Pep Guardiola's Bayern

[Ruht]

Pretty please?

If Badstuber makes a successful return the I guess there is less chance of Martinez getting games at CB. It's going to be hard for Guardiola to keep everyone happy this season.

Very much doubt Pep would be daft enough to get rid of Javi, it is blatantly obvious that he is one of the most important players to our team. The board won't allow it either. Apologies, mate!

As for your second point, this was said last season as well but most players got plenty of playing time. You can't plan for injuries and I think Dante will be the one getting less playing as the season drags on. Badstuber also needs to be eased in slowly, meaning Javi will get more than enough playing time this season. Hopefully he won't get injured, however.

 

[RooneyLegend]

We weren't inferior from a tactical point of view. Pep changed things, but they worked. I remember fairly well, how we played in Heynckes´s first year. Not bad, but also not fantastic and dortmund won the league. At this point nobody talked about heynckes as tactical genius, who is going to form one of the best teams of all time. The general consensus was that he is a solid/decent/good manager, who can manage the youngsters and stars, but who is lacking tactical finesse. Just one year later and he is a tactical mastermind? I dont think so. Glorification of the past at its best.
In december 2013 there was almost no expert/pundit left, who thought, that bayern declined.

The difference between 12/13 and the year before and after was, that bayern "was a team on a mission". That had nothing to do with tactics. Everyone was in top form and everyone played sole for the one goal to win the CL. At one point they started to believe that they are unstoppable. We still have a good team spirit, but its impossible to recreate this very special feeling in and around the team.

Pep made two decision, that deserves criticism.
1) Why did he change so much after the winterbreak? It hurt the team to change things up on a weekly basis
2) After losing the first leg against Real, he panicked and changed things to please other people. Pep gave up his philosophy, which resulted in a very bad lineup.

I doubt that he´ll do this mistakes again. Other things that heavily influenced our bad finish were just not his fault. There are lots of factors, that are random/hard to influence for a manager. In 12/13 all these things were going in our way, while in 13/14 a decent amount of things didnt (e.g. injuries; ribery out of form; winning the league way to early). As Dortmund fan you should know these things fairly well.

so what the conclusion? Criticism, that is primarily based on results, doesnt make any sense; especially in cup competitions. We played a very good season and Pep did a good job. 99% of the people who suggest otherwise are completely deluded.

Disagree with you on this one. It should've been clear to everyone in the 2011/2012 season that Heynckes was on to something special. Due to their early season form I predicted that they'd win the CL. The team was looking rampant up until they point they started getting injuries(mainly the bastian one) and the squad couldn't cope. If the job he was doing was in doubt, look no further than the tie vs madrid for assurances.

Nope, the difference between the 2012/2013 side and the 2013/2014 side is most certainly tactical. Most importantly on defence and the attitude in terms of breaking down 'parket buses'. Peps side pass and pass waiting for an opening, while the Jupp side was more aggressive and would put more balls into the box, whilst Taking more shots from range.

The important difference though is still how the team defends. Jupp's side knew when to press, when to drop off, when to give the opposition team space to play out and squeeze at the right moments. These are things that made them dangerous especially to other top sides. Pep's coaches his teams to stay up, keep a high line regardless of the situation and win the ball back. If that doesn't work out, well, spanking like the 4-0 happen. Its not the result that's shocking, its how much control of the tie that madrid had.

Bayern won the league early in 12/13, so that excuse has no wings. Ribery played poorly but not to an extent where it costs his team a 5-0 agg loss. That's a defensive issue, even at his very best he wouldn't negate such a difference. What major injury did bayern have in that tie?

 

[PedroMendez]

11/12 was indeed "special". Dortmund won the league very convincing by 8 points, beating us three times, including a 5:2 in the cup final. You can surely explain how this could happen, when our tactics were soooo good.


Of course Pep changed the tactics. I only said, that for 2/3 of the season - including the CL group-stage - his ideas worked great. In december, after winning the league and topping the CL-group, nobody criticised Guardiolas tactics. We were on our way to set a new record. Explaining the difference in performance between 11/12, 12/13 and 13/14 primarily with tactics just wont cut it. The main difference was a different mentality and random chance. Sometimes its that simple.

matches against Real: people read too much into single games. The tactical lineup in the return leg has been bad; still the first two goals were fecking set pieces. After that it was just over. I have no problem if you criticise him for his specific mistakes in this match, but generalising these thoughts wouldnt be reasonable.
What injuries did we have? Javi, Schweinsteiger and Ribery - our three most important players in 12/13 had all very underwhelming seasons due to permanent injuries. Non of them were at their best. Not even close. Schweinsteiger missed 28 matches last season and was never fully fit. Martinez missed 29 matches and the whole preseason. He was never able to adapt to the new ideas. Ribery missed 21 matches, had some mental issues after not winning the balon de ore and severe problems with his back since January 2014. Thiago, Pep´s marquee signing, missed over 40 matches last season and was completely out.

