Totally agree but wouldn't you also agree that perhaps part of the issue is one of trust? As that video showed, even though Kagawa at times was in clear space, he wasn't given the ball. Whenever Mata plays, this doesnt seem to happen as much and from observation, I think the players trust his ability on the ball more than Kagawa which is fair.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
I know where you're coming from Pogue. Honestly if Moyes wasn't a nice man, I wouldn't feel any pity for him.
I get what you're saying with Young, I think what's annoying others especially me is it seems to be the only option Young feels he has available. That's one of the things I really like about Januzaj. He'll have his head up constantly surveying the different options he has available to him. Not just crossing it to an area. The performance on Tuesday was so frustrating for a number of reasons but for us as fans, as long as we can sense of purpose and direction, I think we'll be more forgiving. Sadly, that game was anything but that.
Bolded part 1: Fergie is competent. Did you forget the times he let Kagawa freely roam? He also felt was beginning to adjust to English and shine in the following season. Unfortunately, that hasn't come to pass. Fergie is a genius but just because he couldn't get the best out of Kagawa doesn't necessarily mean he's not at fault. Nor does it mean that Fergie's incompetent. From what I observed(without knowing of Fergie's decision to retire at the time), we were trying to move towards a more progressive style and Kagawa was going to play a factor in that. His end of the season form showed that.
Bolded part 2: I haven't really heard him be compared to scholes. Where is this coming from? Curious. First time i've ever seen it.
Bolded part 3: But is Kagawa like those players? I'm not sure Mata has looked great on the wing for us. Anytime he's shown most of his quality, it's mainly been in central positions. Feel free to disagree with that though. Let's not forget with the players you mentioned, they all looked good in wide positions in a system that clearly suits them. Hence, why Kagawa looks better on the wing for Japan than he does for us. I dont think we need to build the team around Kagawa. He hasn't shown enough to warrant that but he hasn't really been given a run of games under Moyes to really prove that anyway. I think I and others feel he should be used as a piece of the puzzle. A step in a more progressive direction if you will.
Let's get one thing straight. Rooney and Kagawa are different players. So hypothetically, if Kagawa was to replace Rooney, I would hope we would all expect something different from him because despite his stats at Dortmund he approaches the game in a different way to Rooney. Rooney isn't your archetypal #10. He plays that position with a forward's mindset imo but still makes contribution in other areas (i.e. assists) In other words, I dont see Kagawa as a direct replacement for Rooney. In our current system, dont think we have a direct replacement for Rooney so if he left, we would have to adjust a few things because when he plays a lot goes through him.
@limerickcitykid excuse my long reply. Didn't mean for it to be so lengthy. Hope my post made some sense though. Cheers
Of course not but he was pushed out left more often, and that is when he didn't play as good. Moyes has let him roam and play centrally in the CL too and he's looked quite good. My issue is the countless posts saying Moyes is retarded and any manager worth his salt would get Kagawa playing when Fergie didn't have him playing that great either. Criticize Moyes all you want but keep it believable. There are plenty of things to complain about him but he isn't simply a buffoon since he isn't getting the best from Kagawa. I did say in my original post is his not so hot play excused a bit by being new to the league which is fair and I agree he'd have most likely improved if still under Fergie. Fergie did get better from him but it still wasn't great and Valencia still played more than him, Young played about the same and Welbeck played more too. I know he had a long injury but Young was injured for even longer. So Moyes isn't the only one who played Valencia and Young over him.
Someone a page back said something about him being like Scholes in his play goes unnoticed. Maybe it was only the one person who said it so it doesn't really matter.
I don't think he really is in style and definitely not in level, not yet anyway but the way people talk about him on here you would think he was. Maybe Mata has drifted inside more but he is being deployed out wide and is going all around the pitch and is involved in everything. I obviously don't know their specific instructions but Mata has come in and averages 20 more passes, 3 times as many key passes, more tackles and already more assists in 5 games. He's come in and outshone Kagawa already. If Moyes is telling Mata to drift so much then I don't see how he wouldn't be telling Kagawa similarly as he has roamed a lot in the CL matches. Even those matches weren't like Mata though. Mata is playing in the exact same system so whether Moyes is telling Kagawa to hug the touchline which I doubt as Kagawa often pushed inside then what's the excuse? People point to a good pass or two that Kagawa makes but Mata is playing 4 or 5 similar passes. People are wanting it to be built around him though with calling for Rooney to feck off to play Kagawa centrally you are getting rid of the main player to accommodate him. I wish he played a bit more and we did suit his style more because it gets the best out of most of the other players too including players like Cleverley who everyone loves to berate. I agree with you a piece of the puzzle and maybe potentially an important piece but many people are complaining and expecting him to be the main piece already when although he may not have had that long a run he hasn't proved it when he has got his chance. He had a long run from end of October to start of December and wasn't that great.
