Well what Moyes certainly did to is bring in a staff that lacked experience at this level on the basis that he was familiar and comfortable with them. Now people are suggesting we have on our coaching staff people who lack experience coaching at any level whatsoever because they're familiar and we're comfortable with them.
United linked with van Gaal in the meeja
- Thread starter Erentz
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Well what Moyes certainly did to is bring in a staff that lacked experience at this level on the basis that he was familiar and comfortable with them. Now people are suggesting we have on our coaching staff people who lack experience coaching at any level whatsoever because they're familiar and we're comfortable with them.
Yeah, you're right.
But I think Van Gaal is a one man person as he manages and coaches his teams by himslef. More independent? Or maybe he bring assustants because he trusts them.
Ancelotti has Zizo as his assistant. Assistants are overreated in my opinion.
I don't see why Giggs can't be Van Gaal's assistant. But, if Van Gaal gives very good points in why he should bring in the the amounts of staff members, then he can get ehat he wants.
I Remember what happend when Moyes brought Jimmy Lumsden and
Steve round replaced Muelsteen and Phealen. Look what happen there.
We need continuity. People underestimated that term, what if Van Gaal does bad? Do we have to replace the whole staff?
You say that like it's unusual
That in a way is why I don't get why they didn't try that in the first place. No Moyes, ever.
Thanks! And I agree, I hope our ppl have that much sense and let LvG decide!
The first part or the second part? It would be a big change for us to have a DOF, not unusual in world football, but it is for us. The 2nd part, as a woman, not something I dream about.
In my opinion even the Giggs 'gang' know deep down that its too early for him to commit to such step. Its more comfortable for them if he works in the shadows, gain experience until the time is right and use others as scapegoats if shit hits fan. I wont be surprised that VG, being an old fox had already sensed what's going on and had shown reluctance in joining this circus.
The first part or the second part? It would be a big change for us to have a DOF, not unusual in world football, but it is for us. The 2nd part, as a woman, not something I dream about.
On the whole DoF thing, I've said before I'm uncomfortable with the idea of allowing the legacy of David Moyes to be that we abandon the set up that's worked so successfully for 20 years. I'd like more evidence than one incompetent driver to declare the car a write-off.
I can see what you're saying mate and i agree if we bring in a foreign coach things may have to adapt slightly, but personally i've always thought having a DOF sort of dilutes lines of communication between a coach and the board. For me a good CEO like Gill could basically cover a lot of what a DOF brings to the table.
I don't know about going the DOF route but if we are going to change the managerial model we use we should maybe do it slowly this time, as we seen this season too much change in a short time is probably not a good idea.
I get where you are coming from. I just worry that Giggs closeness to the players might cloud his judgement as to who should be got rid of. It almost need someone with no personal relationship with them to do that.
I agree with that.
I agree and this is a point so far missed from the debate. There should be a distance between manager and players.
I actually don't think letting giggs go manage another side is a good idea.
He'll end up like ole or Bruce.
Now before I continue, im not comparing giggs to Pep at all.
However, I've often felt that one thing that went toward pep at barca was that he was a club legend. He was instantly respected by the players. Giggs has that at OT he won't have that anywhere else.
Am I saying pep wouldn't have been successful elsewhere? No, he has shown enough to prove he knows what he is on about tactically, but I don't think he would have been AS successful, regardless of player quality, if that makes sense.
If giggs goes elsewhere he will have to build up respect, which in this day and age is bloody difficult. If he fails elsewhere it will tarnish his reputation here.
I think the best thing all round is to keep him as 'one of' the assistants, keep him at the club to take over after a little more experience.
For the record, the more I read about ancelotti the less I want him, and the more I read of van gaal the more I want him.
He'll end up like ole or Bruce.
Now before I continue, im not comparing giggs to Pep at all.
However, I've often felt that one thing that went toward pep at barca was that he was a club legend. He was instantly respected by the players. Giggs has that at OT he won't have that anywhere else.
Am I saying pep wouldn't have been successful elsewhere? No, he has shown enough to prove he knows what he is on about tactically, but I don't think he would have been AS successful, regardless of player quality, if that makes sense.
If giggs goes elsewhere he will have to build up respect, which in this day and age is bloody difficult. If he fails elsewhere it will tarnish his reputation here.
I think the best thing all round is to keep him as 'one of' the assistants, keep him at the club to take over after a little more experience.
For the record, the more I read about ancelotti the less I want him, and the more I read of van gaal the more I want him.
Do you expect giggs to understand the complexity of total football? Honestly?
Cheers. Sense.
Agreed. He's not ready, yet. However, he is not as far away as some people would make it out. Ideally, Giggsy would be mentored by someone but if it all goes wrong with Van Gaal then I would not be that frightened of letting him get on with it.
I don't think Giggs would ever dream of undermining Fergie. After all, what reason would he have?