All this drama and doom and gloom is so annoying.

 

[Lagger]

I feel sick just reading this. Bayern fans would probably break Hoeness out of jail so that he could stop this madness if rumours about it appeared.

I agree. I was happy that Bayern finally stopped swapping coaches out like that. Pep gave me hope that he'd bring some continuation into the club, perhaps even stay as long as Hitzfeld. I hate having a new coach every 2 years. One season to get used to him, one season to enjoy and bam, another switch...

I agree, there are about 3-4 teams who will be 'expected' to win the Champions League this year. What would you see as a successful season for Pep ?

I was quite happy with reaching a semi final in the CL on top of winning the league and the national cup later. The only negatiive is the way we lost vs. Madrid, but not the fact that we lost itself. There can only be one and it's arrogant to assume we could subscribe to the CL title every season.

Tactically, I'd like Pep to evolve his tactics towards a more stable defense. Yes, they were really good but for some reason teams that hang back and then make a fast break seem to be the ideal counter for Pep's style of play. As Bayern themselves have shown under Heynckes. Disclaimer: I may be talking out of my behind here...

 

[JaffyJoe]

Exactly and one could easily argue that this Bayern side are equally as good as the Barca side he had (excluding Messi of course). That team was made up Spain's World Cup winning team also.

Excluding arguably the best player ever ?

Even in that case Guariola's Barca had a better starting XI and tactically they understood his system better.

Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta-Messi

Teams weren't getting near them for a good 3/4 years. Bayern don't have a dm better than Busquets a cm who understands the system and dictates the game as well as Xavi and they don't have an attack minded midfielder on Iniesta's level. While Messi is Messi. Guardiola has good pieces to work with but having no Messi or Busquets will stop him ever fully replicating the system.

 

[Balu]

Yeah, let's make final judgements about Guardiola's work after one season at a new club with at least half of the midfielders in the team always injured, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[KM]

Yeah, let's make final judgements about Guardiola's work after one season at a new club with at least half of the midfielders in the team always injured, that makes a lot of sense.

Obviously very hard to predict what Pep will do as he is one of the most unpredictable managers in the world, tactically but what do you expect to be your best XI this season?

 

[Balu]

Obviously very hard to predict what Pep will do as he is one of the most unpredictable managers in the world, tactically but what do you expect to be your best XI this season?

Difficult to say. If we assume that everyone is fit and capable to reach his peak form from the last 2 years, then I'd say:

Ribery Lewandowski Müller
Thiago Schweinsteiger
Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer

or

Ribery Müller Robben
Götze
Schweinsteiger Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer
​

would be our best line-up. However, there's a good chance that Ribery (sadly) won't get back to his best, Götze makes a step forward, then there are huge questionmarks about Thiago's and Schweinsteiger's fitness and Pep most likely will start Robben. In short, I have no clue, way too many quality options to nail down a fixed starting eleven.

I still expect that we'll play a 343 / 334 as our standard formation in the next two years, so something like:

Götze Müller Robben
Alaba Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Dante Martinez Boateng
Neuer

or (yes, the following is no joke )

Götze Müller Robben
Ribery Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer​

could be a very likely first eleven at the end of the season, depending on who's 100% fit, Ribery and Lewandowski have pretty much the same chance to start as Götze, Müller and Robben. There's also the interesting question about Alaba maybe becoming a regular starter in midfield with Bernat playing leftback/left wingback. What I can't see happening is Lahm regular starting in midfield with the squad we have. Rafinha is clearly our weakest fullback and being forced to start him with no other rightback/right wingback in the squad while excellent leftbacks or midfielders are on the bench would be insane. Unless we buy a new rightback, Lahm will play there again.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Difficult to say. If we assume that everyone is fit and capable to reach his peak form from the last 2 years, then I'd say:

Ribery Lewandowski Müller
Thiago Schweinsteiger
Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer

or

Ribery Müller Robben
Götze
Schweinsteiger Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer
​

would be our best line-up. However, there's a good chance that Ribery (sadly) won't get back to his best, Götze makes a step forward, then there are huge questionmarks about Thiago's and Schweinsteiger's fitness and Pep most likely will start Robben. In short, I have no clue, way too many quality options to nail down a fixed starting eleven.

