Shinji Kagawa

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Ash_G said:
Both Valencia and Young provide width which is an important part of our play and an important way to play against teams which focus on narrow play such as Swansea and Chelsea.
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Which is fair enough, but is still a theory that lends credence to Shinji not being involved due to Moyes not really valuing what he brings to the table as much as others. I mean, in reality, that is sort of what your post says.
 
The way I see it, Moyes just wanted to play it safe with Giggs last night. Plus, Moyes is probably aware of Ryan's record against Chelsea recently enough and hoped he'd make something happen in the last few minutes.

Nothing to worry about, Kagawa will get plenty of opportunities this season and the idea that Moyes doesn't rate players of Shinji's mould is rubbish IMO.
 
Rozay said:
Which is fair enough, but is still a theory that lends credence to Shinji not being involved due to Moyes not really valuing what he brings to the table as much as others. I mean, in reality, that is sort of what your post says.
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Not really, there are other areas where Kagawa can bring stuff but right not it's hard to bring him in in those areas for the reasons mentioned in my other post. The addition of Fellaini if true might allow us to bring in Kagawa for these tougher games as the midfield will be stronger, which would be good.

If anything I think the issue isn't so much Kagawa's value but more the issue of the sheer numbers in attack we have. When you count it up it's gonna be very hard to give everyone good time.
 
Shark22 said:
The way I see it, Moyes just wanted to play it safe with Giggs last night. Plus, Moyes is probably aware of Ryan's record against Chelsea recently enough and hoped he'd make something happen in the last few minutes.

Nothing to worry about, Kagawa will get plenty of opportunities this season and the idea that Moyes doesn't rate players of Shinji's mould is rubbish IMO.
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Giggs has started almost every game under Moyes, and experience and all, has probably contributed no more than Shinji would have. His pre-season form was not fairly average I thought.

I can see the appeal for Moyes to play Giggs early on though as he is as tried and trusted as a United player can be, which a new manager may find appealing.
 
Shark22 said:
The way I see it, Moyes just wanted to play it safe with Giggs last night. Plus, Moyes is probably aware of Ryan's record against Chelsea recently enough and hoped he'd make something happen in the last few minutes.

Nothing to worry about, Kagawa will get plenty of opportunities this season and the idea that Moyes doesn't rate players of Shinji's mould is rubbish IMO.
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How you can possibly know that?
 
Moyes loves players like Kagawa, just look at how he used Pienaar.
 
Ash_G said:
With Rooney likely to be first choice with RVP, it leaves welbeck, valencia, young, kagawa and nani fighting it out for the two wide spots and if you want defensive cover then unfortunately kagawa and nani might find it hard to get time. But we'll have to see.
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Sounds reminiscent of how England treated Scholes and we risk the player eventually responding in the same way, well at the least the club football variant of the transfer.



Like Rozay has said i think this pre-season argument is being overplayed somewhat, there are a few players with a similarly disrupted build-up so i'd lean toward the decision making be tactical/personal preference as things stand presently.
 
Just the 36 league games left for Kagawa to possibly play a part in. Moyes clearly hates him and is keeping him out of spite because Klopp is a whining little woman.

But on a serious note he'll get his chances and I reckon he'll play the majority of games in Europe.
 
Kind of related to Kagawa - if Ozil really is available, would anyone take Shinji over him in that wide/drifting left role?

For me Ozil is better in just about every way on the pitch. Would be saddened but if there was business to be done involving bringing in the German and losing Shinji...think it would improve us.

Of course I'd rather we got Ozil and lost Bebe, Young, Macheda and just let poor Giggs retire, but there ya go.
 
Brwned said:
Moyes loves players like Kagawa, just look at how he used Pienaar.
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In a general sense do you think he's going to change our approach to his preferred system or just tweek ours slightly?

I originally thought it would be no more than slight adjustment but Im beginning to change my mind, especially with the lack of signings to date.
 
I definitely think that Kagawa's fitness has been harmed by the pre-season and that has been why we haven't seen more of him, but I can't blame Moyes for not starting him in our 3 competitive games so far.

He played against Sevilla, and the Shield match was 2 days after - no complaints.
Against Swansea, he had been playing with Japan - plus Giggs has played well against Swansea in the past and Moyes knows he can trust him.

