Russia Discussion

A brief overview courtesy of Wikipedia on the chronology of events that highlight how a former organized crime figure with dodgy political credentials suddenly showed up at the Crimean Parliament with armed gunmen. This was quite clearly a carefully planned military operation designed to manufacture the facade of a legitimate referendum, as a means to annex Crimea - when infact it was a classic coup by gunpoint, straight out of the KGB/FSB playbook.

Following the Ukrainian revolution, on February 27 an emergency session was held in the Crimean legislature while it was occupied by armed pro-Russian forces.[4] The masked gunmen identified themselves as members of Crimea’s "self-defense forces", all of which are, according to Aksyonov, directly under his control.[4] After sealing the doors and confiscating all mobile phones, the MPs who had been invited by Aksyonov to enter the building, passed the motion in the presence of the gunmen armed with Kalashnikov's and rocket launchers.[11][4][12][9] The result was that 55 of 64 votes elected Aksyonov Prime Minister.[13] Various media accounts have disputed whether he was able to gather a quorum of 50 of his peers before the session convened that day, and some Crimean legislators who were registered as present have said they did not come near the building.[4] Others denied being in the city, and that duplicate voting cards stolen from parliament's safe were used in their name.[14] Opposition deputies have avoided speaking out publicly out of fear of reprisal, and due to threats received.[14] Crimean Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov was barred from attending the session.[14]

Under the Ukrainian constitution, the prime minister of Crimea is appointed by the autonomous republic's parliament following consultations with the president of Ukraine. The director of the information analysis department of the legislature's secretariat, Olha Sulnikova, has stated that an agreement exists with ousted president Viktor Yanukovych.[11] The coup-imposed president of Ukraine, Oleksandr Turchynov decreed the appointment of Aksyonov as the head of the government of Crimea to be unconstitutional.[15][16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aksyonov#cite_note-16
 
Having a basing agreement does not make an invasion of the hosting country legitimate. No matter how many times people try to say it does.



Allowing the annexation of Russian populated areas by Russia is inherently destabilizing for the region and obviously for the Ukraine.



Trying to deny there was an invasion when we all saw the military vehicles and Russian troops surrounding Ukrainian military bases is sophistry.



The Ukrainians say there are Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine.



We are now very close to a bloody civil war in Ukraine with Russia present in, actively supporting and giving military backing (including boots on the ground) to one side.



If there is a civil war it will rightly be laid at Russia's door because of its actions there. No amount of squirming around the issue can hide the facts here. Russia has involved itself in an internal dispute for purely territorial gain.
 
Danny1982 said:
Ok, fair enough. Russian action is a better way to put it than Russian invasion imo.

I want to point out something here. In Eastern Ukraine there are no Russian forces right now (I think we agree on that). However, a similar thing happened there as well. Protestors also stormed into the government buildings, and occupied them. That clearly shows that there didn't need to be a "Russian action" for what happened in Crimea to happen. When you get areas that voted in 80-90+% for Yanukovic, only for him to be toppled by non-democratic means, what do you think the reaction of those people would be?

And by the way, a "puppet leader"?! I can't believe you criticize what happened in Crimea, considering it's the exact same thing that happened in Kiev.

Now how much of what Russia did was outside the treaty is up for debate, but there is regardless of that a treaty that changes a lot in the whole situation, whether you want to admit or not.

Remember here that we're not discussing if Russia was at all in the wrong or not. Otherwise I can also use the US drone attacks to claim that the US is invading and occupying Pakistan every week. The treaty and the fact that not a single bullet was shot in the whole thing clearly makes the way some are trying to upgrade it to a "full invasion an occupation" and those stupid "Hitler comparisons" sound pretty pointless and silly.
Click to expand...

With the greatest of respect, I have no idea what you thought I was discussing, if not that.

I note, incidentally, that you're still unable to provide a semi-legitimate reason for the Russian action.
 
