His problem is not the position but our style of football which just does not suit his play.
Shinji Kagawa
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Yes. He looks more comfortable in the middle but its still nothing like what he is capable of producing. Our static style isnt conducive to players like him.
We need more players like him, hence why Mata would make perfect sense (even if he is not the holy grail of a CM that we crave and need).
I think he can play on the left and still be very effective as long there's movement and our tempo is quick. There's no reason why the likes of Mata, Rooney and Kagawa can't co-exist. But as long as we stick to our slow build up play Kagawa's quite useless
Absolutely. Its all about he movement and the style of play. What am saying is that he looks more comfortable through the middle now because he atleast has more options, out wide he really gets stuck because of the static style of play. change that and he'd flourish anywhere.
The funny thing is it's not just him that will benefit from it. All of Rooney, Welbeck, Nani and even Januzaj now would be hell of a lot more dangerous if we increased our tempo but for some reason we keep playing slow shite football spearheaded by the mighty Antonio Valencia.
That's the funniest bit. Our style is built around our biggest weaknesses, our wingers.
I agree, Varun.
In fact, this gif from the Galatasaray game is a prime example of what can happen if he's played through the middle from a static start with plenty of defenders back.
Galatasaray have 7 defenders in the box when Nani has the ball on the edge, and two 1-2's takes 5 of them out and perhaps Kagawa should get his shot off earlier.
I think that Kagawa would work well on the wing if we played a fast, fluid system where we're constantly moving defenders out of position, but when the play is slow and static then he has no chance unless he's central.
Its obvious that he's not played very well most of the time, there's no point denying that, but its not an excuse to say that our 'style' and system just doesn't suit him atm. His game is built around movement, quick thinking, one two's etc...not rigid 4-4-2's and heavy wing play. As a Dortmund fan said in an article a few weeks ago, if you're expecting Kagawa to be the type of player that gets the ball, beats three men then sticks it in the top corner then you've gonna be very dissapointed. I'm still holding out hope that if we do sign Mata it would see a change in style towards a more flexible, less winger relient system.
I'm gonna sound very pessimistic but I still wouldn't see any major change in play style even with the arrival of Mata. We have in Kagawa, a player who is less flexible than Juan and even with him we don't try to play with a different style. With Mata, Moyes would probably think "Let's play him as a winger as he's versatile and good enough for it."
With the players we currently, we should have seen a general change in the football we play because what we play isn't working anymore, I doubt the arrival of other players will change Utd much in terms of tactics.
Unfortunatly I agree, its probably more just hopeful thinking on my part that we might see a change. I really would hate to see us try and shoehorn Mata in on the wing though, like a traditional winger, it'd be such a waste.
I think the fact we're going after Mata shows that we are looking to change style, but we will have to see.
I think there is no chance that Mata will be shoe horned into our current setup after we spend 40 million on him.
I hope even if the Mata deal doesnt happen Moyes remains committed to changing our shape and style a bit. That can only benefit Kagawa, which is not the reason to do it, of course. But if we do and Kagawa thrives it can only benefit us and improve the quality of football weve been playing and the results.
I'd agree. If we'd change our style, a lot of our players could benefit and it would make our currently weak wingers less important
I have to agree with this. Even in his most productive few months he was still statistically (and visibly) mediocre. I personally believe that last season, minus a handful of good performances (3-4 in August and then a few after Christmas), he was underwhelming. Everyone put this down to him adapting to a new League and his best performances were used as yardsticks for his "normal" level. However as time goes on, it seems just like Young vs Arsenal after he signed and recently vs Stoke, his best performances last season were his absolute top level, rather than a standard he can achieve in this League regularly.
His laziness on the left hand side is also infuriating. Even Evra in 2008 would struggle to be defensively sound behind him, let alone nowadays.
You say that Young is playing in his favourite position, but one of his most statistically efficient spells at Villa was behind the striker, but regardless I certainly wouldn't expect an apparent top level player to have the same statistics as Ashley fecking Young, whether or not they are playing on average around 20 yards away from their ideal position.
I'd say that Young is equally reliant on playtime. He's a mediocre player but look at his efficiency when he had a team built around him at Villa (what you are suggesting we do with Kagawa). I suspect he was putting forward great numbers at a shit team like Villa vs Kagawa in a far superior Dortmund team. It's easy to say Young "lacks creativity and the necessary skills to pose a genuine threat", from the last 18 months I'd say Kagawa lacks the skill, strength and ability required to consistently create chances in this League.
From the last 18 months Nani, Kagawa, Valencia and Young have all been similarly consistently poor, with the occasional good game. I suspect the latter two are selected because in spite of their poor play, they have a reputation for working hard and covering their full back. The fact is we need to be looking at players that are better than Young, Valencia, Nani and Kagawa. I suspect this is why we are being linked with Mata, a player who is superior in every way to our current options.
/edit Young stats (PL only):
07/08: 8 goals and 17 assists in 37 games
08/09: 8 goals and 7 assists in 36 games
09/10: 5 goals and 7 assists in 37 games
10/11: 7 goals and 10 assists in 34 games
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So Moyes is looking at changing style because we are apparently signing Mata. You don't change style radically through buying players it is initialised on the training ground.
Klopp, Guardiola, Bielsa, Martinez, Wenger, Pochettino, Rogers etc. Managers who have drilled their players (most inherited) to play a certain way. Buying Mata isn't going to radically alter the way United play unless it is drilled into them in training.
Klopp, Guardiola, Bielsa, Martinez, Wenger, Pochettino, Rogers etc. Managers who have drilled their players (most inherited) to play a certain way. Buying Mata isn't going to radically alter the way United play unless it is drilled into them in training.
