Russia Discussion

Raoul said:
You're beginning to derail this thread. Either get back on topic or stay out of it.
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I never said anything off topic, I was discussing an issue you brought up initially about RT's credibility. But apparently if you don't bash Putin here then you're going off-topic.

Not surprised about your position though.
 
Danny1982 said:
I never said anything off topic, I was discussing an issue you brought up initially about RT's credibility. But apparently if you don't bash Putin here then you're going off-topic.

Not surprised about your position though.
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Yes you were. Now move along.
 
Slavyansk’s grave reveals Ukraine’s wounds

In the centre of Slavyansk, near the old Jewish cemetery, an excavator digs a huge hole six-feet deep as a crowd looks on, waiting for the earth to yield its gruesome secret.

Police are exhuming the bodies of 14 people – 13 men and 1 woman – thought to be victims of the pro-Russian rebels who occupied the city for nearly three months. The site is one of a number of mass graves dotted in and around Slavyansk, a town of 140,000 souls that was until recently the militants’ main stronghold and a focal point of the war in eastern Ukraine.

Since rebel forces left Slavyansk earlier this month, normal life has gradually returned. Water, gas and electricity are being restored, and residents who fled the daily bombardments are coming home.

But the mass grave, and the victims within, suggest the war’s dark legacy will long endure in this nondescript industrial town, where the population has been left dumbfounded by the violence.

Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s interior minister, came from Kiev to watch the bodies being exhumed. Speaking to reporters, he placed the blame for Slavyansk’s strife firmly on the shoulders of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“The people buried here are victims of Putin’s terrorism,” he said. “If he hadn’t armed these rebels, and filled their heads with hatred and propaganda, they wouldn’t have killed anyone.”

The bodies have not been identified. Authorities say four of them were congregants of a small Protestant church in Slavyansk, abducted by militants after a Sunday morning service on June 8. Police say they were falsely accused of helping the Ukrainian army and shot the following day.

Human rights groups have accused the rebels of systematically kidnapping, beating up and sometimes torturing activists and residents suspected of supporting Kiev. Some are believed to have been summarily executed.

The four Protestant men’s bodies ended up in the city morgue. But with Slavyansk’s electricity supply knocked out by shelling, and the morgue’s refrigeration system broken down, they were later taken out and buried in an unmarked grave near the town’s Jewish cemetery, say authorities.

On Thursday, the site was covered with wreaths made out of red and yellow roses, and large photographs of the four dead men – two of whom were sons of the local Protestant pastor. A relative, Nikolai Dombrovsky, stood by, watching the excavation work. “The people who did this were drug addicts, people who never worked, who were full of envy,” he said. “They are animals.”

Slavyansk is now a city of deep divisions. Though many residents have welcomed the return of Ukrainian rule, others nurture a deep mistrust of Kiev. The resentment that prompted some to take up arms has not gone away.

Many rebel leaders, including Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov, the self-styled defence minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, are Russian. But many of the rank-and-file were local people. Some have disappeared, others simply took off their military garb and melted into the civilian population.

“I know one man who used to stand on the barricades – he’s now selling fish in the market,” says Vitaly Kiashko, Slavyansk council’s chief architect.

Some are eager to settle scores. Boxes have appeared in public places for local people to drop anonymous denunciations of suspected rebels.

Meanwhile, the city’s institutions are being systematically purged of rebel sympathisers. An investigative commission from Kiev is subjecting all Slavyansk’s policemen to a lie-detector test, to establish whether they collaborated with the militants.

Igor Rybalchenko, Slavyansk’s acting chief of police, said the eight policemen who openly sided with the separatists have disappeared. But there may well be others. “Some of them will be fired, some will be prosecuted,” he says.

As law and order is re-established, the full extent of the anarchy that prevailed when Slavyansk was under rebel rule is becoming clear. Mr Rybalchenko’s force is receiving 70-90 statements a day from victims of crime. “It’s mainly robbery, theft, stolen cars, and damage to property during the shelling,” he says.

Mr Kiashko, the architect, says all those fought and killed for the rebel cause must go to prison. “Even those who praised President Putin and gave out leaflets supporting independence for Donetsk should be punished,” he says.

“They should be given a shovel, a broom and a wheelbarrow,” he says, “and told to clear up the mess they made.”