Anti-Americanism is a fine and welcome thing, particularly when combined with its parent emotion, anti-authoritarianism. But there's a difference between emotional anti-Americanism (which is basically based on ARGGHGHH FU*K AMERICA ARHGHG) and principled anti-Americanism (which is based on the principle that with great power comes great responsibility).

Can I suggest to anyone in here motivated by the latter that Putin is not your friend in this. He is not the poster boy for sticking it to the Man, or standing up for the oppressed - quite the opposite. I think a lot of people are going to find that the enemy of their enemy is not necessarily their friend here.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Having a basing agreement does not make an invasion of the hosting country legitimate. No matter how many times people try to say it does.



Allowing the annexation of Russian populated areas by Russia is inherently destabilizing for the region and obviously for the Ukraine.



Trying to deny there was an invasion when we all saw the military vehicles and Russian troops surrounding Ukrainian military bases is sophistry.



The Ukrainians say there are Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine.



We are now very close to a bloody civil war in Ukraine with Russia present in, actively supporting and giving military backing (including boots on the ground) to one side.



If there is a civil war it will rightly be laid at Russia's door because of its actions there. No amount of squirming around the issue can hide the facts here. Russia has involved itself in an internal dispute for purely territorial gain.
Click to expand...

You can't overthrow a legitimately and democratically elected leader and then complain about others breaking the law. Once you open that can of worms, you can't close it. I think, Putin finally decided to ignore US and EU, because he felt, and for a good reason, that they crossed the line when the opposition broke the agreement with Yanukovich. US and EU didn't even bother pretending there was anything wrong and backed the new leadership, which came as no surprise since it was acting on their instructions all along.

Putin pretty much got tired of playing the game by American rules. The fact that it happened in Ukraine, right at Russian doorstep, is what really set him off. There will be a civil war, but the responsibility for it is fully on USA and their European vassals. Once again, Americans interfered in somebody else's business thousands of miles away from their borders and have the gall to point fingers afterwards.
 
antihenry said:
You can't overthrow a legitimately and democratically elected leader and then complain about others breaking the law. Once you open that can of worms, you can't close it. I think, Putin finally decided to ignore US and EU, because he felt, and for a good reason, that they crossed the line when the opposition broke the agreement with Yanukovich. US and EU didn't even bother pretending there was anything wrong and backed the new leadership, which came as no surprise since it was acting on their instructions all along.

Putin pretty much got tired of playing the game by American rules. The fact that it happened in Ukraine, right at Russian doorstep, is what really set him off. There will be a civil war, but the responsibility for it is fully on USA and their European vassals. Once again, Americans interfered in somebody else's business thousands of miles away from their borders and have the gall to point fingers afterwards.
Click to expand...


On the contrary it was Putin's attempt to force Ukraine into acceptance of an inferior and unpopular trade deal with dubious and obvious political strings which triggered the protests in the first place. It isn't US or EU troops I see inside Ukraine trying to break the country apart, its Russian troops.


This is a Russian mess pure and simple they own this and all the shit that follows from the moment they decided to take Crimea by force.
 
Said it before, appeasement is not a good policy.
The EU and or the US should be doing more, imo. Not sure what, of course. Sanctions aren't going to work because it hurts the EU more.
 
utdalltheway said:
Said it before, appeasement is not a good policy.
The EU and or the US should be doing more, imo. Not sure what, of course. Sanctions aren't going to work because it hurts the EU more.
Click to expand...

If so much of the EU had alternative sources of gas/oil, sanctions could seriously damage Russia's economy. The entire economy is based on the profitability of the energy sectors since it is virtually the only independently viable industry. The government is able to subsidize other industries through energy profits. Manufacturing is dependent on energy companies for purchases otherwise they wouldn't function.

Since it's the spring, sanctions on oil/gas are more viable for the EU since demand will be lower.