Against Chelsea - I don't think there was an option for him to start.. Moyes has been talking about Welbeck's confidence for a while, how could he drop Welbeck after he scored 2 against Swansea? And he had to play Rooney.. firstly, because to not play him would be to concede to losing him to the fans, and would also increase the likelihood of Rooney pushing for the move; secondly, he knew Wayne had a point to prove and there was no better time to do it; thirdly, he's a big game player for United - tried, tested and trusted in big premier league matches with a fair few goals under his belt against Chelsea.

I think Moyes had the intention to bring him on for Rooney. He said that he had told Rooney he would see how he does and maybe bring him off after an hour or so, but how could he take off the one player we had trying to make things happen. Sometimes Rooney tried too hard and wanted to be a hero, but he was effective and we would have slated Moyes if he took him off. Could he have put him left-wing, maybe.. but Giggs has proven he can sure things up in the middle, that he can calm things down with his experience, and maybe most importantly, that he can play that killer pass to win a match.

I think Moyes hasn't seen enough of Kagawa, and I think that he can do well under Moyes. He was wasted out wide last year, but we can already see that Moyes has been telling his wingers to tuck in and come inside - it's a role that maybe isn't his best, but he's definitely competent and capable at.
 
That'sHernandez said:
Are you mental? Chelsea were packing out the centre, so you want to bring on a centrally-inclined hole player? Does no one see the fallacy in this? The middle of the park was getting congested enough as it was with Rooney and Welbeck constantly moving into the same positions behind RVP, the game didn't need yet another hole player to try and play straight through 6 Chelsea players.
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I may be mental but I dispute your idea of a congested midfield meaning there is no choice but to play wingers. That's why the modern game has clever incisive "hole" players, including Rooney and Kagawa. Valencia had an ok game, not great, but he's a better player than Young, who is mediocre.

I think some United fans are so fecking obsessed with wing-play.
 
Alock1 said:
Against Chelsea - I don't think there was an option for him to start.. Moyes has been talking about Welbeck's confidence for a while, how could he drop Welbeck after he scored 2 against Swansea? And he had to play Rooney.. firstly, because to not play him would be to concede to losing him to the fans, and would also increase the likelihood of Rooney pushing for the move; secondly, he knew Wayne had a point to prove and there was no better time to do it; thirdly, he's a big game player for United - tried, tested and trusted in big premier league matches with a fair few goals under his belt against Chelsea.
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So far as starting the game Kagawa wouldn't have been competing with Welbeck but rather Rooney, the latter being at a fairly similar point in his readiness save for a cameo against Swansea.

The experience card is fair enough and the point to prove a reasonable conclusion, however i don't think there was or should have been in compunction due to fears surrounding the transfer seeing as the club was steadfast in its position.


Alock1 said:
I think Moyes had the intention to bring him on for Rooney. He said that he had told Rooney he would see how he does and maybe bring him off after an hour or so, but how could he take off the one player we had trying to make things happen. Sometimes Rooney tried too hard and wanted to be a hero, but he was effective and we would have slated Moyes if he took him off. Could he have put him left-wing, maybe.. but Giggs has proven he can sure things up in the middle, that he can calm things down with his experience, and maybe most importantly, that he can play that killer pass to win a match.
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We could have put Rooney on the left wing you know, as improved a performance as we saw it wasn't as if he was providing the killer ball the forwards needed. Indeed in the longer term i think that Rooney would be far more effective than Kagawa when operating from the left, better at supporting the left back too.
 
I use to be a fan of Rooney playing left wing. As long as he is given the freedom to roam abit and tuck in Id be more than happy with that. Although he can't take on a man the same he use to be able to, he bsrely even tries anymore

Its more a question of his willingness to play that role and whether he would put the effort in. Which I doubt..
 
Cheesy said:
But to adapt to the league and team, he's going to have to play, and last night didn't particularly look good for him. It's certainly too much for others to completely write him off though since he's surely bound to get a decent number of games during the season. Too talented for Moyes just to snub completely.
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He's probably not a 100 percent yet. I'm sure he'll get his start after the Liverpool game. I reckon moyes wants to play it safe in three opening games.
 
manusteve said:
I think some United fans are so fecking obsessed with wing-play.
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You'll find even the most successful manager in the world was obsessed with wingers.
 
