winger (which we haven't) I don't see anything wrong with his position.
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He expends too much energy doing it though. Unless we're dominating the game, Kagawa does a lot of unnecessary running. Drifting inside. Dropping deep to collect the ball in midfield. Being a wide option on the touchline. Covering for Evra and defending on the flank.

By the time it gets to the 70min mark, the lad is gassed. I just think he'd be more effective if he had less defensive responsibility. As others have mentioned, it doesn't help when his teammates don't trust him enough to pass him the ball IN space.
 
There is clearly a problem with playing both Kagawa and Rooney together if Rooney isn't playing up top.Cannot get the best of either of them together on a regular basis
 
Id love to see us play the brand of football we did at the start of last season. Kagawa would thrive in that set up. That's not to say he can't improve in other areas. He needs to iose himself more snd develop his upper body strength. Still, I think he's doing fine and is consistent in his passing and overall ball retention,
 
Platato said:
He expends too much energy doing it though. Unless we're dominating the game, Kagawa does a lot of unnecessary running. Drifting inside. Dropping deep to collect the ball in midfield. Being a wide option on the touchline. Covering for Evra and defending on the flank.
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That's the only issue in mind with playing him on the left. From an attacking point of view I think he does very well drifting inside from the left
 
He does his fair share of defending, I don't know why some are saying he doesn't. There was couple of times last night where Evra end up chasing his player up field, and he was there to cover the space.
 
Jaap said:
Behind the main striker - that's where you want him to play, there, he can cause havoc as he did against Norwich.
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Then Rooney doesn't play. It's a case of too many cooks, but it is mainly down to the fact RVP became available and let's face it, we had to get him when we knew he wanted us. I thought Kagawa would be the link man behind Rooney that we were missing, especially in the big games and in Europe.

He's clearly an exceptional player, but I'll judge him next season. I remember seeing Ramires in his first season and thinking he looked a really poor player, but look at him now. It takes most players a while to adapt to the Premier League.
 
In my opinion if fergie doesn't play him in the position he made his name he is certainly no winger.
Fergie needs to be brave and use him in his best position even if it means leaving a big name on the bench.
If the rumours are true fergie might reunite him with lewandowski they made a great pair
 
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