Also, additional restrictions on people like Igor Sechin and Viktor Zubkov(Putin's buddies from St Petersburg and heads of Rosneft/Gazprom). Essentially all of the oligarchs are friends of Putin's from his time in St Petersburg and then later in Moscow before he became president.
 
Last edited:
utdalltheway said:
Said it before, appeasement is not a good policy.
The EU and or the US should be doing more, imo. Not sure what, of course. Sanctions aren't going to work because it hurts the EU more.
Click to expand...

Russia's economy is weak at the moment, so a combination of targeted from the US and EU would be quite disastrous for them. The trick would be to offset any inconveniences to the EU by finding an alternate energy source. If they can, Russia is fecked, as they will be deprived of a major source of funding, which when combined with the fact that their economy is already on the brink of recession, would be a massive hit.
 
sun_tzu said:
True but putin will know that the eu will need to be back ok good terms by winter so it would be very tough to introduce sanctions and not look like backing down if they are relaxed in 6 months or so
Click to expand...

At this point, I'm sure the EU leadership are looking at better long term energy options, as continuing to do business with a country that is playing resource nationalism with its neighbors is unsustainable. A combination of more shale exploration in Poland and other areas, more energy from north africa, as well as a long term plan to get LNG from North America could probably permanently reduce dependence on Russian gas and completely undercut Putin's ability to use energy as a weapon.
 
Raoul said:
At this point, I'm sure the EU leadership are looking at better long term energy options, as continuing to do business with a country that is playing resource nationalism with its neighbors is unsustainable. A combination of more shale exploration in Poland and other areas, more energy from north africa, as well as a long term plan to get LNG from North America could probably permanently reduce dependence on Russian gas and completely undercut Putin's ability to use energy as a weapon.
Click to expand...
I have done a lot of work in energy infrastructure and whilst deciding on a new strategy is one thing building new infrastructure (particularly new base load generation and transmission / distribution) takes a long long time. So no quick fixes for next winter (or probably the next ten) there im afraid
 
sun_tzu said:
I have done a lot of work in energy infrastructure and whilst deciding on a new strategy is one thing building new infrastructure (particularly new base load generation and transmission / distribution) takes a long long time. So no quick fixes for next winter (or probably the next ten) there im afraid
Click to expand...

Putin wrote, and plagiarized, his dissertation on energy infrastructure and its importance going forward for Russia. Conveniently, Crimea has a few ports that can be used for exports and have pipelines nearby.

From something I read elsewhere, I think the soonest the EU could get gas from North America would be 2015. I'm not sure how accurate that is though.
 
Sir matt said:
Putin wrote, and plagiarized, his dissertation on energy infrastructure and its importance going forward for Russia. Conveniently, Crimea has a few ports that can be used for exports and have pipelines nearby.

From something I read elsewhere, I think the soonest the EU could get gas from North America would be 2015. I'm not sure how accurate that is though.
Click to expand...
Getting gas into a port is one thing... getting it to power plants and getting energy out of power plants is another... especially with planning legislation in england - you are looking at circa 10 years to get any transmission line (under or overground - gas or electric) takes around 10 years
 
My understanding is Russia only supplies roughly 30% of Europe's natural gas. Surely, there must already exist pipeline infrastructure from where Europe receives/transports the remaining 70% ?
 
sun_tzu said:
Getting gas into a port is one thing... getting it to power plants and getting energy out of power plants is another... especially with planning legislation in england - you are looking at circa 10 years to get any transmission line (under or overground - gas or electric) takes around 10 years
Click to expand...

Yes, but the UK gets most of its LNG from Norway and Qatar. Most of Western Europe has diversified energy sources. It's not the case in Eastern Europe where much or all of their LNG comes from Russia. Germany probably has the highest dependence on Russia of the major nations, thanks to their former leader and now head of NordStream, Gerhard Schroeder.

There is existing infrastructure throughout Europe it just depends on how much more it could handle in terms of load.
 