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/186efe6c-13e7-11e4-b46f-00144feabdc0.html
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Or if you prefer more pravda in your news: http://rt.com/news/175804-slavyansk-mass-grave-accusations/
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28637569


If the Russians are going to act to support the separatists directly they are probably going to do it soon. Air force exercises and Ukrainian troops across the Russian border and a claim earlier in the week that Ukrainian troops were being shelled by Russian artillery from inside Russia.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28637569


If the Russians are going to act to support the separatists directly they are probably going to do it soon. Air force exercises and Ukrainian troops across the Russian border and a claim earlier in the week that Ukrainian troops were being shelled by Russian artillery from inside Russia.
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I agree that if something happens in terms of a proper war or Russian invasion, it will need to happen soon as the Ukrainians are gradually chipping away at separatist positions to where they basically just hold Donetsk and Lugansk, with the latter cut off from basic services. Once both fall, it will either trigger a complete Russian withdrawal or a full on Russian invasion, which will almost certain trigger broader sanctions.
 
East Ukraine city dying under siege

Residents say the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk is dying. The power grid was completely down Monday, the city government said, and fuel is running dry.

Store shelves are emptying fast, and those who haven't managed to flee must drink untreated tap water. With little medicine left, doctors are sending patients home.

As Ukrainian government forces slowly tighten their ring around the city — one of two major pro-Russian rebel strongholds — traveling in and out has become a perilous undertaking.

In an impassioned statement released over the weekend, mayor Sergei Kravchenko described a situation that is becoming more unsustainable by the day.

"As a result of the blockade and ceaseless rocket attacks, the city is on the verge of a humanitarian catastrophe," Kravchenko said. "Citizens are dying on the streets, in their courtyard and in their homes. Every new day brings only death and destruction."

Luhansk, a city of more than 400,000 people at peacetime, now has seen its population dwindle as citizens flee violence and deprivation. Located about an hour's drive from Russia, which Ukraine insists is supplying rebels with weapons and manpower, Luhansk is being fiercely fought over by all sides of the conflict.

Shelling is a daily occurrence and the targets apparently quite random. On Saturday, eight buildings were damaged by rockets. These included a school, a supermarket and several multistory apartment blocks, Luhansk city government said.

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http://news.yahoo.com/east-ukraine-city-dying-under-siege-180159011.html

What happened to that rage about "Assad bombing randomly and besieging towns to force them to surrender"? Does anybody care here if there is a humanitarian crisis or what tactics Kiev is using to make advances into rebels territory?
 
Danny1982 said:
http://news.yahoo.com/east-ukraine-city-dying-under-siege-180159011.html

What happened to that rage about "Assad bombing randomly and besieging towns to force them to surrender"? Does anybody care here if there is a humanitarian crisis or what tactics Kiev is using to make advances into rebels territory?
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You must really try harder with your half-thought out wummery. For one, the Ukrainian government is now democratically elected, and attempting to repel an insurgency from a foreign country. Assad, a dictator, has zero international legitimacy, nor do Syrian "elections". As such the two situations aren't remotely similar. And that's without going into the use of chemical weapons or dropping barrel bombs in civilian populations, nor the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians.
 
Raoul said:
You must really try harder with your half-thought out wummery. For one, the Ukrainian government is now democratically elected, and attempting to repel an insurgency from a foreign country. Assad, a dictator, has zero international legitimacy, nor do Syrian "elections". As such the two situations aren't remotely similar. And that's without going into the use of chemical weapons or dropping barrel bombs in civilian populations, nor the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians.
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That sounds familiar doesn't it?

Did the Eastern parts of Ukraine take part in the elections? Assad was also elected recently, and the scenes of the Syrians voting even outside Syria makes a strong case for him as well.

The parts of Ukraine that are uprising and fighting now are the same parts that elected Yanukovych with 80%+ of the votes, before he was ousted in the coup. What's happening now isn't exactly the riddle of the Sphinx.

And you're just confirming the point I'm making here. The rage about Syria was not for "humanitarian reasons", but about how some view the regime in Syria. When you like the regime then all is fair game.

If you take a step back and look again at both cases, you'll see that the situation is very similar really, the only difference is Al-Qaeda is not involved in Ukraine.
 
Danny1982 said:
That sounds familiar doesn't it?

Did the Eastern parts of Ukraine take part in the elections? Assad was also elected recently, and the scenes of the Syrians voting even outside Syria makes a strong case for him as well.

The parts of Ukraine that are uprising and fighting now are the same parts that elected Yanukovych with 80%+ of the votes, before he was ousted in the coup. What's happening now isn't exactly the riddle of the Sphinx.