I still expect that we'll play a 343 / 334 as our standard formation in the next two years, so something like:

Götze Müller Robben
Alaba Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Dante Martinez Boateng
Neuer

or (yes, the following is no joke )

Götze Müller Robben
Ribery Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer​

could be a very likely first eleven at the end of the season, depending on who's 100% fit, Ribery and Lewandowski have pretty much the same chance to start as Götze, Müller and Robben. There's also the interesting question about Alaba maybe becoming a regular starter in midfield with Bernat playing leftback/left wingback. What I can't see happening is Lahm regular starting in midfield with the squad we have. Rafinha is clearly our weakest fullback and being forced to start him with no other rightback/right wingback in the squad while excellent leftbacks or midfielders are on the bench would be insane. Unless we buy a new rightback, Lahm will play there again.

A bayern side without Robben in the first 11 when he's fully fit just won't happen. He's bayerns best player.

 

[bishblaize]

A bayern side without Robben in the first 11 when he's fully fit just won't happen. He's bayerns best player.

As much as Guardiola loves a ball retaining midfielder, he'll know that Robben's directness gives variety to their play they can't do without.

 

[Balu]

Robben is a starter in 3 of the 4 possible formations I posted above. It's quite clear that he's really important. However, I don't think he's more important to the team than Ribery or Müller were in the past 2 years and he's not the only one who gives us directness. I'd actually argue that his usual one man show against teams, that park the bus very well, is way less efficient than Müller's off the ball movement, Ribery's creativity and what Lewandowski can offer as a striker in terms of hold up play and physicality inside the box. All of them will play an important role, but you'll rarely get to see the World Cup Robben for Bayern with the way we and our opponents usually line up.

 

[PedroMendez]

my prediction is

Ribery(Götze/Shaqiri) - Lewandowski(Müller) - Robben (Müller)
Thiago(Götze/Shaqiri) - Schweinsteiger (Alaba/PEH)
Lahm (Schweinsteiger/Javi)
Alaba (bernat)- Javi/Badstuber (Dante) - Boateng - PEH/Rafinha/Rode
Neuer
​

maybe Lahm plays as fullback again and Schweinsteiger plays as #6 (if Pep watched the wc). I wouldnt rule it out, but it would surprise me. I doubt that we´ll see Javi in this position again.

 

[Balu]

@PedroMendez
do you really think that Hojbjerg is suited to a fullback role? I did like him in that wide midfield role, but as a fullback in a back four? Not sure about that at all, Martinez' excellent performance as the central defender in a back three made it possible to play him as a wide midfielder in a 3-4-3, he wasn't a wingback though. I'd also say it's mental if we buy Bernat solely as cover for Alaba and plan with Hojbjerg, Rafinha and Rode as our 3 rightbacks. If that's really the plan, someone should slap Sammer and Pep really hard. Doubt that's the case after the comments that Alaba will get games in midfield though.

And I still expect Shaqiri to leave, it's just stupid if he wants to stay and I can't see us keeping him if he asks to leave. Unless there's a massive injury crisis with our attacking players, he won't get more playing time than last season and that's not enough for him to develop. He needs to go for his own sake.

 

[anchan1989]

Apparently Kroos has said that Real Madrid are a step up from Bayern. That surely won't go down well in Munich.

He said; "Its the biggest club in the world and so a step up."
If you think of a Nr 1 level then he is right. All ok for me. He said what you say at these moments.
Cant understand some Bayernposts here. He is a fine guy and a top pro. Bayern meant much to him but of course; he came with 16. Was some time in Leverkusen and so on.
He probably never had the closest relationship to Bayern but that is/was his thing.
He did his job, played great for years and was a teamplayer. All fine for me.
Good luck Toni.

I can also see a 3men backline. We have the players to control the midfield totally with one man more.

 

[Kallech33]

@PedroMendez
do you really think that Hojbjerg is suited to a fullback role? I did like him in that wide midfield role, but as a fullback in a back four? Not sure about that at all, Martinez' excellent performance as the central defender in a back three made it possible to play him as a wide midfielder in a 3-4-3, he wasn't a wingback though. I'd also say it's mental if we buy Bernat solely as cover for Alaba and plan with Hojbjerg, Rafinha and Rode as our 3 rightbacks. If that's really the plan, someone should slap Sammer and Pep really hard. Doubt that's the case after the comments that Alaba will get games in midfield though.

And I still expect Shaqiri to leave, it's just stupid if he wants to stay and I can't see us keeping him if he asks to leave. Unless there's a massive injury crisis with our attacking players, he won't get more playing time than last season and that's not enough for him to develop. He needs to go for his own sake.