There's some footage going around on Al-Jazeera showing a Russian Lt Col organizing the storming of a police station in Horlivka today. Probably on YouTube somewhere, and pretty damning if its true.
 
MOSCOW, April 14 (RIA Novosti) – The United States has not yet given a sufficient response to reports of a recent visit by CIA Director John Brennan to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Monday.

“We would like, in particular, to understand the meaning of these reports about CIA Director Brennan’s recent visit to Kiev,” Lavrov told journalists at a press conference.

“So far we haven’t received any intelligible explanations,” he said.

Media reports emerged Sunday that the CIA director made a secret trip to Ukraine's capital Kiev under an assumed name, met with senior law enforcement officials and personally proposed a special operation against protesters supporting federalization in the town of Slaviansk.

Ousted Ukrainian leader Viktor Yanukovych, who insists he remains the country's legitimate president, said late Sunday that Ukrainian special forces launched the operation after meeting with Brennan.

The CIA rejected the reports Monday, saying “the claim that Director Brennan encouraged Ukrainian authorities to conduct tactical operations inside Ukraine is completely false.”

CIA spokesman Todd Ebitz declined to comment on Brennan's recent travel itinerary.

Ukrainian security forces launched the operation to quash unrest in Slaviansk in the country's eastern Donetsk Region against demonstrators who had seized local government buildings. At least one person was killed and nine injured in the clashes, according to local health officials. Activists said at least three people died.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...1cc042-c3fb-11e3-9ee7-02c1e10a03f0_story.html

White House confirms CIA director’s trip to Kiev

By Associated Press, Updated: Monday, April 14, 10:07 PM
WASHINGTON — The White House is confirming that CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital over the weekend.

White House press secretary Jay Carney confirmed Russian media reports of the trip to Kiev. Carney says Brennan’s visit was part of a trip to Europe.

Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is accusing the CIA of being behind the new government’s decision to turn to force. But the CIA denies that Brennan encouraged Ukrainian authorities to conduct tactical operations.
 
Excellent news. A good way to offset all the Russian agents crawling around eastern Ukraine.
 
Clearly Brennan is personally running covert operations in Ukraine. Why else would he be there?
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/15/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA3E0EQ20140415

U.N. finds fear-mongering by pro-Russians in Ukraine

(Reuters) - Ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine have falsely claimed to be under attack to justify Russian involvement, a report by the U.N. human rights office said on Tuesday.

"Although there were some attacks against the ethnic Russian community, these were neither systematic nor widespread," said the report, which follows two visits to the country last month by Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic.

"Photographs of the Maidan protests, greatly exaggerated stories of harassment of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian nationalist extremists, and misinformed reports of them coming armed to persecute ethnic Russians in Crimea, were systematically used to create a climate of fear and insecurity that reflected on support to integration of Crimea into the Russian Federation."

The report, which analyses events up to April 2, called for an urgent effort to uphold the rule of law, respect human rights and end so-called "hate speech" - such as nationalistic rhetoric and advocacy of racial or religious hatred.

One right-wing group, the "Right Sector", which was involved in the Maidan protests in Kiev, had caused concerns for the Russian-speaking minority, it said.

There were numerous reports of Right Sector acts of violence against political opponents and representatives of the former ruling party, the report said. The group's alleged involvement in killings of law enforcement members should be investigated, it said.

But it said that according to all accounts heard by the U.N. delegation, fear of the Right Sector was disproportionate.

In Crimea, where a referendum on secession from Ukraine was held on March 16, there were "credible allegations" of harassment, arbitrary arrest and torture targeting activists and journalists who did not support the referendum.

It was "widely assessed" that Russian speakers had not been subject to threats, the report said.

U.N. officials had received "many accounts of vote rigging" in connection with the poll, it added.

Ukraine plans to hold a presidential election on May 25. The United Nations said it was important to prepare by ensuring free communication of information and ideas about public and political issues between citizens, candidates and elected representatives.