Oh of course they are completely different types of players. As you say though when Rooney plays a lot goes through him and he is our main player. Has Kagawa proven he is worthy of justifying Rooney being dropped or sold? Not even close yet a large section on here wanted it to happen.
No problem, I think mine is even longer lol. Getting a point across takes a long reply.
Think about how we struggled to get Veron to fit. I think if Fergie had stayed on, we'd be seeing a much better Kagawa. It seemed like SAF was being cautious with him due to his injury and it was his first season in England. You also have to keep in mind that buying a player in Kagawa's mould was something new for us and as we saw it was a shock to the current system. Rooney and Ferdinand were against the move as they wanted to stick with the tried and tested methods at the time. So even though Fergie didn't get the best out of Kagawa, I dont think it helps Moyes' case. To me just highlights how much catching up we have to do
On Mata, I think the main difference there is trust from the players. Mata is PL proven. You know what you're going to get and whenever he floats in spaces, players look for him. With Kagawa, it seems as if he's not engendered that same trust that Mata has. Credit to JM though, he's done alright since arriving. I think the interesting thing about Kagawa in this season is that he's played some very good passes but they were either the pass to the chance creator or the player ended up missing the chancee and it 's forgotten. It just hasnt really happened for him. I also think confidence is hindering Kagawa as well. Mata certainly has Moyes' full confidence and that can only help as a player to perform to your best. With Kagawa not so much but part of that is on him too.
On that "long run", did he start in successive games? If so, where did he start? If it was on the left, we already know the case with that. My feeling is, if you're trying to up a player's confidence, taking them out after one bad/average game isn't really helping. He played reasonably well against Swansea yet Young starts over him against Chelsea even though Young just came back from injury. With instances like that, I just dont feel we'll see the best of Kagawa while he's here and that's a shame.
I think the reason people have clamored for Kagawa in the 10 position above Rooney is because he's an actual 10 and you can tell when he plays in that position. I also think with the contract saga, alot of fans were ready to let Rooney go and try move in a new direction. They saw kagawa as part of that new direction. Who knows how that could have turned out? We'll never know
Another thing that I struggle to understand where does it come from. None of us know Moyes so obviously our opinion on him being a 'nice man' comes from the things we see on the pitch and press conferences.
Until now (in a short space of 8 months) Moyes has:
- consistently blamed the referees for our results
- blamed the FA for the tough schedule
- blamed the players and questioned their mentality
- being a big arrogant in most of the press conferences
- trying to get the impression that he isn't the fault for the things that are happening.
All these things in a short space of time and with having a blank CV. How does this makes him a nice person. It is the stuff for which Mourinho is portrayed as the greatest evil to walk on the Earth. Exclude the incident with Tito, and all other things which make Mourinho a 'classless bad person' are exactly the kind of things Moyes has done since he has become our manager.
Moyes has a ten year record of acting like a cock. There's a reason even the bluenoses don't like him.
I actually find him a lot more likeable since leaving Everton.
I actually find him a lot more likeable since leaving Everton.
Well, I haven't give attention to his interviews and press conferences when he was on Everton but at United he has done far worse than usually what Mourinho does in press in space of a year.
About your last point, well yeah, Woy was extremely likeable too.
Mainly comes from things I've read, personal anecdotes and things of that nature. Very boring on camera.
That could be true, but then you hear the same of stuff for everyone too. According to a lot of people who knows him, Mourinho is apparently a good guy. However he doesn't look so on camera. And Moyes too, he doesn't look 'nice' at all. He might be a great guy and donate half of his wage for children in Africa but we don't know that.
All of the debate about Shinji is comical tbh. He is 100% the type of player that the fans are crying out for and its as simple as that.
'He hasn't shown this or that when he's been on the wing and he lacks this and that when on the wing. He ain't as good as Ozil, Cazorla or Mata. blah blah blah'. Shinji Kagawa is an immensely talented footballer who we should be playing through the middle of the field - it is blatantly obvious!
Taking a few (what I deem to be relevant) quotations from a Guardian interview with Jurgen Klopp - entitled 'Dortmund Boss Klopp heartbroken at Kagawa's 'bit-part' role at United', will only solidify this further. That is of course a Caf expert feels he/she knows more than Mr Klopp??