Didn't he want to leave but Rummenigge and Sammer didn't allow him to leave?
Edit: At least that's what I read some time ago in the ARD or ZDF teletext IIRC.

 

[Balu]

Didn't he want to leave but Rummenigge and Sammer didn't allow him to leave?

Wouldn't read too much into comments like that early in the transfer window. I'm pretty sure that we would sell him if there's a good offer on the table and expect it to happen the next weeks. Maybe we're waiting to see how Ribery is doing after his injury and if everyone who played at the World Cup is fit and ready to start the new season.

 

[PedroMendez]

@PedroMendez
do you really think that Hojbjerg is suited to a fullback role? I did like him in that wide midfield role, but as a fullback in a back four? Not sure about that at all, Martinez' excellent performance as the central defender in a back three made it possible to play him as a wide midfielder in a 3-4-3, he wasn't a wingback though. I'd also say it's mental if we buy Bernat solely as cover for Alaba and plan with Hojbjerg, Rafinha and Rode as our 3 rightbacks. If that's really the plan, someone should slap Sammer and Pep really hard. Doubt that's the case after the comments that Alaba will get games in midfield though.

And I still expect Shaqiri to leave, it's just stupid if he wants to stay and I can't see us keeping him if he asks to leave. Unless there's a massive injury crisis with our attacking players, he won't get more playing time than last season and that's not enough for him to develop. He needs to go for his own sake.

Shaqiri might leave. It would be the right decision for him and wouldnt really hurt us. Green could get a couple of minutes. He is really close to the first team. Dunno if it happens or not, but it wont make a big difference.

My reasoning is fairly simple. Last season Pep used/tested Javi two times as #6 and it was a disaster. He is just not comfortable enough with the ball (compared to Lahm/Schweinsteiger). Furthermore we would also lack a CB, if we plan with Martinez as holding player.
So Schweinsteiger and Lahm remain for the #6. Pep always fancied Lahm as holding midfielder, while he used Schweinsteiger more as b2b midfielder. This might change, if Schweinsteiger is 100% fit, but I wouldnt bet my life on it. Lahm´s control of the ball reminds me of spanish players (quick footwork and turns) while Schweinsteiger is more like Ballack. Both can hold onto the ball very well, but its different. Anyway....having just one player for this crucial positions would be very risky anyway; especially because Bastian is injury prone. So even if he is pep´s first choice, Lahm will have to cover for him quite a bit.
Alaba will get time in midfield, but he wont be a starter. Schweinsteiger, Thiago or Lahm will miss enough matches.

That just leaves Rafinhia, Rode and eventually PEH as left-backs. I could make an argument for (or against....) any of those three. Rafinhia could play this role in a traditional way, while PEH could interpreted it differently (you surely remember this weird formation with Lahm and Alaba as additional midfielder....).
It doesnt really add up without a "creative solution", so someone like PEH could get a chance.

oh, and I really dont think that we play with a back 3/5 with three CBs on a regular basis. If that happens I might just forget everything that I know about football.


Personally I hope that Lahm plays as right back, Schweinsteiger as #6 and Alaba/PEH/Götze compete for the spot next to Thiago.

 

[Balu]

oh, and I really dont think that we play with a back 3/5 with three CBs on a regular basis. If that happens I might just forget everything that I know about football.

Yeah, I expect one of those 3 to be a fullback more often than not actually. Not sure if that makes it better or worse .

 

[PedroMendez]

I saw your last lineup. I just dont think that this is actually a 343, if you use these players.



Is there a big difference between those two?

Götze Müller Robben
Ribery Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer
​

Ribery - Müller - Robben
Götze - Thiago
Schweinsteiger
Alaba - Javi - Boateng - Lahm
Neuer
​

 

[Balu]

I saw your last lineup. I just dont think that this is actually a 343, if you use these players.



Is there a big difference between those two?

Götze Müller Robben
Ribery Thiago Schweinsteiger Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer
​

Ribery - Müller - Robben
Götze - Thiago
Schweinsteiger
Alaba - Javi - Boateng - Lahm
Neuer
​

Yeah, it is. Their average positions on the pitch should be different and their roles would also be different. Alaba is much more defensive in the first formation while Schweinsteiger more a CM than the DM he's playing in the 2nd. Of course those formations are always flexible, we've seen the WM formation last season a few times as well despite it looking like a 433 on paper at first.