"This implies a free press and other media able to comment on public issues without censorship or restraint and to inform public opinion."
Click to expand...
 
naturalized said:
Anti-Americanism is a fine and welcome thing, particularly when combined with its parent emotion, anti-authoritarianism. But there's a difference between emotional anti-Americanism (which is basically based on ARGGHGHH FU*K AMERICA ARHGHG) and principled anti-Americanism (which is based on the principle that with great power comes great responsibility).

Can I suggest to anyone in here motivated by the latter that Putin is not your friend in this. He is not the poster boy for sticking it to the Man, or standing up for the oppressed - quite the opposite. I think a lot of people are going to find that the enemy of their enemy is not necessarily their friend here.
Click to expand...

Your target audience will not understand this at all, but well said.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Having a basing agreement does not make an invasion of the hosting country legitimate. No matter how many times people try to say it does.



Allowing the annexation of Russian populated areas by Russia is inherently destabilizing for the region and obviously for the Ukraine.



Trying to deny there was an invasion when we all saw the military vehicles and Russian troops surrounding Ukrainian military bases is sophistry.



The Ukrainians say there are Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine.



We are now very close to a bloody civil war in Ukraine with Russia present in, actively supporting and giving military backing (including boots on the ground) to one side.



If there is a civil war it will rightly be laid at Russia's door because of its actions there. No amount of squirming around the issue can hide the facts here. Russia has involved itself in an internal dispute for purely territorial gain.
Click to expand...
The fact that you believe that says it all about your objectivity and your "opinion", and your "facts".

The bloody civil war in Ukraine was triggered by the coup the US and EU encouraged. When you promote non-democratic transfer of power (in a democratic country), then you're inevitably triggering unrest and violence.

You're trying to give your "opinion" far more weight than it actually holds. It's just your opinion, and it won't change my opinion, and certainly won't change the facts.

Don't Kill Bill said:
We are now very close to a bloody civil war in Ukraine with Russia present in, actively supporting and giving military backing (including boots on the ground) to one side.
Click to expand...
This segment deserves its own reply.. Guess what you said in about what the US should do in Syria..
Don't Kill Bill said:
I mean any victory for the pro Iran Assad regime is at least an opportunity lost for the US. At the moment Iran are throwing Billions of dollars at propping up Assad and limited support for the FSA keeps them doing so. If you are a US policy maker it makes perfect sense to continue to support the FSA for as long as practicable. It also allows the US the moral high ground because all the deaths in Syria can be blamed on Iran for keeping Assad in power.
Click to expand...
I rest my case.
 
There is no bloody civil war in Ukraine. The vicious, nazis who are allegedly going to persecute the Russian-speaking population have done, what exactly? The military that moved into eastern cities being stirred up by Russian operatives and their supporters has not done anything that the Russian propaganda machine says that it will. No shots fired. They surrendered their APCs, handed over firing pins, etc. As long as the Ukrainians in the east keep drinking Putin's delicious koolaid, there will be problems. The obvious intent of the Putin regime is to foment anti-Ukrainian feelings in the parts that it wants to add back to Russia. That's why they've been screaming "Wolf!" for the last two months about the nazi extremists that will surely come to exterminate the Russian speakers, despite nothing of the sort happening.

Also, having elections does not a democratic country make. Yanukovych rigged elections once before and was working on it again. Of course the people should have waited for elections that they couldn't win. In 2004, once it became clear that he would lose, the Yanukovych machine, with the aid of Russia, started to do what Putin did in 2012. Bus people around having them vote repeatedly at different polling stations, altering results, etc. It's delusional to believe any candidate would win the percentages that Yanukovych (in 2004) and Putin (in 2012) claimed. Turnout in the east was magically up to almost 100% with Yanukovych votes in the 95%+ range as well. No, wait for elections and trust the man who had 127% turnout in one precinct.
 
naturalized said:
Anti-Americanism is a fine and welcome thing, particularly when combined with its parent emotion, anti-authoritarianism. But there's a difference between emotional anti-Americanism (which is basically based on ARGGHGHH FU*K AMERICA ARHGHG) and principled anti-Americanism (which is based on the principle that with great power comes great responsibility).