Klopp told the Guardian: 'Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!
'My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.
'Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw.
(Full article available @ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...gawas-current-bit-role-Manchester-United.html)
Any person, not only on this Caf but, interested in football with half a footballing brain knows this. As a club - we need investment yes. We most certainly do not need investment in our final third section though. We just need a change. For me, interchange Januzaj - Kagawa - Mata behind Rooney and we are singing. You then have the likes of RVP, Welbeck and whoever else comes and goes (assuming that were not to happen, Young, Valencia and Nani?) Invest in the middle of the park and bring in two destroyers. If we can, get Matuidi. If not, have the United scouting staff go on wiki, search Ivory Coast or some good African team, locate their CM's and buy them all.
If things continue and Kagawa is let leave the club, we really merit the laughing stock label that has been applied to us.
'He hasn't shown this or that when he's been on the wing and he lacks this and that when on the wing. He ain't as good as Ozil, Cazorla or Mata. blah blah blah'. Shinji Kagawa is an immensely talented footballer who we should be playing through the middle of the field - it is blatantly obvious!
Taking a few (what I deem to be relevant) quotations from a Guardian interview with Jurgen Klopp - entitled 'Dortmund Boss Klopp heartbroken at Kagawa's 'bit-part' role at United', will only solidify this further. That is of course a Caf expert feels he/she knows more than Mr Klopp??
Klopp told the Guardian: 'Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!
'My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.
'Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw.
(Full article available @ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...gawas-current-bit-role-Manchester-United.html)
Any person, not only on this Caf but, interested in football with half a footballing brain knows this. As a club - we need investment yes. We most certainly do not need investment in our final third section though. We just need a change. For me, interchange Januzaj - Kagawa - Mata behind Rooney and we are singing. You then have the likes of RVP, Welbeck and whoever else comes and goes (assuming that were not to happen, Young, Valencia and Nani?) Invest in the middle of the park and bring in two destroyers. If we can, get Matuidi. If not, have the United scouting staff go on wiki, search Ivory Coast or some good African team, locate their CM's and buy them all.
If things continue and Kagawa is let leave the club, we really merit the laughing stock label that has been applied to us.
Furthermore, I do believe that Kagawa is the type of player that a team should be building itself around. How could he not be? The likes of Mata and Januzaj will have no problem adjusting to that style of game and I can only assume that Rooney would fall over in orgasm at the prospect of free-flowing attractive attacking football. With the squad that we have (in an attacking sense), I would have thought that a monkey would have been able to take some sort of an approach with this.
1. Proof? Or is this just more trolling?
2. The main reason many Everton fans "don't like him" now is because of delusional entitlement. Apparently he "held them back"...from what exactly? The odd, fortunate 4th place?
Couldn't agree with you more. Martinez has got Everton playing an attractive brand of football. Also from an Irish perspective, he can only be improving our National sides fortunes with his continued interest in our players.
In the end, I can not see the end product being much different to the past ten years.
Moyes salary was another issue for Evertonians. One of the highest paid managers in europe. From evertonians I talked to, it wasnt so much where they finished, but the realization of the potential in the team. Perhaps some of it is delusional entitlement but we have to remind ourselves that 1) we dont support everton 2) we dont watch all of their games.
So I'm sure there are things they see that we do not.
Yes exactly it is hard to fit all players in and some players just aren't suited to a team or a league. Gaeilge above says though that Kagawa has to play centrally and anyone with half a footballing brain sees it. Well Fergie didn't play him centrally either so does he not have a footballing brain? Don't get me wrong I'd handle him differently than Moyes but this continuous insinuation that just put him central and he'll instantly be one of the best players in the league is unfounded and ludicrous. He has never gave a reason that he should be played over Rooney or Van Persie and now even Mata deserves to play centrally before him. Something needs to be done but as you say he looks good for Japan on the left so let's try to get that from him for us. It isn't as simple as put him central he is so amazing.
Maybe trust is an issue but does he not train with the team everyday? Januzaj came into training, impressed everyone and gained the trust of the other players. If Kagawa is the world class player everyone says then should he not be dominating at training along with Mata and Januzaj? Again with the passes he does make some nice ones but Mata has come in and making double or triple the amount of those passes. Confidence is a big-part in all players I believe. I think it is a real reason why he doesn't shine as much. You see like Mata he'll go all over the place demanding the ball where Kagawa will drift around, pick up good spaces but doesn't demand it. Maybe language barrier or he is just timid but I feel you can tell he just seems a bit uneasy out there at times. He needs to be managed differently to make him more comfortable but simply playing him centrally isn't going to solve it which most like to claim.