 

[PedroMendez]

just asking because using Ribery/Lahm as wide players would result in a very asymmetrical formation. They would never play the same role which obviously affects the whole team; especially Boateng and Alaba. Furthermore I dont think that Alaba would be a great center-half. Using him in a back3 would limit his offensive impact and expose his defensive weaknesses. His positional play and his tackle are actually not that great; he is a good fullback because of his work-rate, his tenacity his athleticism and his ability to recover; not because he is a natural defender.

A back3 is also not really a formation that supports possession based football in the last 1/3.

I would be really surprised if Pep makes these kind of changes.

 

[RooneyLegend]

11/12 was indeed "special". Dortmund won the league very convincing by 8 points, beating us three times, including a 5:2 in the cup final. You can surely explain how this could happen, when our tactics were soooo good.


Of course Pep changed the tactics. I only said, that for 2/3 of the season - including the CL group-stage - his ideas worked great. In december, after winning the league and topping the CL-group, nobody criticised Guardiolas tactics. We were on our way to set a new record. Explaining the difference in performance between 11/12, 12/13 and 13/14 primarily with tactics just wont cut it. The main difference was a different mentality and random chance. Sometimes its that simple.

matches against Real: people read too much into single games. The tactical lineup in the return leg has been bad; still the first two goals were fecking set pieces. After that it was just over. I have no problem if you criticise him for his specific mistakes in this match, but generalising these thoughts wouldnt be reasonable.
What injuries did we have? Javi, Schweinsteiger and Ribery - our three most important players in 12/13 had all very underwhelming seasons due to permanent injuries. Non of them were at their best. Not even close. Schweinsteiger missed 28 matches last season and was never fully fit. Martinez missed 29 matches and the whole preseason. He was never able to adapt to the new ideas. Ribery missed 21 matches, had some mental issues after not winning the balon de ore and severe problems with his back since January 2014. Thiago, Pep´s marquee signing, missed over 40 matches last season and was completely out.

All this drama and doom and gloom is so annoying.

If you couldn't see that there was a rosy future in store for bayern then I don't know what to say. Despite the loses to dortmund, the football being played was of a very high level. Those matches vs dortmund were highly competitive. Had it not been for bastian's injury that torpedoed the season bayern might've won the title. Anyways as I said, the level of player bayern displayed in the CL was a clear indication of what was to follow if certain changes were made.

Well, I've always been critical of guardiola's tactics. It was clear that despite the team's success they'd been vulnerable to the same tactics that barca had been vulnerable to. Something that Jupp's bayern wasn't. Very important considering that most teams are bound to approach matches vs them in such a way. Then there's the frailties at set pieces, another thing pep's teams couldn't do. However even after going down 2-0, we say bayern do nothing that was going to put madrid in danger, infact that was the case throughout the tie.

The real madrid tie is very important. Its the biggest match that bayern played throughout the season, in the most important club competition in the world and Bayern was humiliated 5-0. Without them getting 5 chances let alone scoring 5 goals.

I asked what major injuries bayern had in that tie? Not the whole season. As far as I can gather most of bayerns star players were fit and ready to go. He chose to play the worlds best right back in midfield instead of arguably the worlds best defensive mid.

In truth, its not really doom and gloom. Bayern will remain highly competitive in the top level of the sport although I'd say his tactical changes are going to hold bayern back from dominating the european scene.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Robben is a starter in 3 of the 4 possible formations I posted above. It's quite clear that he's really important. However, I don't think he's more important to the team than Ribery or Müller were in the past 2 years and he's not the only one who gives us directness. I'd actually argue that his usual one man show against teams, that park the bus very well, is way less efficient than Müller's off the ball movement, Ribery's creativity and what Lewandowski can offer as a striker in terms of hold up play and physicality inside the box. All of them will play an important role, but you'll rarely get to see the World Cup Robben for Bayern with the way we and our opponents usually line up.

Robben should be on every one of the line ups that bayern could produce. Since his return in the closing stages of the 2012/2013 season I'd say he's been better than both muller and ribery, even against teams that park the bus. His one man show is scary and disorganises even the most organised of defences. Creativity Is almost moot against those teams and the spaces that muller creates with his movement becomes nullified against organised deep defences. Against chelsea in the 2011/2012 CL final robben was easily bayerns biggest threat and his only problem was that shots that normal hit the target from him just weren't on point that day. Mind you, he doesn't have his shoot on sight policy anymore and links much better with the fullback.

IMO the bayern line up should be:
------------Lewa------------
Muller---Gotze---Robben
---Schweini-Martinez---
Alaba-badst-boateng-Lahm
------------Neuer----------------

Knowing pep it'll probably be:
-------------Lewa---------------
Ribery------------------Robben
---------Thiago--Gotze--------
------------Schweini------------
Alaba-badst-Boateng-Lahm
--------------Neuer--------------

Robben benching is unimaginable.