Can I suggest to anyone in here motivated by the latter that Putin is not your friend in this. He is not the poster boy for sticking it to the Man, or standing up for the oppressed - quite the opposite. I think a lot of people are going to find that the enemy of their enemy is not necessarily their friend here.
Click to expand...
Anti-Americanism is a stupid term. Nobody hates anything that comes from America.

Great power great responsibility? The US responsibility is to take care of its citizens. Period. Trying to be the policeman of the world is wrong, stupid, and will hurt the US in the long term.

I don't hate America, but I don't like most of the policies of the US government in the last few decades. Having said that, it's not something that's specific for the US, most great powers in the past fell into this trap, over-estimating its own greatness, which led to them thinking that they can and should control/rule the whole world, in one way or another.

There is no friend for the oppressed in this cruel world. Not Putin, nor the US. If you think otherwise, then you're deluded.
 
Danny1982 said:
The fact that you believe that says it all about your objectivity and your "opinion", and your "facts".

The bloody civil war in Ukraine was triggered by the coup the US and EU encouraged. When you promote non-democratic transfer of power (in a democratic country), then you're inevitably triggering unrest and violence.

You're trying to give your "opinion" far more weight than it actually holds. It's just your opinion, and it won't change my opinion, and certainly won't change the facts.


This segment deserves its own reply.. Guess what you said in about what the US should do in Syria..

I rest my case.
Click to expand...


I take pride in the fact the my argument has forced you to trawl multiple threads to selectively quote me. You wouldn't be doing so if I wasn't bothering you. Everything I've said as fact is fact and I stand by my arguments about Syria too. They are not exclusive of each other if you read them in context. Again this didn't start with the fall of the Ukrainian govt, it started with Russian actions which lead to that fall and continues with Russian actions today. Just the same in Syria, Assad was gone until Iran and Russia got involved and propped him up. Same actions same culpability. You just blame the US /west for everything because your arguments don't add up and are shown to be ever more compromised by your support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine territory. You don't have any principles except stuff the US /west. It's sad but there you go.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I take pride in the fact the my argument has forced you to trawl multiple threads to selectively quote me. You wouldn't be doing so if I wasn't bothering you. Everything I've said as fact is fact and I stand by my arguments about Syria too. They are not exclusive of each other if you read them in context. Again this didn't start with the fall of the Ukrainian govt, it started with Russian actions which lead to that fall and continues with Russian actions today. Just the same in Syria, Assad was gone until Iran and Russia got involved and propped him up. Same actions same culpability. You just blame the US /west for everything because your arguments don't add up and are shown to be ever more compromised by your support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine territory. You don't have any principles except stuff the US /west. It's sad but there you go.
Click to expand...
I don't need to go to multiple threads. I only took part in two political threads in this forum, but I knew that was enough to show you the hypocrisy in your positions.

Feel free to think what you want of me. And feel free to have any opinion you want about any conflict. But then don't act surprised when people start wondering why your position changes from one conflict to the other.

I have my principles, and I'm really proud of them, and you don't know anything about my principles apart from "if I criticize the US, then my principles are feck the US", which is pretty stupid. If you have any problem with my opinions then you can argue against them wherever you like. And by the way, you're not bothering me at all, and unlike some, I don't take things personal here.

Regarding what started it all in Ukraine, there is no doubt it was the coup. I don't even know what you're referring to there with "Russian actions".

I don't expect you to agree with me on the "Russian invasion of Crimea". I have made my position very clear, and I think the West knows that Crimea is a special case, that's why neither Ukraine, nor the West made any real attempt to "defend it". All what they're trying to do is prevent Russia from taking Eastern Ukraine, which I said long ago is a different story from Crimea.