And you're just confirming the point I'm making here. The rage about Syria was not for "humanitarian reasons", but about how some view the regime in Syria. When you like the regime then all is fair game.

If you take a step back and look again at both cases, you'll see that the situation is very similar really, the only difference is Al-Qaeda is not involved in Ukraine.
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The people in Donbass were deprived of their right to vote by the insurgency. If they wanted to, they had to travel through fighting into safer areas to vote, which was not likely. That has no bearing on the legitimacy of the election, as polls clearly show a vast majority of Ukrainians, including those in Donbass don't want a Russian insurgency, nor a Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory.

On the other hand, Assad's election is completely illegitimate and unrecognized, so that's a non starter. Even if there was no war in Syria, any attempt at an election would be the usual rubber stamping of a dictatorship, as opposed to a proper election with multiple candidates and a vibrant policy debate.

Comparing a democratically elected government with an authoritarian dictatorship is laughable, and just illustrates your lack of depth in thinking.
 
Raoul said:
The people in Donbass were deprived of their right to vote by the insurgency. If they wanted to, they had to travel through fighting into safer areas to vote, which was no likely. That has no bearing on the legitimacy of the election, as polls clearly show a vast majority of Ukrainians, including those in Donbass don't want a Russian insurgency, nor a Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory.

Assad's election is completely illegitimate and unrecognized, so that's a non starter. Even if there was no war in Syria, any attempt at an election would be the usual rubber stamping of a dictatorship, as opposed to a proper election with multiple candidates and a vibrant debate.

In essence, you have no point.
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So could the Syrians in areas outsides the government control. Polls (even some Western reporters) also showed that Assad has the support of the majority of Syrians, who do not want their country to be overrun by Al-Qaeda.

If we go back to my original point, Kiev besieging towns, cutting water food and supplies, and bombing randomly in areas under rebels control (leading to a humanitarian crisis) is not different from what Assad was condemned for over and over. The two differences you mentioned (the use of chemical weapons which has never been proven to be Assad's doing, and the high death toll which is primarily because of Al-Qaeda's involvement and the support they receive from many countries) are not the major difference, even for you. If we supply the Ukrainian rebels with enough weapons and fighters from outside Ukraine, we will be able to prolong the conflict and thus raise the total death toll just like in Syria.

You mentioned the real reason why you think it's different, which has to do with Assad and the government in Kiev themselves (and how you view them) and not with what they're doing, and that was exactly my point.
 
Danny1982 said:
So could the Syrians in areas outsides the government control. Polls (even some Western reporters) also showed that Assad has the support of the majority of Syrians, who do not want their country to be overrun by Al-Qaeda.

If we go back to my original point, Kiev besieging towns, cutting water food and supplies, and bombing randomly in areas under rebels control (leading to a humanitarian crisis) is not different from what Assad was condemned for over and over. The two differences you mentioned (the use of chemical weapons which has never been proven to be Assad's doing, and the high death toll which is primarily because of Al-Qaeda's involvement and the support they receive from many countries) are not the major difference, even for you. If we supply the Ukrainian rebels with enough weapons and fighters from outside Ukraine, we will be able to prolong the conflict and thus raise the total death toll just like in Syria.

You mentioned the real reason why you think it's different, which has to do with Assad and the government in Kiev themselves (and how you view them) and not with what they're doing, and that was exactly my point.
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Al-Qaeda is irrelevant to the discussion as they only became a factor after Assad crushed peaceful demonstrations in the south. Its not exactly a secret that Assad is a minority dictator who rules with an iron fist, despite having the appearance of a quaintly aloof western technocrat. He had his chance to reform Syria years ago and opted for continued dictatorship, which is a direct precursor to what happened after 2011.

Back to Ukraine - The humanitarian situation is a concern and is a direct consequence of Russian meddling in eastern Ukraine. We know this because there was no such humanitarian concern before Russian operatives began fomenting separatism as a means to advance Putin's policy of destabilizing Ukraine. Remove the Russian forces and separatists, and the humanitarian situation will immediately improve.
 
Raoul said:
Al-Qaeda is irrelevant to the discussion as they only became a factor after Assad crushed peaceful demonstrations in the south. Its not exactly a secret that Assad is a minority dictator who rules with an iron fist, despite having the appearance of a quaintly aloof western technocrat. He had his chance to reform Syria years ago and opted for continued dictatorship, which is a direct precursor to what happened after 2011.