Brwned said:
Moyes loves players like Kagawa, just look at how he used Pienaar.
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Would you argue that Pienaar is a tad more dynamic and industrious though? obviously not on the same level in terms of quality but he's always willing to get on the ball and make things happen.
 
Kagawa is one of the most over-rated players on the CAF. Not that I'm not impressed with his Dortmund form but he's done nothing in his year with United to suggest he should be starting over players that are being picked ahead of him.

He's doing nothing in his time at United to suggest he should regularly start over others and that was in a season when all the wingers were in poor form.

Kagawa will have a fight to get into the side as Rooney is a better player than him and all the wide players are probably better out wide than him.

If he can earn a starting place, then great, but he's doing nothing to suggest he deserves to start as a central attacking midfielder over Rooney and Moyes has began this season with Giggs over him.

Swap Nani for Welbeck from Monday and I would say that's United strongest front four.
 
I don't think United's strongest front four includes Valencia, unless we want him for his defensive abilities and workrate. He's done nothing in the past year to suggest he should be starting ahead of... well, anyone, really.
 
Siorac said:
I don't think United's strongest front four includes Valencia, unless we want him for his defensive abilities and workrate. He's done nothing in the past year to suggest he should be starting ahead of... well, anyone, really.
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He was United's player of the season before last and until last season had been a consistently good performer for the club. I'd agree he's got to return to 2011/12 form but Kagawa's hardly in competition for a wide right berth. Even those who want him in the side out of position out wide have him on the left on account of him playing them at international level sometimes.

The same's true of Nani in terms of not having his best season last time around but both Nani and Valencia are proven players for United and what's more out wide is their natural position.
 
If U were to hazard a guess, Moyes doesn't trust the left pairing of Kagawa and Evra defensively, which is fair enough because Kagawa is not that type of player. Bringing Fellaini and Baines in would provide us more bite on the left and in midfield, and if those transfers do go through, we'll see more of Kagawa.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
He was United's player of the season before last and until last season had been a consistently good performer for the club. I'd agree he's got to return to 2011/12 form but Kagawa's hardly in competition for a wide right berth. Even those who want him in the side out of position out wide have him on the left on account of him playing them at international level sometimes.

The same's true of Nani in terms of not having his best season last time around but both Nani and Valencia are proven players for United and what's more out wide is their natural position.
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Last year kagawa did better than valencia even though thats not saying much. Kagawa had injuries last year and when he came back he did well in some games but was never given a run pf games. I think you need to give players like these consitent run. Nani plays best when he's given a run of games as well. You can't just make him a stop start player.
 
I thought Klopp made it clear that Kagawa isn´t a winger...
And I agree he played in the hole or acm against Norwich were he played like an angel!
He is a fantastic little player and after seeing how Moyes use Pienaar I have no worries...
 
arthurka said:
I thought Klopp made it clear that Kagawa isn´t a winger...
And I agree he played in the hole or acm against Norwich were he played like an angel!
He is a fantastic little player and after seeing how Moyes use Pienaar I have no worries...
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Not that I necessarily disagree, but we shouldn't care what Klopp thinks. Kagawa is our player, has been for over a year now, and if we think he can be an attacking midfielder who starts on the wing, then I don't see why he couldn't be that. He's not a winger, no, but that doesn't mean he can't play on the wing.
 
Ainu said:
Not that I necessarily disagree, but we shouldn't care what Klopp thinks. Kagawa is our player, has been for over a year now, and if we think he can be an attacking midfielder who starts on the wing, then I don't see why he couldn't be that. He's not a winger, no, but that doesn't mean he can't play on the wing.
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Well unlike us guys from the forum Klopp actually trained the guy for two years and he also seems to know his stuff, so I don't see why his opinion should be ignored.
 
He's an attacker and therefore can play anywhere behind the 1 frontline striker (as that's how Utd, Chelsea, Real, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern, Dortmund and everyone else in world football plays nowadays). It's not exactly a difficult concept....

Hazard, Mata, Silva, Pedro, Ronaldo, Lavezzi, Cazorla, Walcott, Coutinho, Reus, Gotze...