In the coming days things will become clearer in Eastern Ukraine. In my opinion like I said earlier I think it will be difficult for Ukraine to hold everything (militarily) under control there, because 90% (!) of the people there elected Yanukovic, so it's normal that you expect them to be pissed when their elected president is toppled illegally.

And by the way, even Yatsenyuk himself knows the reality, and knows what the people there wants..

Ukraine PM offers more power to eastern regions to quell crisis

So let's not act dumb here and pretend that it's all because of "Russia" and "Russia's actions".
 
Danny1982 said:
Regarding what started it all in Ukraine, there is no doubt it was the coup. I don't even know what you're referring to there with "Russian actions".
Click to expand...
Russia has been meddling in the Ukraine for decades (well, centuries, really) to the point where the last Ukrainian government may as well have been announced by the Kremlin. It's literally the first thing most people read about when this kicked off if they wanted to understand the situation.

And of all the things you could accuse Kill Bill off, acting dumb is not one of them. Especially when you seem to have made up your mind without actually reading up on Ukraines recent history.
 
Last edited:
Silva said:
Russia has been meddling in the Ukraine for decades (well, centuries, really) to the point where the last Ukrainian government may as well have been announced by the Kremlin. It's literally the first thing most people read about when this kicked off if they wanted to understand the situation.

And of all the things you could accuse Kill Bill off, acting dumb is not one of them. Especially when you seem to have made up your mind without actually reading up on Ukraines recent history.
Click to expand...
Are you serious? meddling in politics? You think that is what started all the unrest we're seeing now? (By the way, I would always love to be educated and corrected if I'm wrong, but that "I don't even know" bit was clearly showing my shock that anybody would even think about using that as an excuse for what we're seeing now.)

Are you saying the US/EU didn't meddle in the politics of Ukraine? Are you saying that the US/EU isn't trying to meddle now in many counties around the world to change the regimes? Should we also hold them responsible for any unrest that comes out of it?

There has to be some reasonable objectivity here. You can say Russia played its part in the build up, just as much as the US/EU played its part on the other side, but in the end, what changed the scene wasn't the political meddling that was going for years (in both directions). It was the coup, and the way the elected president was toppled, that started all the chaos.
 
Danny1982 said:
Are you serious? meddling in politics? You think that is what started all the unrest we're seeing now? (By the way, I would always love to be educated and corrected if I'm wrong, but that "I don't even know" bit was clearly showing my shock that anybody would even think about using that as an excuse for what we're seeing now.)

Are you saying the US/EU didn't meddle in the politics of Ukraine? Are you saying that the US/EU isn't trying to meddle now in many counties around the world to change the regimes? Should we also hold them responsible for any unrest that comes out of it?

There has to be some reasonable objectivity here. You can say Russia played its part in the build up, just as much as the US/EU played its part on the other side, but in the end, what changed the scene wasn't the political meddling that was going for years (in both directions). It was the coup, and the way the elected president was toppled, that started all the chaos.
Click to expand...
Why did the coup happen? Hint: it wasn't a self-contained event. Coup's don't just happen.

And objectivity is fine. But it would absurd to claim that Russian isn't the biggest meddler in Ukraine.
 
RedSky At Night said:
This whole scenario just shows how ridiculous international politics really is. Russia can do what they like and the world will sit there and accept it. Slapping Russia on the wrist and tutting at them! It's mental.
Click to expand...

It would be far more ridiclous if a complete breakdown in trading between Russia and the EU (would make half the eastern bloc lose their power supply over night) or worse yet, an all out war, resulted from a Russian friendly area defecting to join Russia. This is proof that there is some sense.

Still could hit off here now though, its a tense situation with those russian friendly separatists in other parts of Ukraine testing the waters hard.
 