 

[Ruht]

Götze in the middle, behind Lewa is a must for me. Really hoping they share as good a partnership as in Dortmund.

As for the lineups, it's all hit and miss really. The possibilities are quite a lot. Also, we are talking about Pep here, extremely hard to figure him out. Personally, I'd love to see more of that 3-4-3 we saw against Dortmund in the Pokal final. Really liked the look of it and I think it could work for lots of matches. Though, it very much depends on who is fit to play as well. What Balu posted above is probably close to what we might see at the start of the season.

 

[Blackwidow]

Robben should be on every one of the line ups that bayern could produce. Since his return in the closing stages of the 2012/2013 season I'd say he's been better than both muller and ribery, even against teams that park the bus. His one man show is scary and disorganises even the most organised of defences. Creativity Is almost moot against those teams and the spaces that muller creates with his movement becomes nullified against organised deep defences. Against chelsea in the 2011/2012 CL final robben was easily bayerns biggest threat and his only problem was that shots that normal hit the target from him just weren't on point that day. Mind you, he doesn't have his shoot on sight policy anymore and links much better with the fullback.

IMO the bayern line up should be:
------------Lewa------------
Muller---Gotze---Robben
---Schweini-Martinez---
Alaba-badst-boateng-Lahm
------------Neuer----------------

Knowing pep it'll probably be:
-------------Lewa---------------
Ribery------------------Robben
---------Thiago--Gotze--------
------------Schweini------------
Alaba-badst-Boateng-Lahm
--------------Neuer--------------

Robben benching is unimaginable.

Müller benching is unbelievable, too - especially as you loose if you bench him... - that is the golden rule...
(ask Heynckes and Löw)

And I doubt that Götze is already on the level to permanently be on the level of Robbery and Müller. It did not look like this this season and not in the World Cup. If I summarize this season he only worked well as a starter against decent opposition when he was fielded with Robben and Müller - or if he came in as substitute.

And - we are not Dortmund. Our opponents do not work like the opponents of Dortmund in 2011/12/13. Götze in a no. 10 role has worked only good in two matches against Hamburg - that probably says everything. Neither in the national team nor at Bayern he assisted as much as he did in Dortmund. It seems that the more strict system of Dortmund where the running ways are a lot more studied helped him a lot.

 

[Balu]

Robben benching is unimaginable.

It's pretty easy actually. I agree that individually Robben is our best player. He can be a one man attack like none of the others can be, but in the past 2 years, we very rarely played our best football with Robben being the main man in attack. Even when he scored all his crucial goals against Dortmund, he usually wasn't the standout performer, definitely not the one all the attacks went through. Getting the best out of Robben wasn't the reason why we went on that incredible record breaking run for 18 months and I'd call both Ribery and Müller significantly more important attacking players in our treble winning team than him. Benching one of them if both are fully fit and able to perform at their peak level (which is a huge questionmark in Ribery's case) is a no go. I don't care what that means for Lewandowski, Götze or Robben.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Müller benching is unbelievable, too - especially as you loose if you bench him... - that is the golden rule...
(ask Heynckes and Löw)

And I doubt that Götze is already on the level to permanently be on the level of Robbery and Müller. It did not look like this this season and not in the World Cup. If I summarize this season he only worked well as a starter against decent opposition when he was fielded with Robben and Müller - or if he came in as substitute.

And - we are not Dortmund. Our opponents do not work like the opponents of Dortmund in 2011/12/13. Götze in a no. 10 role has worked only good in two matches against Hamburg - that probably says everything. Neither in the national team nor at Bayern he assisted as much as he did in Dortmund. It seems that the more strict system of Dortmund where the running ways are a lot more studied helped him a lot.

He had a slow start to the season last time around due to injuries. When he came back he was competing against established bayern superstars, it was never gonna be easy to usurp them. Kroos being sold opens up and opportunity for him to established himself in the side. Another thing is that his striker will be coming, he'll have clear chemistry with him. He's had only a handful of starts in the attacking mid position for bayern, so there really isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that he won't cut it there for bayern.

As we saw last season Pep sees muller as a expendable member on his team. Muller just isn't the type of player that pep tends to like. He just isn't as comfortable on the ball as pep likes his players to be.