Back to Ukraine - The humanitarian situation is a concern and is a direct consequence of Russian meddling in eastern Ukraine. We know this because there was no such humanitarian concern before Russian operatives began fomenting separatism as a means to advance Putin's policy of destabilizing Ukraine. Remove the Russian forces and separatists, and the humanitarian situation will immediately improve.
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Al-Qaeda is relevant here because only in Syria it's proven that there are terrorist organizations (which are a threat to the whole world) fighting Assad, and now everybody even agrees that they're the main fighting force. But that's a whole another topic.

You missed what started this mess imo. It all started because of the coup that toppled a democratically elected president, who was elected predominantly by people living in the East and South of Ukraine. Also, yes, I agree, if you remove everybody who hates the current Ukrainian government then the conflict will be solved, but so will it in Syria.
 
Danny1982 said:
Al-Qaeda is relevant here because only in Syria it's proven that there are terrorist organizations (which are a threat to the whole world) fighting Assad, and now everybody even agrees that they're the main fighting force. But that's a whole another topic.

You missed what started this mess imo. It all started because of the coup that toppled a democratically elected president, who was elected predominantly by people living in the East and South of Ukraine. Also, yes, I agree, if you remove everybody who hates the current Ukrainian government then the conflict will be solved, but so will it in Syria.
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Even so, its not relevant to why Assad got himself into this mess, since his policies far pre-date the likes of ISIS walking in and setting up shop. But yes, off to the Syria thread.

On Ukraine - The mess was started by the democratically elected, then revolution-sacked Yanukovich. A highly corrupt individual who put his own personal interests ahead of his constituents. If there was any doubt about whether or not the revolution was legitimate, they have since been put to rest by the subsequent legitimate and broadly recognized election of Poroshenko, who was given a clear mandate to move Ukraine towards Europe and expel Russian insurgents from Ukrainian territory, which circling back to the original point, illustrates why Ukraine and Syria are miles apart in terms of comparable similarities.
 
Raoul said:
Even so, its not relevant to why Assad got himself into this mess, since his policies far pre-date the likes of ISIS walking in and setting up shop. But yes, off to the Syria thread.

On Ukraine - The mess was started by the democratically elected, then revolution-sacked Yanukovich. A highly corrupt individual who put his own personal interests ahead of his constituents. If there was any doubt about whether or not the revolution was legitimate, they have since been put to rest by the subsequent legitimate and broadly recognized election of Poroshenko, who was given a clear mandate to move Ukraine towards Europe and expel Russian insurgents from Ukrainian territory, which circling back to the original point, illustrates why Ukraine and Syria are miles apart in terms of comparable similarities.
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I disagree but I made the points I wanted to make.
 
Raoul said:
Even so, its not relevant to why Assad got himself into this mess, since his policies far pre-date the likes of ISIS walking in and setting up shop. But yes, off to the Syria thread.

On Ukraine - The mess was started by the democratically elected, then revolution-sacked Yanukovich. A highly corrupt individual who put his own personal interests ahead of his constituents. If there was any doubt about whether or not the revolution was legitimate, they have since been put to rest by the subsequent legitimate and broadly recognized election of Poroshenko, who was given a clear mandate to move Ukraine towards Europe and expel Russian insurgents from Ukrainian territory, which circling back to the original point, illustrates why Ukraine and Syria are miles apart in terms of comparable similarities.
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A revolution, by definition, cannot be legitimate.
 
This will all reach a tipping point soon. The Ukrainian military are quickly restoring control so Putin will either have to invade or look like a mug to his domestic audience. He's in a bit of a lose lose situation. Invade and become an international pariah and get yet more sanctions that choke the life out of the Russian economy, or don't invade and look like a loser at home, and lose the popularity gains he made from Sochi and land grabbing Crimea.
 