They are just a random selection of the top of my head. You could play any of them in one of the positions behind a front man. Kagawa is in this bracket of that style of player.
 
pablotatt said:
He's an attacker and therefore can play anywhere behind the 1 frontline striker (as that's how Utd, Chelsea, Real, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern, Dortmund and everyone else in world football plays nowadays). It's not exactly a difficult concept....

Hazard, Mata, Silva, Pedro, Ronaldo, Lavezzi, Cazorla, Walcott, Coutinho, Reus, Gotze...

They are just a random selection of the top of my head. You could play any of them in one of the positions behind a front man. Kagawa is in this bracket of that style of player.
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We play very differently from all these teams thought and it's important to understand that. Unlike these other systems which focus on players always having team mates close together so as to ensure short passing options and hence keep ball, we tend to spread the play and have our players further which makes that short passing hard but allows us to stretch teams and hurt them big time out wide.

That's why someone like kagawa is still taking time to get used to united. It's not a simple case of silva and mata working out wide at other clubs hence these players should work here.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
We play very differently from all these teams thought and it's important to understand that. Unlike these other systems which focus on players always having team mates close together so as to ensure short passing options and hence keep ball, we tend to spread the play and have our players further which makes that short passing hard but allows us to stretch teams and hurt them big time out wide.

That's why someone like kagawa is still taking time to get used to united. It's not a simple case of silva and mata working out wide at other clubs hence these players should work here.
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Who does? United? Or Fergie's United?
 
Ainu said:
Not that I necessarily disagree, but we shouldn't care what Klopp thinks. Kagawa is our player, has been for over a year now, and if we think he can be an attacking midfielder who starts on the wing, then I don't see why he couldn't be that. He's not a winger, no, but that doesn't mean he can't play on the wing.
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Yep, that Klopp fella talks a lot of bullshit. After all, how he is supposed to know where Kagawa plays well, it's not like he has given the chance to Kagawa to become the player he is today.
 
Revan said:
Yep, that Klopp fella talks a lot of bullshit. After all, how he is supposed to know where Kagawa plays well, it's not like he has given the chance to Kagawa to become the player he is today.
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So you reckon Fergie last year or Moyes now should give Klopp a ring for tactical advice on Kagawa before a game? That's what I refer to when I say "we" shouldn't care. Fergie played him on the wing a few times last season and I expect Moyes to do the same this season, and if they think he should be able to do that, I couldn't care less about what his previous manager thinks.
 
Ainu said:
So you reckon Fergie last year or Moyes now should give Klopp a ring for tactical advice on Kagawa before a game? That's what I refer to when I say "we" shouldn't care. Fergie played him on the wing a few times last season and I expect Moyes to do the same this season, and if they think he should be able to do that, I couldn't care less about what his previous manager thinks.
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No, I don't think that they should call Klopp and ask where they should play Kagawa, but on the other side it isn't even debatable that Kagawa's best position is as a No.10 when he looked a brilliant player and one of the best No.10 in the world.
 
Revan said:
No, I don't think that they should call Klopp and ask where they should play Kagawa, but on the other side it isn't even debatable that Kagawa's best position is as a No.10 when he looked a brilliant player and one of the best No.10 in the world.
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But the problem is we have, on form, one of the best players in the world in that position (even if it's not the exact same role). If that means Kagawa has to shift to the wing, so be it.
 
Ainu said:
But the problem is we have, on form, one of the best players in the world in that position (even if it's not the exact same role). If that means Kagawa has to shift to the wing, so be it.
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Kagawa of the second part of 2011-2012 was as good as Rooney has ever been. I would like to see the manager given Kagawa a fair chance, but he'll probably will never have it and serve as a backup for Rooney/Welbeck.
 
Revan said:
Kagawa of the second part of 2011-2012 was as good as Rooney has ever been. I would like to see the manager given Kagawa a fair chance, but he'll probably will never have it and serve as a backup for Rooney/Welbeck.
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Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it any less wrong.
 
To be clear, I was talking about Rooney as a No.10, not Rooney the central striker.
 
A number 10 can be classified as a striker, you know.

Rooney's best ever spell was 10/11 as a #10 behind Hernandez.

Honestly, I'm not sure how people can argue this, and I doubt many would. Rooney is clearly the better player and at his best there's a large gulf between the two players.
 
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