 

[Balu]

He had a slow start to the season last time around due to injuries. When he came back he was competing against established bayern superstars, it was never gonna be easy to usurp them. Kroos being sold opens up and opportunity for him to established himself in the side. Another thing is that his striker will be coming, he'll have clear chemistry with him. He's had only a handful of starts in the attacking mid position for bayern, so there really isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that he won't cut it there for bayern.

As we saw last season Pep sees muller as a expendable member on his team. Muller just isn't the type of player that pep tends to like. He just isn't as comfortable on the ball as pep likes his players to be.

You probably would have said the same thing after the 2011/12 season when Heynckes benched Müller in the CL knockout games and only started him in the final because of all the suspensions we had. He figured out that Robben is the expendable one in his second season though. Pretty sure you're wrong and the new contract Müller signed a few weeks ago kinda proves it.

 

[RooneyLegend]

It's pretty easy actually. I agree that individually Robben is our best player. He can be a one man attack like none of the others can be, but in the past 2 years, we very rarely played our best football with Robben being the main man in attack. Even when he scored all his crucial goals against Dortmund, he usually wasn't the standout performer, definitely not the one all the attacks went through. Getting the best out of Robben wasn't the reason why we went on that incredible record breaking run for 18 months and I'd call both Ribery and Müller significantly more important attacking players in our treble winning team than him. Benching one of them if both are fully fit and able to perform at their peak level (which is a huge questionmark in Ribery's case) is a no go. I don't care what that means for Lewandowski, Götze or Robben.

There isn't a player who all the attacks go through at bayern, that's were the strength of the team comes from. There's no main man so to speak. Its an extremely balanced side with threats all over. He was one of the most impressive players in that run and in the big games the single most impressive one. He was better than ribbery and muller in the latter stages of the CL in 2012/2013 although they themselves played quite well. Since kroos' injury vs arsenal he's been nothing short of immense and on the form he's carried, there's no better RW in the world, let alone at bayern. Honestly, you're just way off the mark with these assertions and wouldn't be surprised if you were one of those that thought pep joining bayern would threaten his spot in the team. Muller and Ribber more significantly more important than him in that run in? Not a chance.

 

[Blackwidow]

There isn't a player who all the attacks go through at bayern, that's were the strength of the team comes from. There's no main man so to speak. Its an extremely balanced side with threats all over. He was one of the most impressive players in that run and in the big games the single most impressive one. He was better than ribbery and muller in the latter stages of the CL in 2012/2013 although they themselves played quite well. Since kroos' injury vs arsenal he's been nothing short of immense and on the form he's carried, there's no better RW in the world, let alone at bayern. Honestly, you're just way off the mark with these assertions and wouldn't be surprised if you were one of those that thought pep joining bayern would threaten his spot in the team. Muller and Ribber more significantly more important than him in that run in? Not a chance.

Kicker magazine had Müller as the best of the 3 in their winger ranking 2012/13 and nobody complained. Prior to the final Robben has scored a 3:0 and a 5:0 and assisted none of the goals - Robben is no playmaker so he can be judged after his productivity...

The league was already done when Robben "arrived" into the season. And yes, he scored the 1:0 in the Cup quarter finals against Dortmund - but the Cup final was a Gomez-Müller-Lahm show.

Robben did not assist or score a goal since starting March when Müller was not on the pitch. Mandzukic did not score a goal without him. It was the same in 2011/12. And Robben looked good in every match and probably was the best player - but you do not win only looking good.

 

[Balu]

There isn't a player who all the attacks go through at bayern, that's were the strength of the team comes from. There's no main man so to speak. Its an extremely balanced side with threats all over. He was one of the most impressive players in that run and in the big games the single most impressive one. He was better than ribbery and muller in the latter stages of the CL in 2012/2013 although they themselves played quite well. Since kroos' injury vs arsenal he's been nothing short of immense and on the form he's carried, there's no better RW in the world, let alone at bayern. Honestly, you're just way off the mark with these assertions and wouldn't be surprised if you were one of those that thought pep joining bayern would threaten his spot in the team. Muller and Ribber more significantly more important than him in that run in? Not a chance.

You continue to be wrong. I've ridiculed pretty much everyone who suggested that Robben will be sold and always said that he's a very important part of Pep's plans. That doesn't mean that he's more important than Ribery and Müller though. You're simply way off the mark if you believe that Robben was more influential in the team than Ribery and Müller since he came on for Kroos in the first leg against Juve last year.

 

[Piratesoup]

You continue to be wrong. I've ridiculed pretty much everyone who suggested that Robben will be sold and always said that he's a very important part of Pep's plans. That doesn't mean that he's more important than Ribery and Müller though. You're simply way off the mark if you believe that Robben was more influential in the team than Ribery and Müller since he came on for Kroos in the first leg against Juve last year.