I think Giggs is smart enough to realise he could learn a lot from van Gaal and having a second perspective on management should be a benefit.
Of course, LvG may not come and if he does, he may not want to keep Giggs as an assisstant. I definitely think there should be roles for Giggs and Scholes at some level within the clubs coaching setup though.
If it was as easy to create a top manager by combining playing medals with a period of mentoring, why doesn't every club just do this? It seems a rather basic formula for it to be quite astonishing nobody else has thought of doing it before.
Frank de Boer...?
Why would LVG want Giggs as part of his staff when plenty of media speculation has him as being a big part in the dressing room unrest under Moyes? If I was taking the United job I wouldn't want him anywhere near me. Giggs has no history of being a successful manager or assistant manager some people are really letting sentiment cloud their judgement here. Would all those who want Giggs as manager be OK with giving the job to Bruce/Keane/Hughes?
The reason this caused a stir was we were getting rid of proven PL title and CL winning coaching staff. That wouldn't be the case in getting rid of the current lot who've barely got a season of first team coaching between them.
Overall the problem was appointing Moyes in general. Every manager brings his own staff, it was just a case of a midtable manager bringing his dour football here, being supported by his dour midtable coaches that put a few people on edge. Unfortunately those doubts became a reality.
I'm definitely looking forward to how Van Gaal can get us playing and he'll need his own staff to teach his methods.
Well, you could argue that Bruce, Keane and Hughes have all proved that they don't have what it takes, whereas Giggs is as yet unproven and so might have the X factor.
My aunt Ruth might have the x factor.
But why isn't it widespread. The only way Giggs looks at all an appealing option is if we debase the importance of management down to knowledge of the club. To be successful manager takes a special and extraordinary person with specific personality traits and abilities. You can't just grow that or assume it based on playing career, or else Mourinho would have no right to the career he's head or even Alex Ferguson wouldn't have really got off the ground.
Managers emerge, I'm very uncomfortable with this idea we start to grow them in a petri dish. Beyond van Gaal I'm worried we may miss out on the next Mourinho, maybe a young coach who has burst through and made an impact on the world stage on the reasoning that "Giggs might be good too"
We shouldn't become a stereotypical US sicom Jewish mother who disowns her son when he marries outside the faith. We shouldn't seek to define ourselves by our past and this whole 'Class of 92' thing smacks of doing very much that.
But she doesn't have legendary player status, nor will she be mentored by a great manager
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for Giggs to be manager. I definitely think he should be retained in some coaching capacity though. Whether than be 1st team or youth.
I reckon Van Gaal doesn't want Giggs around at all and which is what's holding things up.
I really don't like this notion of van Gaal being manager for a couple of years while setting things up for Giggs. It makes it sound like van Gaal will become what's essentially a glorified caretaker/interim manager while we prepare the throne for a player who we don't even know will make a good manager.
Let's say within three years van Gaal has proven to be extremely successful winning the league and various other honours and wants to stay on at the club. Do we just let him go anyway because Giggs is the destined one?
Let's say within three years van Gaal has proven to be extremely successful winning the league and various other honours and wants to stay on at the club. Do we just let him go anyway because Giggs is the destined one?
I'll say it again, Moyes fecked us with this. He fast tracked Giggs into a first team coach, which now puts the next manager in a difficult position if they don't want him to be part of his own coaching set up. If he's moved to the youth team set up, it's seen as a demotion - outrage.
I've got nothing against Giggs, and I'd love to see him part of the clubs structure. But a manager's first team coaches should always be his choice. By the way, I didn't actually have a problem with Moyes bringing in his own coaching staff. I think a new manager needs to learn about his players and especially their personalities, and he needs people he trusts to help him with that. The big problem was that they (including Moyes) were all out of their depth.
Would having Rene and Phelan around make Moyes any less incompetent for the job? You can't have a coaching staff having to carry the manager.
I've got nothing against Giggs, and I'd love to see him part of the clubs structure. But a manager's first team coaches should always be his choice. By the way, I didn't actually have a problem with Moyes bringing in his own coaching staff. I think a new manager needs to learn about his players and especially their personalities, and he needs people he trusts to help him with that. The big problem was that they (including Moyes) were all out of their depth.
Would having Rene and Phelan around make Moyes any less incompetent for the job? You can't have a coaching staff having to carry the manager.
No but they would have helped expose him to alternative methods and maybe that could have helped.
Be interesting to know which side this was leaked from.
I'm guessing ours, and I'm also guessing we are using it as a delaying tactic. Quite a few reliable reports suggest woodward (whos decision it is) prefers ancelotti.
We may be using this not only as a delaying tactic to see what happens in next week or so, but also as a little pr excercise, in so far that we are showing to try to get giggs in the set up as much as possible which may cushion the board against criticism if the new manager doesn't utilise giggs.
Not good for the new manager though out of the blocks.
Just a feeling
You misunderstood me, my apologies.
