Moyes So Far!

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The reality is that when you have a couple of injuries up top, you don't look that threatening a team when you're playing against real quality. Rooney was good today, but the back-up cast of Young and Valencia, with Cleverley and Fellaini in the middle just isn't a title winning selection. The responsibility on Carrick to create is too much of a burden. You need some level of unpredictability in a wide position - Nani might be it, but he's inconsistent.
 
Number7 said:
Why not take hint from his pathetic performance at Anfield though? And how Nani changed it up a bit when he replaced him? I'm not optimistic that Moyes knows just how shit he is.
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Not arguing with that. Hopefully he does now. And Valencia too. I said it all summer too that with all the hoopla over the central midfield, the two positions we are also mind numbingly shit at are either of the wings. We tried to sign Hazard and Lucas last summer to address that, but were caught a few million short on both occasions. Getting Nani to sign a new contract got a major thumbs up from me for Moyes, now actually playing him will get an even bigger one. And selling Young and Valencia even bigger ones.
 
alastair said:
The reality is that when you have a couple of injuries up top, you don't look that threatening a team when you're playing against real quality. Rooney was good today, but the back-up cast of Young and Valencia, with Cleverley and Fellaini in the middle just isn't a title winning selection. The responsibility on Carrick to create is too much of a burden. You need some level of unpredictability in a wide position - Nani might be it, but he's inconsistent.
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Aye, this is the crux of the matter.

If we're going with a sheer, flat midfield two of Fellaini and Carrick we're absolutely dependant on our wingers beating their man or coming in-field to create. Young and Valencia in their current state does neither and Young never will.

That's why I was so disappointed Fellaini was our only midfield signing of the summer. Even the things he does well doesn't help us if him and Carrick is going to be our cm's, his upside is basically rendered irrelevant.
 
We are very reliant on Rooney and RVP. The frustrating thing is we shouldn't be when we have Nani, Kagawa and Hernandez in our squad as well
 
alastair said:
The reality is that when you have a couple of injuries up top, you don't look that threatening a team when you're playing against real quality. Rooney was good today, but the back-up cast of Young and Valencia, with Cleverley and Fellaini in the middle just isn't a title winning selection. The responsibility on Carrick to create is too much of a burden. You need some level of unpredictability in a wide position - Nani might be it, but he's inconsistent.
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That is true. And it's why the Moyes bashing is a bit over the top. His selection was poor - we have more unpredictable and creative players but he didn't play them - and his lack of substitutions was baffling. But acting like Fergie never did this is ridiculous: first, he created the situation where we're a bit short on genuine proven quality in certain areas and second, he selected Giggs, Scholes and Park at the Etihad in 2012. We played no better in that game than today but City were far more cautious back then, they just didn't play with the same purpose and intensity.
 
marjen said:
Aye, this is the crux of the matter.

If we're going with a sheer, flat midfield two of Fellaini and Carrick we're absolutely dependant on our wingers beating their man or coming in-field to create. Young and Valencia in their current state does neither and Young never will.

That's why I was so disappointed Fellaini was our only midfield signing of the summer. Even the things he does well doesn't help us if him and Carrick is going to be our cm's, his upside is basically rendered irrelevant.
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Yes, completely agree.
 
We are replacing our legendary manager of 26 years, of course there were going to be issues. People who thought it was going to be a seamless transition with us continuing to win title after title are living in cloud cuckoo land, whoever got the job.

Moyes has never managed at this level and the learning curve was always going to be steep. I don't care how many years of overachieving with Everton he had, nothing was ever going to fully prepare him for the job at United. I have my reservations about him but the key thing is that SAF and the board think he's the right man and have placed tremendous faith in him by giving him a 6 year contract.

Unless this season turns out to be an absolute disaster, I'd say he'll get atleast 2 years if not more to see if he can grow into the job and learn whatever it is he needs to learn. I think the fans should give him the same slack that the club as a whole are trying to give him.

It's not easy to manage United under normal circumstances. Throw in that he's replacing one of the greatest managers of all time, he's been dealt a pretty brutal starting fixture list, the club have lost their long time CEO and that the club as a whole have had a disastrous transfer window where we failed to strengthen significantly.