In that month and a half started 4 CL matches, and 4 PL matches and came off the bench at half time in one. He missed the Cardiff league and Norwich cup matches in that time. So a good enough run I'd say. Transfermarkt says 4 AM and 5 LW, I have an awful memory so I don't really remember. Two of the AMs were in the league with Welbeck out left which I believe they play half and half centrally. He played in the Sunlun cup match 3 days after the Chelsea match so I guess Moyes was resting him for that.
There is a real obsession with number 10's on here and I find it funny how at Spurs it was the exact opposite. Fans demanded they play two strikers where on here everyone demands 1 striker and claims 2 strikers is pre-historic.
Fergie obviously has a football brain but that doesnt mean you necessarily know how to use a certain type of player. Like I said, Kagawa is a very different player than we've acquired.
I agree that sticking him in the middle wont transform everything for him but it's where he needs to play if we're unwilling to change our tactics. The reason I brought up trust is because even if you train well, there's also a trust that has to be built in game situations. I dont think the obsession with number 10's is a bad thing. 2 strikers/1 striker with CAM work quite well. It's a question of the players you have available to you and what's the best way to get the most out of your players.
Last edited:
I don't know why there is all this positive talk of Kagawa, he has been as big as a disapointment as Moyes has. He has been here two years nearly and has not performed anything like the hype he gets from some Utd fans. He is used as a beating stick for both Moyes and Rooney one for not playing him and one for basically producing consistant levels of performance for near enough 10 years in a poition Kagawa is a so called a god in. The fact is he has been given plenty of chances and apart from european games I can only think of one or perhaps two performances from him, he has not shown himself to be good enough simple as that. Now I hope at some point he will push on and actually get some consistant level but imo he will go the way of Anderson who while showing glimpses of a high world class level just ends up being a very incosistant drain on the wage bill.
A tad harsh Steve.
Everton often rose to the occasion at home, not much in the way of foreplay mind with an emphasis on pumping balls into the box.
As much as some overhype his potential and ignore the fact that he's sometimes been poor when he's played, it's true that his chances in the team have been limited. You can see why he's not getting a lot of game time in his main position when we've got Rooney there, although then the question can be asked as to why we actually bought him in the first place.
Moyes gets too much criticism for his treatment of him, but I can see why people are frustrated when you see someone like Young featuring regularly despite often being poor. Not that Kagawa has been fantastic himself at all; he hasn't been, but his chances have been limited and he's struggled to get a proper run in the team. Even if he's struggled to show it, it's clear that he does have some ability there and has good technique.
Well, he is pacy, has a great drive with the ball.
Moyes:
Always struck me as odd that Moyes who allegedly takes a keen eye on German football was not aware of the qualities of Kagawa regardless of whether he sees Kagawa in his long term plans. Biggest games of the season, Mata cup tied, Januzaj rested/slight knock, both Young and Valencia start, Kagawa on the bench.
Kagawa after Olympiakos away:
Depressing stuff.
After defeating Real Sociedad at home:
Always struck me as odd that Moyes who allegedly takes a keen eye on German football was not aware of the qualities of Kagawa regardless of whether he sees Kagawa in his long term plans. Biggest games of the season, Mata cup tied, Januzaj rested/slight knock, both Young and Valencia start, Kagawa on the bench.
Kagawa after Olympiakos away:
Depressing stuff.
Honigstein made a leaving out of knowing a bit about the Bundesliga and getting into the media before the hype last year. Mkhitaryan could play 8 and Kagawa could play 10 again, but the way Mkhi plays right now it'd be cruel to line him up anywhere else than 10. I agree with you that CAM isn't a great position of need. A Kehl replacement and maybe a new CB (I really like Ginter, also said that he prefers to stay in the Bundesliga) are much more needed than Kagawa.
I don't believe that Klopp would buy Kagawa for anything else than playing as a 10. So I really struggle see Dortmund trying to get him.
Some people still need to realise that, even if we put Kagawa into his natural position at this stage, he would still take a bit of time to adjust to the game, here. Remember, both Silva and Modric took some time to adjust to the English game (I think both needed 1 full season/changing roles in order to fit in). With Kagawa, Sir Alex initially played him on the left as he was getting bullied out of the ball in the middle areas (see Southampton at St. Mary's, last season). Sir Alex continued to play Kagawa on the left side in order to prevent him from being physically dominated in the middle. Still, Kagawa didn't play in a strict role as he was given the freedom to move around and get involved in the middle areas; however, our team was set up in a crossing system, hence why he wasn't amazing albeit decent and showing promise.