Lets say Giggs was one of Atkinson's former players. A new manager comes in, he creates havoc,he sells a number of popular players and push United at the lower end of the EPL table. How would he probably react?
And lets say Giggs fails in his attempt to force the new manager out (ex SAF). How would the man react to such act of disloyalty?
I think that United are at a crossroad between choosing to stick to the old era (SAF) or else go for something new. Moyes was initially thought to be more of the same. Unfortunately for him he failed to achieve such of expectations forcing players/coaches to either remain passive or else work to force him out. I am not blaming Giggs and co for doing that. However you can't blame VG for not wanting to work with potential backstabbers.
If you ask me, the board should make a clear decision on whether they want the old guard to rule or not. If the answer is yes then they should appoint Giggs as manager. If not then they should allow the new guy to do what he wants. Micromanagement will only cause more grief
I don't think it's right that Fergie can come out and give his opinion whilst the recruitment process is still going on. He obviously knows Van Gaal is favourite to take over and by coming out and giving his support to Giggs, will be putting a lot of pressure on other members of the board.
We obviously don't know what's going on yet but maybe Van Gaal doesn't want Giggs waiting in the wings as he was for Moyes. Can't imagine it's the best of feelings to know that one of your coaching staff is being prepped to take over you whilst you are doing your job. He might want the job for 5 or more years, and the rumours of Fergie wanting Giggs in a few years have left him needing assurances. Nobody knows, but I hope to god that the board see sense.
We obviously don't know what's going on yet but maybe Van Gaal doesn't want Giggs waiting in the wings as he was for Moyes. Can't imagine it's the best of feelings to know that one of your coaching staff is being prepped to take over you whilst you are doing your job. He might want the job for 5 or more years, and the rumours of Fergie wanting Giggs in a few years have left him needing assurances. Nobody knows, but I hope to god that the board see sense.
The one question I would ask is this: If we had got [insert your choice of manager] last summer, would you have objected to him bringing in his people? We're talking about YOUR absolute number one choice, remember?
Possibly - I'd like him (Giggs) to be involved and don't see why he can't. LvG should know he needs some insider link to Utd apart from the CEO.
Feck it. I want Van Gaal to revamp our academy. As well as out first team.
Assuming its a manager of an elite caliber then no, he can bring in who he wants. Trouble with Moyes is that he wasn't an elite manager so it was in his best interest to keep around coaches who were part of the club's winning set up. But instead he brought his League 1 standard dross with him.
Though if its the likes of van Gaal, Klopp, Mourinho or Ancelotti...they can bring in whoever they want as far as I'm concerned, regardless of whether it was last summer or this coming one.
Someone made an excellent argument earlier in this thread (or another one, can't really remember) that Pep did not come straight from Barcelona as a player to managing. He spent some time in Serie A with Brescia and Roma. He also spent a lot of time with Bielsa discussing tactics. He is experiencing different culture and tactics, which shape his footballing philosophy. It also enable him to get out of his comfort zone. Pep was not sheltered in his football like Giggs, who only played for one club and know one coach.
I used to think that if Giggs managed other clubs it would be like Ole situation in Cardiff. He wont get many wins, and managing players in Cardiff would not prepare him to handles the planet sized ego of players like Rooney. But I think his reputation as a player will help him a lot in that case. Any player who came to United know exactly who he is and the stature he has in the game. All he needs now is to prove that he can handles the tactical side, rotating players, and handling the board room politics.
I'm actually interested to see how Ole responded his handling of Cardiff this season. If they got relegated, it'll be interesting to see how he'd do if he's kept by the owners. Ole is currently learning the ropes in Cardiff, and from what I heard, trying to implement a good playing style.
I used to think that if Giggs managed other clubs it would be like Ole situation in Cardiff. He wont get many wins, and managing players in Cardiff would not prepare him to handles the planet sized ego of players like Rooney. But I think his reputation as a player will help him a lot in that case. Any player who came to United know exactly who he is and the stature he has in the game. All he needs now is to prove that he can handles the tactical side, rotating players, and handling the board room politics.
I'm actually interested to see how Ole responded his handling of Cardiff this season. If they got relegated, it'll be interesting to see how he'd do if he's kept by the owners. Ole is currently learning the ropes in Cardiff, and from what I heard, trying to implement a good playing style.
A day before newspapers were reporting that Van Gaal wants to include Giggs in his staff. Today, that is the reason for delay. Newspapers will come up with new stories everyday. I think we will get him eventually as both him and we have almost no other options.
That's what I said: Your personal number one choice.
I don't think there's many who would object. And certainly not LAST summer.
Even if it wasn't my personal number one choice, I'd be happy for them to bring in whoever they want providing they're an elite manager.
For example I'm not keen on Mourinho being our manager, but if he was appointed tomorrow I'd have zero qualms about him bringing in his own coaching staff at the expense of ours.
- Status