I really think this first season should be put down to being a learning curve for Moyes.
 
alastair said:
Yes, completely agree.
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I was told though that Fellaini was this all-action ball winner that would win the ball and play it into the likes of Rooney, Nani and RvP in good positions. People also reacted incredulous to the suggestion he didn't do any of the things we actually need from our midfielders when the going get's tough.

Today was horrible to watch and while I'm completely aware it's entirely unfair to place all of the blame on him as he's asked to do things he'll never be able to, it was always going to happen when thrown in the deep end like this.
 
alastair said:
The reality is that when you have a couple of injuries up top, you don't look that threatening a team when you're playing against real quality. Rooney was good today, but the back-up cast of Young and Valencia, with Cleverley and Fellaini in the middle just isn't a title winning selection. The responsibility on Carrick to create is too much of a burden. You need some level of unpredictability in a wide position - Nani might be it, but he's inconsistent.
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Not to say I'm happy with them, but it was last season. (Plus Fellaini)
 
We should have played with a 3 men cm with fellaini-carrick-clev in cm, valencia and nani on the flanks and rooney upfront
 
marjen said:
Aye, this is the crux of the matter.

If we're going with a sheer, flat midfield two of Fellaini and Carrick we're absolutely dependant on our wingers beating their man or coming in-field to create. Young and Valencia in their current state does neither and Young never will.

That's why I was so disappointed Fellaini was our only midfield signing of the summer. Even the things he does well doesn't help us if him and Carrick is going to be our cm's, his upside is basically rendered irrelevant.
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If we are going with, let's be honest, a pretty average pairing of Carrick and Fellaini in terms of creativity and guile in CM it means we need absolute world class reliable quality in the wide areas to provide for the strikers. We haven't got anywhere near that.
 
marjen said:
I was told though that Fellaini was this all-action ball winner that would win the ball and play it into the likes of Rooney, Nani and RvP in good positions. People also reacted incredulous to the suggestion he didn't do any of the things we actually need from our midfielders when the going get's tough.

Today was horrible to watch and while I'm completely aware it's entirely unfair to place all of the blame on him as he's asked to do things he'll never be able to, it was always going to happen when thrown in the deep end like this.
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It's the way the game totally passed him by which was the most worrying. He didn't get stuck in, he didn't try to physically bully or intimidate the opposition, he didn't get in their faces. He was ballwatching a LOT and basically looked like a frightened little bunny. Ok, a huge fecking bunny with an afro.

His performance against Leverkusen was encouraging but if he can't do it against the top sides... well let's wait and see. Hopefully Moyes and the technical staff will show him a detailed video of his performance in this game to demonstrate what NOT to do in the future.
 
Sixpence said:
If we are going with, let's be honest, a pretty average pairing of Carrick and Fellaini in terms of creativity and guile in CM it means we need absolute world class reliable quality in the wide areas to provide for the strikers. We haven't got anywhere near that.
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Personally I would say that we do, or at least in terms of this league. Nani, Kagawa and Rooney off RVP is as strong as what City put out today and has the individual ability and the link up ability to work off a Carrick/Fellaini base.
 
We've been playing zombie football for years. Now with Moyes we might not get away with it as often as when we were under SAF.
 
verminater said:
Fergie lost derbies 1-5 and 6-1.
There is a tad too much criticism here. Understandable, considering the painfully inept display, but a bit early to reject Fellaini (or Moyes)
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I don't reject any of them. I voiced concerns about the Fellaini signing and indeed I'm not overly convinced on the appointment of Moyes but let's be honest, who would get off easy after replacing SAF?

I'm not writing either of them off but so far what they've shown have reinforced my views on them. Moyes likes to play it a tad to safe, that is obviously something that could change. Fellaini doesn't give us what we need in midfield, that one is less likely to change but I'll stand by him as long as he plays in red.
 
Moyes is already showing his tactical limits with this horrible display. Never mind not using good players we have, what about making substitutions to get some of those "unfit" players some playing time.
 
verminater said:
Fergie lost derbies 1-5 and 6-1.
There is a tad too much criticism here. Understandable, considering the painfully inept display, but a bit early to reject Fellaini (or Moyes)
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Stop citing the fecking 5-1. That wasn't a title winning side getting torn apart, we finished 13th the previous season. And we were down to ten men for 45 minutes in the 1-6 and ended up going gung-ho and getting destroyed on the break in the last 10 minutes. A slight difference.

We did no better in the 1-0 defeat at the Etihad in 2012 though. City weren't as good on that day as today.
 