For this reason, Sir Alex believed that he would have a great second season as Sir Alex was looking to ease him into the English game like how Silva and Modric were. However, Moyes came in, and Kagawa had to start all over again with Moyes. If Moyes were to play him regularly through the middle, now, I don't think he'll make an instant impact, but he'll gradually get better and have more of an impact for us as time passes. Still, I'm speculating here, and we'll never know what Moyes will do with Kagawa, at this stage.
For this reason, Sir Alex believed that he would have a great second season as Sir Alex was looking to ease him into the English game like how Silva and Modric were. However, Moyes came in, and Kagawa had to start all over again with Moyes. If Moyes were to play him regularly through the middle, now, I don't think he'll make an instant impact, but he'll gradually get better and have more of an impact for us as time passes. Still, I'm speculating here, and we'll never know what Moyes will do with Kagawa, at this stage.
If Cleverley can play as CM......so can Kagawa
I know it isn't his best position.......but he isn't a winger and the No.10 position is Rooney's
I want to see him there for 1-2 games
I know it isn't his best position.......but he isn't a winger and the No.10 position is Rooney's
I want to see him there for 1-2 games
Moyes might just do that to finally bury him.
that's how i feel too but fans want him to perform instantly rather than ease his way back into his rhythm. He's caught in a catch-22 because he needs games to build up confidence and restore his rhythm but fans feel he doesnt perform well enough to keep starting him. I'd rather persist with starting him over repeatedly shoehorning young/valencia into the side.
This did to Modric a world of good, though. However, Modric was good in his long passing. I haven't seen that from Kagawa, yet, but what if he is good at his long passing?
Regardless, Kagawa needs to get a run of games to get himself back into his rhythm. However, at this stage of the season, if Moyes is still looking to salvage a Champions League spot, I don't think he'll play Kagawa and instead go for more established players in the team.
What? Cleverley is in our top 6 both winning tackles and intercepting the ball this season. Thats why he can play CM with his frame. Kagawa is absolutely fine tracking back from a forward or wide position but there's lightyears between that and playing in our central midfield that tends to play deep.
Except Cleverley can't play CM, I think he has clearly proven that this year on numerous occassions.
True. It's like people saying Welbeck can play on the wing because Sir Alex put him there occasionally. He can play there, but he can't put in a decent performance out wide. For what its worth, I think Kagawa in the middle would work better then most of our other midfielders, as he likes to get on the ball and play passes around, and he moves around a lot. He'd need a more energetic/defensive partner which we don't have, but it could work in most games against smaller teams, behind Mata and Rooney and whoever else.I havent seen Kagawa get compared to Scholes before myself (going back to the conversation that was happening on Saturday). But thinking about that did remind me of Scholes getting pushed out onto the right for England many years ago to accommodate Gerrard and Lampard. That was clearly an experience he didnt enjoy or thrive in and it led to his international retirement.
I think Kagawa could play better on the left but we're never going to get the best out of him playing him there.
I think Kagawa could play better on the left but we're never going to get the best out of him playing him there.
Scholes and Kagawa definitely have a lot in common:
1. Small.
2. Not particularly pacy.
3. Thrive in central positions.
4. Creative.
5. Excellent passers.
6. Excellent possitional sense.
7. A lot of their work tends to go unnoticed.
8. "Multipliers" who makes the other teammates perform better.
9. Good in many styles and setups, but especially good when there's lots of movement in the team.
10. Both would fit perfectly in Barcelona.
The main difference is that Kagawa has better stamina and technique, whereas Scholes is better at shooting and picking out glorious long-balls. He's also stronger and more aggressive, which essentially is why he's fit to play in CM at the highest level, unlike Kagawa.
Scholes is obviously the better player, but if he was given time in the right setup(i.e. more movement), then I think Kagawa could be our "new Scholes", except that he'll always remain a no.10, rather than get pushed back into CM.
So hes like Modric and Scholes now?
Theres a hell of a lot more to playing in central midfield.
Theres a hell of a lot more to playing in central midfield.
Clearly Moyes doesnt know how to use him and in a 442 i just cant see where he would fit in, unless its in that number 10 position.
Its quite sad because i'd love to see a front 4 of Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and RvP. I think the movement and interchange would be fantastic but Moyes is set on his wide men
Its quite sad because i'd love to see a front 4 of Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and RvP. I think the movement and interchange would be fantastic but Moyes is set on his wide men
- Status