Spot on, as usual.

In the past years, Ribery was the most influental player throughout the seasons, while Robben, while being great in his own right, had the standout superstar moments. Müller is the pivot around which the offense can really flourish. While he was outshined individually by both Robben and Ribery in many games his contribution is just as, if not more, to the game (I always like to refer to one of my favorite football blogs at this point: www.goalimpact.com).

It's really hard to imagine any of the three being benched, but if, as Balu said, everybody's fit, Robben seems the be the most expendable of the three. However, Robben is on an incredible run and injury free for the longest time in his carreer, while Ribery not only underperformed since his injury early in the year, but actually played like a sack of manure in many games. I can't remember him being this bad for this long and I fear the back problem won't really help with that. So status quo, I'd probably bench him.

 

[Blackwidow]

Lewandowki just scored a real great goal.

Didi Hamann just twittered that it was the coolest goal he has ever seen. I would not go that far - but it was very good...

I am sure there will be gifs.

 

[gofelx]

Ah ok you were faster

 

[Balu]

What a strange game.

 

[Piratesoup]

What this game taught us: Lewandowski is badass.
Nothing else was learned today.

 

[Blackwidow]

2007 and 2015

 

[Melvyn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ep-Guardiola-lays-law-strict-fines-squad.html

Pep Guardiola has implemented a strict regime of discipline on his Bayern Munich players in a bid to mentally toughen them for the new season.

The squad were subjected to a talk from their head coach at the beginning of the season, in which he outlined his new stick over carrot approach, and reportedly told them, 'from now on, this is all completely compulsory'.

At the centre of the new idea is a rigorous system of fines for small indiscretions, which the German press have christened 'Guardiola's punishment catalogue'. Punishable indiscretions involve arriving late to team meetings, not observing dress codes, failing to put dirty clothes in laundry bins, and taking phone calls on the first floor of Bayern's training ground HQ on Sabener Strasse.

Players will receive a €250 fine for committing an offence on one occasion, with the size of the fine going up by another €250 with every repeat offence. Captain Philipp Lahm is said to be in charge of collecting the fines from offending players.

Fines will also be handed out to players who are deemed to be overweight, and to those who fail to eat within an hour of the end of a training session or a match. This last point is reported to be particularly important to Guardiola.

On the advice of Bayern's dietician Mona Nemmer, the players should be eating pasta dishes within an hour of finishing work, but many avoid doing so, in order to eat with their families when they return home. This has clearly begun to frustrate the Guardiola.

The stricter discipline has been taken as a direct response to Bayern's Champions League collapse last season. In April, director of sport Matthias Sammer complained that the atmosphere at the club was too friendly, describing it as a 'cuddly oasis'.

His worst fears were confirmed when the team slumped to a 4-0 humiliation at the hands of Real Madrid days late. Having already won the Bundesliga by March, many saw that defeat as a psychological failure.

Indeed, Guardiola admitted as much himself. In a new biography dealing with his first year at Bayern, the Spaniard is quoted saying that he and his players became too emotional about the Real game, which ultimately led to their downfall.

Hence the new, more ruthless approach. With a plethora of early season injuries to deal with, as well a lack of pre-season preparation for his World Cup winners, Guardiola is also keen to make sure the side is as fit as possible. Lahm explained the new regime in those terms.

'We're not used to starting the season having trained so little. After such a short holiday, it's difficult to be at 100 per cent' said the Bayern captain.

Despite having won the Double in his first season in Munich, Guardiola knows that his time at Bayern will be judged primarily on the Champions League. He is desperate to avoid the same physical and psychological collapse which embarrassed his team last season.

As the new season gets under way, it's out with the cuddly oasis, and in with the Bavarian bootcamp.

 

[Joga Bonito]

He has a tough group to navigate now doesn't he. City are getting more experienced in Europe and were one goal away from topping the group last season. Roma seems to be a fine team under Garcia and they will have something to play for when they meet 'mercenary' Mehdi's new team. Travelling to Russia to play isn't the easiest of prospects either. Not saying they won't qualify but there is serious competition and there is a chance they might finish second or even fail to qualify. I think CL performances will be vital for Pep this season after the way they went out last season.

 

[Swaters16]

I understand wanting the players to eat immediately after as it's probably proven to be most effective but I'd be pissed if I was going to be fined because I wanted to eat with my family. Bad idea if you ask me. Surely he could have easily compromised in some way. Or taking phone calls on the first floor, what's the point in fining people for that. It just seems like a lot of his rules are incredibly annoying more than necessary