No big deal. Loss of 3 points hurts but David will cope with raised questions about the injuries, freshness and tactical attitude problems but I think this season may be a right time time to present some players a reality check about what they're contributing at the moment to the mix and what will happen if they won't take today's result to their hearts.

Deadline is May 2015. This is Manchester United and playing for this club requires more than just a presence on the pitch in bigger matches.

Moyes can take the pressure but I won't be surprised if maybe one, particular player will leave this summer because of lack of ambitions even when the talent was obviously there. I'm sure the new boss is capable of making hard decisions, especially when it comes to altering the squad for it's own good.
 
about time to change the tag to 'Moyes Sack Watch' after this display..
 
The result doesn't surprise me one bit and that's the sad truth. Still it's a long season, but Dave needs to wake up a bit and use our technical players a bit more (or at all in Nanis case).
 
Randall Flagg said:
I have been worried since the day fergie retired. This time has always been a worry.

I would not be surprised if we have a very hard season and we have no idea how patient the Glazers really are.
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We don't want them to be too patient. To 'do a Liverpool' and give 4/5 years to a failing manager, out of some misguided sense of fair play, could be disastrous.

DM has inherited a winning team, and been offered the financial resources to improve it. There's no reason for an extended period of grace.
 
RedSky At Night said:
The result doesn't surprise me one bit and that's the sad truth. Still it's a long season, but Dave needs to wake up a bit and use our technical players a bit more (or at all in Nanis case).
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Were his players more technical at Everton? I'm just wondering because he has an incredible record against City with Everton.
 
The thing that annoys me is he's actually making it so much harder on himself the way he's played it so far.

If he had not opted for Fellaini but instead signed a more adventurous player he'd not having to put up with the "he's turning us into a rich man's Everton"-brigade.

If he'd not opted to sit out a draw against Chelsea when they defended for their lives the entire second half at his first home game he'd not have to put up with calls that he's too cautious.

If he'd not choose the entirely uninspiring and boring midfield four of today he'd not having to put up with people questioning his tactical awareness.

Instead all the questions will be asked and it's going to be a fecking horrible job for him to turn this around. He's not given himself any kind of head start in what is basically the impossible job to begin with.

By almost every action he's taken he's reinforced the views of those claiming this is a manager being elevated a couple of levels higher than his ability deserves. And it would have been much easier not to fall into those traps.

I'm absolutely not calling for his head or anything like that, and I like much about him - but he's going to have to put up with circling vultures already and that sucks.
 
marjen said:
I don't reject any of them. I voiced concerns about the Fellaini signing and indeed I'm not overly convinced on the appointment of Moyes but let's be honest, who would get off easy after replacing SAF?

I'm not writing either of them off but so far what they've shown have reinforced my views on them. Moyes likes to play it a tad to safe, that is obviously something that could change. Fellaini doesn't give us what we need in midfield, that one is less likely to change but I'll stand by him as long as he plays in red.
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I think Fellaini gives us a little bit of what we need (i.e. a competent player in midfield.) The problem is that he is nowhere near enough. We're still a Carrick injury away from disaster in the midfield.
 
Siorac said:
Stop citing the fecking 5-1. That wasn't a title winning side getting torn apart, we finished 13th the previous season. And we were down to ten men for 45 minutes in the 1-6 and ended up going gung-ho and getting destroyed on the break in the last 10 minutes. A slight difference.

We did no better in the 1-0 defeat at the Etihad in 2012 though. City weren't as good on that day as today.
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I have only just mentioned the 5-1 once, and City weren't the team they are now, either. We finished above them that year 13th & 14th.
We were champs when Southampton took us apart 6-3.
There are usually a number of reasons behind a defeat like this, but some people have their own agendas.
Let's see how we feel at Christmas before losing faith.
 
jem said:
I think Fellaini gives us a little bit of what we need (i.e. a competent player in midfield.) The problem is that he is nowhere near enough. We're still a Carrick injury away from disaster in the midfield.
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Yeah if Carrick goes down we're in the shits completely.
 
verminater said:
I have only just mentioned the 5-1 once, and City weren't the team they are now, either. We finished above them that year 13th & 14th.
We were champs when Southampton took us apart 6-3.
There are usually a number of reasons behind a defeat like this, but some people have their own agendas.
Let's see how we feel at Christmas before losing faith.
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I wouldn't even have minded the loss to such a degree if we had only went and had a go at it.