Raoul said:
This will all reach a tipping point soon. The Ukrainian military are quickly restoring control so Putin will either have to invade or look like a mug to his domestic audience. He's in a bit of a lose lose situation. Invade and become an international pariah and get yet more sanctions that choke the life out of the Russian economy, or don't invade and look like a loser at home, and lose the popularity gains he made from Sochi and land grabbing Crimea.
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You have that ability to spew nonsense and look important while doing it. Russians, by and large, wouldn't care whether invasion happens or not, in fact most would probably be more inclined to stay well clear. The majority of the population are happy with the Crimea takeover, which they consider justifiable, while southeast of Ukraine is nowhere near as pro-Russian and never will be. If he stops right there, Putin would be quite satisfied with his actions and feel he's done enough to dissuade NATO from encroaching into Russia's sphere of influence and has made sure Ukraine will spend a very long time getting into EU.
 
antihenry said:
You have that ability to spew nonsense and look important while doing it. Russians, by and large, wouldn't care whether invasion happens or not, in fact most would probably be more inclined to stay well clear. The majority of the population are happy with the Crimea takeover, which they consider justifiable, while southeast of Ukraine is nowhere near as pro-Russian and never will be. If he stops right there, Putin would be quite satisfied with his actions and feel he's done enough to dissuade NATO from encroaching into Russia's sphere of influence and has made sure Ukraine will spend a very long time getting into EU.
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:lol:
 
antihenry said:
You have that ability to spew nonsense and look important while doing it. Russians, by and large, wouldn't care whether invasion happens or not, in fact most would probably be more inclined to stay well clear. The majority of the population are happy with the Crimea takeover, which they consider justifiable, while southeast of Ukraine is nowhere near as pro-Russian and never will be. If he stops right there, Putin would be quite satisfied with his actions and feel he's done enough to dissuade NATO from encroaching into Russia's sphere of influence and has made sure Ukraine will spend a very long time getting into EU.
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A shortsighted view as the sanctions related to Crimea and Donbass will cripple the Russian economy over time. There's little Putin can do to stop the flight of capital from Russian markets, at which point any fake popularity he has gained through his jingoistic land grabs will be wiped out by Russians feeling the pinch at home. Additionally, if he doesn't do more to help the rebels in Donbass (which at this point would require an invasion) he will look a bit impotent to the Ultranationlists back home, who are unhappy he isn't helping them to victory. So he's between a rock and a hard place here, as the sanctions aren't likely to be removed until both Donbass and Crimea are free of Russian troops. Long term, he has completely lost Ukraine, estranged his country from its primary economic markets in Europe, and squandered the good will of the US from partner to adversary. Truly a small man with small ideas.
 
Raoul said:
A shortsighted view as the sanctions related to Crimea and Donbass will cripple the Russian economy over time. There's little Putin can do to stop the flight of capital from Russian markets, at which point any fake popularity he has gained through his jingoistic land grabs will be wiped out by Russians feeling the pinch at home. Additionally, if he doesn't do more to help the rebels in Donbass (which at this point would require an invasion) he will look a bit impotent to the Ultranationlists back home, who are unhappy he isn't helping them to victory. So he's between a rock and a hard place here, as the sanctions aren't likely to be removed until both Donbass and Crimea are free of Russian troops. Long term, he has completely lost Ukraine, estranged his country from its primary economic markets in Europe, and squandered the good will of the US from partner to adversary. Truly a small man with small ideas.
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Of course, sanctions will hurt Russia, but not as much as you think. It's all about supply and demand. EU are far from happy about severing economic ties with Russia, despite what their politicians proclaim publicly, they simply bow down to the pressure from across the ocean, as they always did. And now that Putin hit back with his own sanctions against the countries that followed US lead, I'm looking forward to seeing how EU plans to replace Russian export of their goods and what European business will have to say about losing billions of dollars to the likes of China, Brazil, Iran, etc.

Turkey and Belarus are jumping at the head of the line, ready and willing to replace Poland and many others as an exporter of various food products for Russia. A number of South American countries are more than happy to replace EU countries that will lose a fortune by being shut off from the Russian market,and you better believe that China and Iran will try to claim their stake in there, too.

And last, but not least, we can still shut off the gas if it comes to it, but I doubt it will.

This isn't 1970s, and Russia is not some little shithole you can permanently cripple into submission with sanctions. The world is huge, there are various economic interests there, and as long as you have vast demand and money to spend, you'll never have a shortage of those willing to do business with you.
 
antihenry said:
Of course, sanctions will hurt Russia, but not as much as you think. It's all about supply and demand. EU are far from happy about severing economic ties with Russia, despite what their politicians proclaim publicly, they simply bow down to the pressure from across the ocean, as they always did. And now that Putin hit back with his own sanctions against the countries that followed US lead, I'm looking forward to seeing how EU plans to replace Russian export of their goods and what European business will have to say about losing billions of dollars to the likes of China, Brazil, Iran, etc.