Which is the primary reason Young and even Welbeck get games there ahead of him.
With Kagawa on the left we need to play something like
rafa---Smalling-- Jones---Evans
-----------------------------Evra
-------- Carrick--
-------------------Gudgeon
-------Januzaj-------------------Kagawa
-----------RVP/Rooney------------
It would change automatically, because there will be no one on the wing to pass it to when we play our best team. No more pass it to Antonio 'I have no idea how to cross a football' Valencia or Ashley fecking Young, we will actually have players capable of pass and move football... even with RvP and Rooney out. Mata, Kagawa and Adnan behind Welbeck? Sounds like fantastic movement and short passing to me.
Which is the primary reason Young and even Welbeck get games there ahead of him.
With Kagawa on the left we need to play something like
rafa---Smalling-- Jones---Evans
-----------------------------Evra
-------- Carrick--
-------------------Gudgeon
Januzaj-------------------Kagawa
-----------RVP/Rooney------------
To be honest most teams that play a similar formation to the above, that can effectively incorporate a player like Kagawa have a very strong central midfield who can cover for them. At City the likes of Nasri and Silva have zero defensive responsibilities, because they have a Fernandinho (and to some extent Toure) covering. This is one of the reasons that I can't see Kagawa working in any position with our current team, he does not work hard enough to effectively play the "number 10" or a wide role.
Kagawa looks good when other teams back off us, give him space to operate and let us play (as with Berbatov - he's great when we'd win 2, 3 or 4-0 regardless), but when we are under pressure he is a passenger. This is fair enough for World Class players like Ozil or Mata who more than compensate with their attacking contributions (whereby when you are under pressure they create a moment of magic from nothing), but I've never seen anything from Kagawa to suggest that he could offer this much offensively, whilst being poor defensively.
It seems to me that he needs a great midfield to cover for him, but isn't good enough offensively to justify allowing him that lack of responsibility. You adapt your team for a player like Mata or Ozil, because you don't want their offensive contributions stifled by having to defend. Players like Kagawa must adapt to you by working harder, which at the moment he has not done.
Yep, thats basically the point I was making. With City it is obviously a lot to do with their MF (and not having a LB with notions of being a left winger). Another thing is that, IMO Silva and Nasri are better players than Kagawa, stronger on the ball etc.
Nail on the head.
Is he? Where has he said that then?
Its actually our new director of football thats looking to change our system.....
Except those very same players have been playing the same outdated style of football all season. Signing Mata is going to just change that like a flick of a switch?
Everyone in that team are capable of playing quick, fluid and intricate football...its the coaching that improves that to the point where you can clearly recognise the difference.
I know I sounded pessimistic when I wrote that post. I just still don't understand why we don't try different things with the current players available when we know they are capable of a little change in play at least. Change has got to come from up top and gradually implemented into the players. I don't see enough tactical nous in the current manager to see that much of a different football even with better players. Needless to say I'd love to be wrong and laughed at.
This is also my biggest fear.
He didn't although he may well be looking to. It was inferred by some posters in this thread.
Oh right, it just seemed like a bit of a dig at Moyes, based on something he hasn't said.
Then he should be doing more to change that style.
Ha sorry, I get frustrated reading all this stuff about style. The way people talk about style on here, it's like it exists as some sort of independent force that governs the players' behaviour. The reality is that the players are creating their own style, and that people like Kagawa are doing little to change it.
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He said himself a few weeks ago that he recognises he hasn't been good enough when playing left and that he wants to work hard to get better at it. Thats the attitude you want to see, you could easily have palmed off his below par performance by saying he finds the position difficult, or some of the other shite you see thrown out to excuse him.
Then he should be doing more to change that style.
Ha sorry, I get frustrated reading all this stuff about style. The way people talk about style on here, it's like it exists as some sort of independent force that governs the players' behavior. The reality is that the players are creating their own style, and that people like Kagawa are doing little to change it.
I wouldn't disagree with any of that tbh. He's not got the individual brilliance of a Rooney to make an impact even when the team is playing badly and not suited to his play. But if the team is functioning well and playing good football he has the ability to add to it. Something of a luxury player if you will.
Ah, ok. I think he's better than that but fair enough.
RVP was a luxury. A 25 year old who has been player of the season 2 years running at his last club would be a great signing.
He might not have the individual brilliance of Rooney but few do, and those that do would cost well north of £35m
The new 'can he play in a 2 man midfield.'
Was this meant for the Mata thread?
I began replying to your post but then realised it made no sense
Yep, it is. The funny thing is that I do understand how people feel about the way this team just seems to freakishly suck everyone into the same ways of playing, the same weaknesses, etc, but certain views on style around here would lead to basically no progress if applied in reality. It takes the onus off the players themselves and is even making people cautious about signing someone like Mata.
Yep totally agree. Of course you also have to factor in the fact that most of the people who are obsessed with our footballing style know next to nothing about football.
Kagawa is still only 24. I see him at the heart of the young core of players that are Manchester United's future.
Why would we allow him to leave? For Gundogan? Nah, I can't see it.
Also if Rooney left the club, then having Kagawa would be essential, even if someone like Mata were brought into the club.
Why would we allow him to leave? For Gundogan? Nah, I can't see it.
Also if Rooney left the club, then having Kagawa would be essential, even if someone like Mata were brought into the club.
Am I the only one that thinks signing Mata would be beneficial for Kagawa's future at United?
Am I the only one that thinks signing Mata would be beneficial for Kagawa's future at United?
As much as I'd like to see it, I dont see us playing both Mata and Kagawa atleast till Rooney's here. After that, Yes.
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