The manner of the loss is the thing, not the result in itself.
 
He picked the wrong team today. And tbf he was badly let down by some of those players that he did pick.

Will be learn from it though? That's the question.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Were his players more technical at Everton? I'm just wondering because he has an incredible record against City with Everton.
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That's a hard one to answer. City/Everton isn't a Derby, nor is it a title clash match. So the match conditions aren't the same. I'd say Everton have decent technical players and they're normally motivated and press very well (something we haven't really been doing). I just don't think when it comes down to it that Dave has the chops for the United seat. But that's just my opinion and I hope he proves me wrong.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
He picked the wrong team today. And tbf he was badly let down by some of those players that he did pick.

Will be learn from it though? That's the question.
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Yep, that's what you have to hope. Both in terms of the players he has and in terms of approaching these tough matches hopefully he's learn a lot, in fairness with City and Chelsea both dropping points they probably shouldn't have we shouldn't suffer from these games as much as we could off.
 
He should have made changes at half time today. Even a blind person could see that Young should not even be in the squad.
 
marjen said:
I wouldn't even have minded the loss to such a degree if we had only went and had a go at it.

The manner of the loss is the thing, not the result in itself.
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Agree totally.
I hated the 1-0 performance more than th 1-6, two years ago, because we didn't even try.
Today our fullbacks and wingers were in dreamland!
It would be easy to criticize Rio too, but him and Vidic were constantly being pulled wide to cover the gaps.
Moyes should have gone 4-5-1 at half-time. The difference between the teams was so obvious.
Danny should probably not have played either. He was rusty.
Young was dire, and the team as a whole never kept the ball in the first half.
 
RedSky At Night said:
That's a hard one to answer. City/Everton isn't a Derby, nor is it a title clash match. So the match conditions aren't the same. I'd say Everton have decent technical players and they're normally motivated and press very well (something we haven't really been doing). I just don't think when it comes down to it that Dave has the chops for the United seat. But that's just my opinion and I hope he proves me wrong.
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Seems obvious you feel that. People who do are using this as raw meat to devour. Truth is, we've seen United turn off several times over the past recent seasons. Ugly losses at big clubs. It's become fairly frequent.

The players needed to not do that today exactly BECAUSE we have a new manager, who IS going to make mistakes, particularly in a DERBY.

Not saying Moyes didn't make mistakes, because he did. And I expect him to, as I would expect any new manager to in this position. But the players were shit. And that's not on Moyes. That's been infecting the squad for a while.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Seems obvious you feel that. People who do are using this as raw meat to devour. Truth is, we've seen United turn off several times over the past recent seasons. Ugly losses at big clubs. It's become fairly frequent.

The players needed to not do that today exactly BECAUSE we have a new manager, who IS going to make mistakes, particularly in a DERBY.

Not saying Moyes didn't make mistakes, because he did. And I expect him to, as I would expect any new manager to in this position. But the players were shit. And that's not on Moyes. That's been infecting the squad for a while.
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That is unfortunately true. We've been second best in the biggest games far too often in recent years.
 
verminater said:
Agree totally.
I hated the 1-0 performance more than th 1-6, two years ago, because we didn't even try.
Today our fullbacks and wingers were in dreamland!
It would be easy to criticize Rio too, but him and Vidic were constantly being pulled wide to cover the gaps.
Moyes should have gone 4-5-1 at half-time. The difference between the teams was so obvious.
Danny should probably not have played either. He was rusty.
Young was dire, and the team as a whole never kept the ball in the first half.
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Pretend you're Carrick today. You get the ball, after much dallying by Rio, a tad too late. You're slightly pressured as the ball's took such a long way to find you. You've got Fellaini five yards deeper waiting for the easy pass. You've got Young and Valencia standing still waiting for the ball with a fullback up their bums. You've got Rooney roaming around desperately trying to make space close-guarded by Fernandinho and Kompany and you've got Chris Smalling as the fecking right back.

What out ball is there? There is none. We need players who move. It's quite simple. If Fellaini's not going to get himself higher up the pitch so Carrick can find him in behind City's midfield, then Young or Valencia must come infield. It's too easy to pin our hopes on Rooney and Carrick as the only players who'll take responsibility in midfield.
 
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