Turkey and Belarus are jumping at the head of the line, ready and willing to replace Poland and many others as an exporter of various food products for Russia. A number of South American countries are more than happy to replace EU countries that will lose a fortune by being shut off from the Russian market,and you better believe that China and Iran will try to claim their stake in there, too.

And last, but not least, we can still shut off the gas if it comes to it, but I doubt it will.

This isn't 1970s, and Russia is not some little shithole you can permanently cripple into submission with sanctions. The world is huge, there are various economic interests there, and as long as you have vast demand and money to spend, you'll never have a shortage of those willing to do business with you.
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EU (or the United States of Europe) will live to regret their submission to the US as the European politicians are driving the continent to an economic and moral disaster. They should be an important voice in the world but since Marshall they are just the Yankee's floorcloth. Good post otherwise especially when pointing at the market opportunities in the east.
 
The "market opportunities in the east" sound good but are more difficult than some have suggested. Take the new gas deal with China for instance. They still have to build a pipeline to transfer the gas, which will take billions and years, and even when its finished, the profit margins negotiated with the Chinese are quite low. There will not be an adequate substitute for doing business with Europe in that regard. Ultimately, Putin will come to his senses or else take Russia off a cliff.
 
India is also one of if not Russias single largest trade partner.

India. The EU and the US have for lack of a better term, shit the bed on this. The EU is cutting off its nose to spite its face. Russia as previously mentioned has more than enough alternative trade partners that are probably piddling themselves with glee at their opportunity to get in bed with the Russian market.

For the time being the EU needs Russia more than Russia needs it. Fuel sources are a finite commodity and everyone wants them. The EU cutting itself off from one of the worlds biggest suppliers is short sighted. Russia will have no shortage of buyers for its gas and oil. All over an illegal coup.
 
The cost/benefit of doing business with Russia will not be worth it for Europe if Russian policies destabilize Europe and the country becomes a defacto successor to the Soviet Union. Poland and the Baltics are already nervy about the new wave of neo-Imperialism coming out of Moscow. The root cause of all of this is Putin's idea of Russian exceptionalism. Rather than introduce necessary reforms years ago, he opted to go authoritarian and use nationalism and state capitalism as a device to measure Russian success, which has led him to seek popularity by doing things like invading Ukraine, annexing land that is officially recognized as part of Ukraine, and destablizing other areas of the country etc. The Europeans were living in a bucolic fantasy world where they thought this sort of thing ended 70 years ago, and have good reason to be concerned at the realization that a corrupt, nuclear armed mafia state dripping in self-righteous of nationalism is beginning to invade its neighbors.
 
So these food trucks from Russia.

Is anybody else so bitter and cynical that they just assume they will be fired upon in east Ukraine and there will be the inevitable blame game from the separatists / Ukrainian government as to who is to blame. (blame game two... The sequel to the plane disaster)

Meanwhile Moscow will just March 50,000 troops and tanks over the boarder to "escort them safely" for the duration of the trip

And then when those troops get fired on (blame game three... This time it's war) then there will be a similar situation to chrimea

Perhaps I am just a cynic... And I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling about this situation - particularly as so much international focus is on the middle east right now
 
Obviously a ploy to prevent the rebels from getting completely routed in Donetsk and Luhansk.
 
sun_tzu said:
So these food trucks from Russia.

Is anybody else so bitter and cynical that they just assume they will be fired upon in east Ukraine and there will be the inevitable blame game from the separatists / Ukrainian government as to who is to blame. (blame game two... The sequel to the plane disaster)

Meanwhile Moscow will just March 50,000 troops and tanks over the boarder to "escort them safely" for the duration of the trip

And then when those troops get fired on (blame game three... This time it's war) then there will be a similar situation to chrimea

Perhaps I am just a cynic... And I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling about this situation - particularly as so much international focus is on the middle east right now
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They won't even actually have to shoot. They'll just have their actors from Crimea put together a scene of an ambush and the plaster it all over the news in Russia.
 
Wonkachenko (Poroshenko) says that the Ukrainian military destroyed APCs that tried to cross into Ukraine from Russia last night at the same place the aid convoy came across. No pictures or anything with it.
 
Sir Matt said:
Wonkachenko (Poroshenko) says that the Ukrainian military destroyed APCs that tried to cross into Ukraine from Russia last night at the same place the aid convoy came across. No pictures or anything with it.
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This has to be the dumbest, most ill conceived Trojan horse in history. Just shows what utter disarray the Russians are in.
 
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