Russia's Top 10 Lies (according to the State Department)

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-russia-lies-ukraine-state-department-2014-4#ixzz2z7RXSr76

1. Russia Claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.

Fact: The Ukrainian Government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest. In the first week of April 2014, the Government of Ukraine had information that Russian GRU officers were providing individuals in Kharkiv and Donetsk with advice and instructions on conducting protests, capturing and holding government buildings, seizing weapons from the government buildings’ armories, and redeploying for other violent actions. On April 12, armed pro-Russian militants seized government buildings in a coordinated and professional operation conducted in six cities in eastern Ukraine. Many were outfitted in bullet-proof vests, camouflage uniforms with insignia removed, and carrying Russian-designed weapons like AK-74s and Dragunovs. These armed units, some wearing black and orange St. George’s ribbons associated with Russian Victory Day celebrations, raised Russian and separatist flags over seized buildings and have called for referendums on secession and union with Russia. These operations are strikingly similar to those used against Ukrainian facilities during Russia’s illegal military intervention in Crimea in late February and its subsequent occupation.

2. Russia Claims: Pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kyiv.

Fact: This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protestors to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence. There is evidence that many of these so-called “protesters” are paid for their participation in the violence and unrest. It is clear that these incidents are not spontaneous events, but rather part of a well-orchestrated Russian campaign of incitement, separatism, and sabotage of the Ukrainian state. Ukrainian authorities continue to arrest highly trained and well-equipped Russian provocateurs operating across the region.

3. Russia Claims: Separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.

Fact: The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region. A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7 percent) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia, according to public opinion polls conducted at the end of March by the Donetsk-based Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis. Pro-Russian demonstrations in eastern Ukraine have been modest in size, especially compared with Maidan protests in these same cities in December, and they have gotten smaller as time has progressed.

4. Russia Claims: The situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.

Fact: What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest. It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilizing the situation through their overtly threatening presence. There simply have not been large-scale protests in the region.A small number of separatists have seized several government buildings in eastern cities like Donetsk, Luhansk, and Slovyansk, but they have failed to attract any significant popular support.Ukrainian authorities have shown remarkable restraint in their efforts to resolve the situation and only acted when provoked by armed militants and public safety was put at risk. Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observers have reported that these incidents are very localized.

5. Russia Claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kyiv and established the independent “People’s Republic of Donetsk.”

Fact: A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organizations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a “People’s Republic of Donetsk” by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building. These same organizations confirmed their support for the interim government and for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

6. Russia Claims: Russia ordered a “partial drawdown” of troops from the Ukrainian border.

Fact: No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border. One battalion is not enough. An estimated 35,000-40,000 Russian troops remain massed along the border, in addition to approximately 25,000 troops currently in Crimea.

7. Russia Claims:Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.

Fact: There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine. An International Republic Institute poll released April 5 found that 74 percent of the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine said they “were not under pressure or threat because of their language.” Meanwhile, in Crimea, the OSCE has raised urgent concerns for the safety of minority populations, especially ethnic Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, and others. Sadly, the ethnic Russians most at risk are those who live in Russia and who oppose the authoritarian Putin regime. These Russians are harassed constantly and face years of imprisonment for speaking out against Putin’s regular abuses of power.

8. Russia Claims: Ukraine’s new government is led by radical nationalists and fascists.

Fact: The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February’s events, including former president Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. The new government, approved by an overwhelming majority in the parliament -- including many members of Yanukovych’s former party -- is committed to protecting the rights of all Ukrainians, including those in Crimea.

9. Russia Claims: Ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the “fascist” government in Kyiv.

Fact: Leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish as well as German, Czech, and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kyiv. Moreover, many minority groups expressed fear of persecution in Russian-occupied Crimea, a concern OSCE observers in Ukraine have substantiated.

10. Russia Claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.

Fact: Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80 percent in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11 billion in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords. Russia’s moves threaten to increase severely the economic pain faced by Ukrainian citizens and businesses. Additionally, Russia continues to restrict Ukrainian exports to Russia, which constitute a significant portion of Ukraine’s export economy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.